Electric vehicles and towing

[ontheplane]

Is the car leased or on Finance - if so you have a Tri-partite agreement - have you tried rejecting it with them rather than Tesla.

But it is a very difficult one.

 

[ontheplane]

We had to respray a car 4 times for a customer who kept finding faults (although there really weren't any by the time we finished) the customer just kept saying it was a different colour and was "ripply" - it wasn't!

So we ended up having to accept their rejection of it. But I dont' think it was genuine - the customer took delivery and then came back next day saying they had split from their partner and didn't want the car anymore - when we explained that we didn't own it any more, the finance co did and they would need to speak to them, that's when all the "paint defects" came out of the woodwork - so not really the same as your (genuine) issues.

 

[Somerset Jim]

Is the car leased or on Finance - if so you have a Tri-partite agreement

No, I bought it outright so it’s just little old me!

 

[ontheplane]

Shame - you'd have had way more options.

 

[ontheplane]

Then it's you vs dealer sadly - although the dealer is Tesla owned so this helps.

Have they tried to fix it an failed?

 

[madabouttheboat]

Nope - Octopus do an electric car tariff - 5p between midnight and 6am

I am not on it, I don’t have a charger at home as I can usually charge at work - and we have a local free public charger...

But I am now furloughed, and so am thinking of getting the octopus one but holding out to see what Bulb are going to offer - rumours are they are going to undercut Octopus.

View attachment 110819

You said that your 5p per unit rate is between midnight and 6am, but the graphic says it is between 12:30 and 04:30. Can you fully charge your car in four hours, or does some of the charge come at the 13.45p per unit rate?

 

[ontheplane]

Yep - so 12:00 - 6 is now "Go Faster" I think - Go is now 12:30 - 04:30.

I still don't have a home charger.... so I charge at the local Asda (£1.20 for a full "tank").

From totally flat as a pancake to 100% is theoretically 8.88 hours - however it slows over that last 5% quite a lot - I find nearer 9 and a half hrs.....

However I NEVER let it get that flat - no EV owner does.... I have gone below 20% once I think....

With the miles I currently do, I charge once a week from about 40% to full - and that takes around 6 hours.

If I had a home charger and plugged it in every evening (which I would) I would set it to charge only to 95% to preserve battery life. My daily commute would take about an hour to put the charge back in.

If you commute daily about 150miles - that much charge would use about 55% of the battery - that would go back in about 4 hours or so.


So for MOST people - 4hrs charging is more than enough. If you daily commute around 250 miles for example, then I would suggest you'd set your charger to come on at about 10 at night - 2 and a half hours at the higher rate (about 13p a KWH I believe) and then 4 hrs at the 5p rate, and then another couple of hours at 13p again.

The reason you'd do this is the battery accepts the charge the fastest between 20% charge and 80% charge - so you want that period during the cheapest tariff.

The total cost of the fill would then be more I agree - about £1.44 for the cheap stuff and about £4.68 on the higher tariff - £6.12 in total.

Assuming your ICE car does 40mpg - at £1.20 per litre that's 8.6 miles per litre - so £0.14 per mile
The EV would be £4.68 for 250 miles - or £0.018 per mile - about 1/10th the cost.

If (as I do) you live a 3 minute walk from a free (or almost free) charger - then it costs me £1.20 to take whatever I need - so assuming I charge from 40% to full thats about 170 miles for £1.20 - or £0.007 per mile - about 1/100th the cost of the fuel car.

If I was brave and filled from 10% to full for that same £1.20 then it would be 0.004 per mile - which is borderline immeasurably small.

Even with the removal of a free charger near to me - I have still put £18.50 of "fuel" in my car over the last 9100 miles

So up till now it's cost me £0.002 per mile.

That's before we get to 0% BIK this year and 1% BIK next year....... so as a company driver who also gets fuel paid by company, and who pays Child Maintenance and on 40% income tax - I will save around £33,000 over this last and next 2 years!

 

[ontheplane]

About a month back I did a comparison for someone looking at an A class Mercedes, who basically said that for him, there was no saving buying an EV.

