Electric inboard engine, equivelant diesel inboard.

[lustyd]

Their estimates (not guarantees!) are nothing to do with avoiding being sued, but stating energy consumption at an acceptable cruising speed close to what would be normal for a diesel engined boat of that size and type.

No, they chose it as a reasonable mix of speed and range for a specific type of usage. The graph allows you to work out range at various speeds, that’s why they give you the graph. They are underestimating all of these figures to be safe, and don’t allow for motor sailing or regen or even the reality that most installs use bigger banks for power. There’s a lot of space and weight in a diesel install so no reason to install tiny batteries other than money, but we’re not talking about money (well some anti electric folk are, to try and make their points).

Regardless, your continued reference to the range of electric as finite demonstrates that you still have not understood my original point. It's a renewable; there is no finite range since the renewable energy sources are on the boat. When the diesel is gone, the diesel is gone and no tank size will ever change that - you will eventually run out of fuel.

 

[flaming]

In a way I'm somewhat surprised that there hasn't been any real noise about regulatory pressure on leisure boats in the same way as there is in cars. I mean, if the argument in favour of banning new ICE cars after a certain date is principally climate change, then allowing new large motorboats that burn more diesel in a day than the average fiesta does in a year is not really logical, and certainly doesn't pass the "we're all in this together" sniff test...

My prediction is that we will start to hear noise about new build ICE boats being banned relatively soon, especially if we have a change of government.

As the vehicle transition accelerates, and more and more ULEZs appear, I can see the councils with picturesque harbours starting to wonder why they tolerate diesel fumes from old marine diesels but don't allow old diesel cars in their picture postcard seaside towns. Cue large fees for bringing your older diesel into certain harbours, that would of course spread fast... Couple of legal actions from the green lobby on air pollution where marinas are surrounded by houses and suddenly the marina operators are starting to look hard at particularly the older engines.

And all the time we're assuming that fuel for boats will remain readily available and affordable. That seems to be far from a given as road transport transitions away from ICE.

Of course, the timescale for this is probably at least a decade behind cars. So we have time for the technology to mature a bit. For the batteries to get better etc.

It's interesting though, if you look at the specs of that Salona 46, it has only 30KWh of battery. Given the relative size of a yacht and a car, that's really pretty small, much smaller than all mainstream family cars on sale today. Plenty of cars these days have 100KWh packs. On a yacht it's not really about weight or space, so it's just cost. As that cost comes down, which it is pretty rapidly, then the packs will grow. And especially if they start being designed in from the very start to use their weight as part of the ballast. Their stats says 65 miles at cruising speed from 30Kwh, so If you had 100Kwh of batteries you'd have nearly 200 miles of motoring. As a coastal cruiser that's more than enough. With that sort of battery bank, and a 13A socket on your home berth to charge up during the week the weekend cruiser would have absolutely no power worries. To be honest 70KWh would probably suit most people.

I can't wait. In all the time I've been sailing, nothing has cost me more time on the water, and more low level stress than issues with the diesel engine. Whether just not starting, not having cooling water, ingesting a plastic bag, dumping its oil in the bilge, going bang and ejecting a piston rod, throwing the water pump belt.... The thought of the auxiliary power being a quiet, reliable electric motor... Bring it on.

 

[lustyd]

burn more diesel in a day than the average fiesta does in a year is not really logical

I once sat on a Sunseeker that was about 50' at the boat show. The tank was 7000 litres. I asked the range and the rep told me 300NM.

That's 155 fills of a 45l car tank so for all but the most extreme cases well over a year!

I have to say though, the real drive for removing ICE cars is money, not the environment. There are alternatives to fossil fuels which can now be manufactured sustainably yet will never have a chance to be used anywhere but air travel and possibly boating. Plenty of pockets being lined by the change to EVs either directly in cases like Tesla, or indirectly though the many grants paid to companies which inevitably fail after spending the grant money on exec pay.

You're 100% right about the battery capacity. There's no reason prices won't come down rapidly once LiFePo4 production ramps up

 

[Tranona]

Regardless, your continued reference to the range of electric as finite demonstrates that you still have not understood my original point. It's a renewable; there is no finite range since the renewable energy sources are on the boat. When the diesel is gone, the diesel is gone and no tank size will ever change that - you will eventually run out of fuel.

I fully understand that. Where we differ is that I do not believe that property is particularly valuable for any other than a very small minority. This is for 2 main reasons. First the range for each "tankful" that you can generate is inevitably limited to the sorts of figures used by the makers - that is in the range of 50-100 miles and generally at speeds far less than one would consider adequate, particularly in adverse conditions. Secondly replacing that energy relies on unpredictable factors of sun and regeneration. If you can't sail fast or there is no sun you can't replace the energy you used.