So I did a comparison of an E-Niro to an A class. The E-Niro was way better equipped, in 4+ spec, and a roomier car, but it's the closest I could get to compare.

The A-Class - the 200 model with an auto, slightly slower to 60, but the closest I can get - the 250 is a bit quicker than the Niro so I picked the cheaper & more economical car.

Then to match the spec of the E-Niro on the A-Class, I had to add Distronic + which meant adding Premium Plus pack as well (all the features of which the Kia has as Standard). I haven't added the Ventilated seats, Full leather, Heated steering wheel 360 camera, full panoramic roof and so on that the Kia all has as standard.....

One of his arguments was that an EV was "£10,000 more for the same spec" - so all of this made the A-Class £36,730 - the E-Niro was £36,395 - and the eNiro is massively better specified and has a 7 year warranty

These figures were done a month ago - and the government has taken the £3000 grant away from EV's over £35,000 - but I am simply too lazy to do the whole thing again on a sub £35k EV - but in principle, go for an e-Niro "2" Extended Range (which is still better equipped than the Merc) and the figures still work (But the car is £4,000 cheaper!

I fully concede the Merc feels the classier product. However it does question his "Electric cars are £10,000 dearer argument!

Cost	A- Class A250 Auto + Distronic + and Premium Plus	E-Niro 4+
Purchase Price New	£36,330	£36,395
Servicing	probably £750 over 3 years?	Free for 3 years
Annual Road tax	£145	£0
Company Car Tax 40% taxpayer 2021-2022 2022-2023 2023-2024	£4504 ( £ 375.41 per month) not predicted to change, but if it does it will surely go up.	£145.58 ( £12.13 per month) £291.16 ( £24.26 per month) £291.16 (£24.26 per month)
Fuel benefit charge 2021 likely to increase slightly in 2022 and 2023	£2952 (£246 per month)	£0
Fuel Cost at £1.20 per litre at 12,000 per year	£1157.00 £1200 in year two assuming a small petrol price increase £1300 in year three assuming a small further price increase	N/A
Electricity cost assuming low use of free public chargers and using Octopus GO to charge at home at 5p Per KW		£157.89 Per Year - 12,000 miles at 3.8m per KWh (what I have averaged through last summer and this winter).
3 public rapid charges when away from home		£36
Servicing over 3 years	£ 750	Free - then estimated to be around £80 per year
Tyres	Much the same for both cars
Depreciation (Estimate)	A200 AMG line at Bristol, 3 1/2 yrs old and 12,000m in total £17,250 - so assume a 3 year old with 36,000m - around £15,000 Depreciation - £21,330	No 3 year old E-Niro's for sale - however a 2 year old E-Niro with 16,000 miles on is for sale for £28000 - was £33,000 when new, so £5000 depreciation in 2 years - so assume 3 years - depreciation of £7500 ??
	Total Costs as a Company Car Driver
As a company Car driver receiving all private fuel paid for by company over the three years	£ 22,368	£ 727.90
Important note - if you pay Child Maintenance as I do - you will also pay 16% on the "taxable benefit" - so also.....	16% x £55920 = £8947.20	16% of £1819.75 = £291.16
So, as a 40% taxpayer, paying Child Maintenance, total cost of the car to you ----	£31315.20 or £869.87 per month	£ 1019.16 or £28.31 per month
	Total Costs as a Private Owner
Fuel + Road Tax + servicing	£3657 + £450 + £750 = £ 4857	£ 474 + £0 + £0
Insurance (varies from person to person - but I had a quote of £287 for the Soul I drive) - the Merc a bit less	£250 for 3 yr £750 for 3 yr	£287 per yr - £861 for 3 yr
Depreciation	£21,000	£7500 Somewhat of a guess
Total Cost for 3 years	£26,607	£8835
Total Cost per Mile (36,000m in total)	£0.74 per mile	£0.24 per mile
Saving with the EV		£17,772 over 3 years

So if you have one as a company car AND you pay Child Maintenance as well then the difference is actually £26248 over the three years....... I think you can see why I went for an Electric Car from work!!

I haven't seen many comparisons like this - but hopefully it helps someone...?

 

[madabouttheboat]

About a month back I did a comparison for someone looking at an A class Mercedes, who basically said that for him, there was no saving buying an EV.

So I did a comparison of an E-Niro to an A class. The E-Niro was way better equipped, in 4+ spec, and a roomier car, but it's the closest I could get to compare.

The A-Class - the 200 model with an auto, slightly slower to 60, but the closest I can get - the 250 is a bit quicker than the Niro so I picked the cheaper & more economical car.

Then to match the spec of the E-Niro on the A-Class, I had to add Distronic + which meant adding Premium Plus pack as well (all the features of which the Kia has as Standard). I haven't added the Ventilated seats, Full leather, Heated steering wheel 360 camera, full panoramic roof and so on that the Kia all has as standard.....

One of his arguments was that an EV was "£10,000 more for the same spec" - so all of this made the A-Class £36,730 - the E-Niro was £36,395 - and the eNiro is massively better specified and has a 7 year warranty

These figures were done a month ago - and the government has taken the £3000 grant away from EV's over £35,000 - but I am simply too lazy to do the whole thing again on a sub £35k EV - but in principle, go for an e-Niro "2" Extended Range (which is still better equipped than the Merc) and the figures still work (But the car is £4,000 cheaper!

I fully concede the Merc feels the classier product. However it does question his "Electric cars are £10,000 dearer argument!

Cost	A- Class A250 Auto + Distronic + and Premium Plus	E-Niro 4+
Purchase Price New	£36,330	£36,395
Servicing	probably £750 over 3 years?	Free for 3 years
Annual Road tax	£145	£0
Company Car Tax 40% taxpayer 2021-2022 2022-2023 2023-2024	£4504 ( £ 375.41 per month) not predicted to change, but if it does it will surely go up.	£145.58 ( £12.13 per month) £291.16 ( £24.26 per month) £291.16 (£24.26 per month)
Fuel benefit charge 2021 likely to increase slightly in 2022 and 2023	£2952 (£246 per month)	£0
Fuel Cost at £1.20 per litre at 12,000 per year	£1157.00 £1200 in year two assuming a small petrol price increase £1300 in year three assuming a small further price increase	N/A
Electricity cost assuming low use of free public chargers and using Octopus GO to charge at home at 5p Per KW		£157.89 Per Year - 12,000 miles at 3.8m per KWh (what I have averaged through last summer and this winter).
3 public rapid charges when away from home		£36
Servicing over 3 years	£ 750	Free - then estimated to be around £80 per year
Tyres	Much the same for both cars
Depreciation (Estimate)	A200 AMG line at Bristol, 3 1/2 yrs old and 12,000m in total £17,250 - so assume a 3 year old with 36,000m - around £15,000 Depreciation - £21,330	No 3 year old E-Niro's for sale - however a 2 year old E-Niro with 16,000 miles on is for sale for £28000 - was £33,000 when new, so £5000 depreciation in 2 years - so assume 3 years - depreciation of £7500 ??
	Total Costs as a Company Car Driver
As a company Car driver receiving all private fuel paid for by company over the three years	£ 22,368	£ 727.90
Important note - if you pay Child Maintenance as I do - you will also pay 16% on the "taxable benefit" - so also.....	16% x £55920 = £8947.20	16% of £1819.75 = £291.16
So, as a 40% taxpayer, paying Child Maintenance, total cost of the car to you ----	£31315.20 or £869.87 per month	£ 1019.16 or £28.31 per month
	Total Costs as a Private Owner
Fuel + Road Tax + servicing	£3657 + £450 + £750 = £ 4857	£ 474 + £0 + £0
Insurance (varies from person to person - but I had a quote of £287 for the Soul I drive) - the Merc a bit less	£250 for 3 yr £750 for 3 yr	£287 per yr - £861 for 3 yr
Depreciation	£21,000	£7500 Somewhat of a guess
Total Cost for 3 years	£26,607	£8835
Total Cost per Mile (36,000m in total)	£0.74 per mile	£0.24 per mile
Saving with the EV		£17,772 over 3 years

So if you have one as a company car AND you pay Child Maintenance as well then the difference is actually £26248 over the three years....... I think you can see why I went for an Electric Car from work!!


I haven't seen many comparisons like this - but hopefully it helps someone...?

Interesting figures, and obviously quite specific to your circumstances. As a private buyer, who tends to buy cars at around 3 years old and sell them almost for scrap (circa £1K usually) at 12+ years old having done all my own maintenance and servicing and averaging, say, 10K miles a year, I guess my figures would look very different indeed. If I get time, I might even attempt to do it out of curiosity. The biggest question mark will be over the residual value of a 12+ year old EV and the possibility of battery replacement during my ownership.

 

[ontheplane]

Yep that's true.

Also a 3 year old car is fundamentally the same as a current one. Models change, the lights change, a bit of trim changes - but fundamentally a 3 year old car is pretty much the same. EV's not so.

Three years ago there was one EV that would do nearly 300 miles - Tesla Model S

Since then there has been a load come out - Kia - eNiro about 18 months / 2 years ago and SoulEV a year ago. Nissan Leaf e+, Zoe 50 and so on and so forth. The capabilities of these cars is night and day from the first Leaf of 2013 which could struggle to about 70 or 80 miles and that was it. Rapid charging is now a thing as well.

So you can't really compare them.

So for you to work it out you would need to decide if the savings was worth looking at a newer car or not?

Age of batteries I don't think is a biggie - the Tesla's and Niros are holding up brilliantly because their BMS (battery management systems) are way better than early Leaf's - those guys are down to 9 of the original 12 lights - whereas early Teslas dont' seem to have dropped anything really.

A 2016 Model S is still £33k though!

 

[madabouttheboat]

It was really interesting. I thought the EV would lose hands down for my specific circumstances, but it didn't. In my application, putting a Nissan Leaf up against a Seat Leon diesel, the Nissan would save around £4.5K over 9 years. Two things stand out though. 1. If, I had to buy a replacement battery during my ownership, (likely, as they have an 8 year warranty and a 10 year expected life) the EV would, potentially, end up costing more to run over the 9 years (depending on how the new battery affected resale). 2. Nearly all the cost of owning the EV is depreciation, so even if it sits on my drive for 9 years going nowhere it will still cost almost the same to own, whereas the larger part of ownership costs with the diesel is fuel, so it it sits on my drive for 9 years the ownership costs are hugely reduced. It means with the EV I would feel obliged to do 10k miles a year, or thereabouts, otherwise I would have been better off with a diesel. There are, of course, other unknowns, such as how EVs will be taxed as they become more popular, but I guess there are also unknowns with ICE cars insomuch as we don't know how fuel costs are going to change or indeed any 'environmental' taxes that may be introduced. Lastly there is the range issue. My driving pattern would simply not suit the likes of a Leaf, at least not the 3 year old examples I was looking at, so I would have to buy something much more expensive and that would completely skew the figures. Still interesting though, so thanks for putting that table up OTP.

 

[Somerset Jim]

Have they tried to fix it an failed?

Yes 3 attempts so far. Lost faith in them so took it to an approved body shop and they have noted that every panel bar the front bump will need to be redone. They are going to contact Tesla this coming week and we will see what Tesla say.

it was a little amusing when the guy making notes on the car had to go back into his office to get another sheet of A4 paper to continue noting the issues with the car.

 

[ontheplane]

Interesting.

Are we looking at a new Leaf or a used leaf?

The only really long range EV I can think of 18 months old is the E-Niro - The First editions were £33k new and are now £28 used - that's £5k depreciation in 18 months - the Seat will lose a hell of a lot more than that! In fact depreciation on the EV's is way less than an ICE car as far as I can see. Leaf e+ are also holding their money pretty well.

Also the battery in the car won't get to 10 years and be fine and then at 10 years 1 month be useless.

Most cars have a 7 or 8 year battery guarantee - so if it drops below 70% it will be replaced. If you got to a decent age (say 6 years from new) and the battery was down near 71% then I think you'd apply for a replacement - but if it's at 85% it's pretty safe to say it's going to be at 80% at about 12 years. Depletion is roughly linear. Plus you would never change the battery and then sell the car - you'd keep it for another 5 or 6 years.

Also don't forget there are people out there still happy to buy Leafs that started with a 22kwh battery 7 years ago that is down to about 20KWH now, which is only about 80m range.

There is also a very significant market for half decent used car batteries for use as Home powerwall storage. if my 64KWh battery fell to 30KWH it would still give me a 190m range - but it would be a great powerwall and I could just get a new one which would be partly paid for by selling or using my current battery!

May I see how you did your workings?

 

[ontheplane]

Yes 3 attempts so far. Lost faith in them so took it to an approved body shop and they have noted that every panel bar the front bump will need to be redone. They are going to contact Tesla this coming week and we will see what Tesla say.

it was a little amusing when the guy making notes on the car had to go back into his office to get another sheet of A4 paper to continue noting the issues with the car.

I think if they have had more than 1 go to fix it you have a decent claim for rejection there.

Have you spoken to a solicitor - do you have legal protection on your home, boat or car insurance?

 

[Somerset Jim]

I think if they have had more than 1 go to fix it you have a decent claim for rejection there.

Have you spoken to a solicitor - do you have legal protection on your home, boat or car insurance?

I have a solicitor on standby but want to see what happens with the bodyshop first.

The car itself drives really well and is a fun bit of kit so I’m hoping it will be sorted. If not then I’ll go down the route of rejection again and look for a different car altogether.

 

[ontheplane]

Yeh - such a shame if you really like the car!

 

[ontheplane]

1. If, I had to buy a replacement battery during my ownership, (likely, as they have an 8 year warranty and a 10 year expected life)

Here's a 7 year old Tesla that's done 143,000 miles - whilst it doesn't specifically say the battery is OK, it's saying the range is 313 miles which is more or less the same as the original.

I would be staggered if you had to replace the batteries. The very early leafs are down to about 70% now (10 years old) but they didn't have ANY battery temperature management nor did they have buffering. So the original leafs were 22KWh battery size and that's what you used. My Soul has a 67KWh battery but only 64KWh useable - they buffer off the top and bottom end so the battery doesn't deteriorate. I'm 9 months in and the last SOH (State of Health) I had done on the battery showed less than 0.01KWh drop off in 9 months (might just be down to the measuring it was that small).

 

[kashurst]

Batteries in EVs are an array of small 4V cells. If the car starts to loose range or exhibits a charging issue it will likely be one or two faulty cells not the whole array. In many makes of EV it is straightforward to take the "battery" out of the car, remove the top cover and replace any knackered cells individually. More and more independent garages popping up who specialise in EVs. So fears of a really big battery bill are diminishing.

 

[Bouba]

Batteries in EVs are an array of small 4V cells. If the car starts to loose range or exhibits a charging issue it will likely be one or two faulty cells not the whole array. In many makes of EV it is straightforward to take the "battery" out of the car, remove the top cover and replace any knackered cells individually. More and more independent garages popping up who specialise in EVs. So fears of a really big battery bill are diminishing.

That could be a big job, there are over 7000 cells in a Tesla, and aren’t car manufacturers distributing cells in all the nooks and crannies nowadays to reduce the battery profile and improve weight distribution

 

[Caraway]

so assuming I charge from 40% to full thats about 170 miles for £1.20 - or £0.007 per mile - about 1/100th the cost of the fuel car.

I make that 1/20th the cost of a car at £0.14 per mile.

Assuming your ICE car does 40mpg - at £1.20 per litre that's 8.6 miles per litre - so £0.14 per mile

Are all your calculations of savings done this way?