Only time will tell if there is a sustainable market for the product with such unknowns. That is how development cycles go. A new development comes along that changes the the possibilities and widens the potential applications. In the boating business this means finding customers who will buy into this concept and fund a boat. Inevitably feedback is slow and for the next potential batch of buyers it could be 2 or 3 years before there is enough feedback to convince or otherwise.

My view all along has been that the developments of the last 5 years in motors, batteries and power generation have indeed opened up new possibilities and that currently it is the "proving" phase of development. However the main barrier of energy density has not been overcome and that whatever you do with motor efficiency and power generation you are still stuck with limited range per "tankful"

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think you have to look at boats with an electric motor in much the same way as one looks at domestic solar panels. In the majority of cases solar panels will reduce your dependancy on the grid and in a few special cases make you independent of it. A boat with an electric motor, solar panels and other generators can reduce your dependance on diesel in a special case if you are prepared to wait long enough and have the correct conditions you will be independent of diesel but the cost both financial and in time will be large.

 

[flaming]

My view all along has been that the developments of the last 5 years in motors, batteries and power generation have indeed opened up new possibilities and that currently it is the "proving" phase of development. However the main barrier of energy density has not been overcome and that whatever you do with motor efficiency and power generation you are still stuck with limited range per "tankful"

Other than cost, which is falling, is there any particular reason that a yacht could not be designed from the keel up to have a 100KWh battery bank, instead of the 30KWh fitted to that Salona? And a near 200 mile cruising range as a result?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Other than cost, which is falling, is there any particular reason that a yacht could not be designed from the keel up to have a 100KWh battery bank, instead of the 30KWh fitted to that Salona? And a near 200 mile cruising range as a result?

No there isn't it might be a considerable design challenge though.

 

[flaming]

No there isn't it might be a considerable design challenge though.

Not sure why, a 100KWh pack is not all that big, it fits under the floor of a moderate sized car. A suitable location, or locations, under the floorboards couldn't be that hard to find surely?

Would be interesting to investigate the viability of a hollow keel filled with battery, though I accept that certainly would be a design challenge!

 

[Supertramp]

Sailing (and cruising) for many is making the best of finite and varying resources. Those can be food, water, sunlight, battery capacity, diesel, space, sail area etc. We have grown used to making the finite become infinite in many areas of life. In practice, most of us would learn to adapt to new constraints or ways of using our boats. We have taken on board a lot of new technologies over recent decades and I'm certain more will come. And it will be new boat buyers and builders that shape the direction. Let's hope the battery repair and maintenance process is easier than on most cars. The bottom of the keel or bilge won't help that!

That said, I do like the feeling that I could motor 600 miles or punch a headwind for 4+ hours. But in the early days of my sailing we could never do that with outboards or small tank diesels but it didn't stop us cruising.

 

[Tranona]

Not sure why, a 100KWh pack is not all that big, it fits under the floor of a moderate sized car. A suitable location, or locations, under the floorboards couldn't be that hard to find surely?

Would be interesting to investigate the viability of a hollow keel filled with battery, though I accept that certainly would be a design challenge!

That is the most obvious approach but not consistent with today's design philosophy of shallow canoe body hulls and separate foils, one of which is also the ballast. What makes current cars work is the radical change in structural architecture which centres on the framework to hold the batteries also locating the propulsion units and wheels. Not dissimilar to the change from separate chassis to monocoque body of 70 years ago. On top of the battery/propulsion structure you then add a body.

With the current density of batteries the space required on a boat would mean that the distribution of other elements would have to be revised. I could imagine for example a long shallow trough running the length of the boat with the batteries in the central part and pod drive at the aft end and the boat built around this both above and below. As I suggested earlier the current battery technology and therefore energy density will likely only last less than 10 year and suspect its replacement will be at least twice as dense - that is half the size for the same capacity. That gives a possibility of doubling the range while still be able to fit within the current architecture of boats.

With my style of sailing I could almost live with electric like the Sadler 29 that Nestaway have built using an e Propulsion pod. Indeed when I started looking at a change in direction from the Bavaria I seriously considered a Shrimper 21 or a similar Cape Cutter with a pod drive. The electric bit did not put me off it was more whether I could live with the limitations of size and comfort (I am a big bloke!) of such a small boat in my declining years. Still slightly regret not going that way when I see all the Shrimpers in the club having so much fun while i am toiling away on my floating DIY garden shed.

 

[lustyd]

reduce your dependance on diesel in a special case if you are prepared to wait long enough and have the correct conditions you will be independent of diesel

Of course, there are places where you'll turn up with nothing but a diesel engine and have to wait until they build a fuel dock and a cash machine, which could be considerably longer than a day or two in the sun!

Not sure why, a 100KWh pack is not all that big, it fits under the floor of a moderate sized car. A suitable location, or locations, under the floorboards couldn't be that hard to find surely?

Would be interesting to investigate the viability of a hollow keel filled with battery, though I accept that certainly would be a design challenge!

100% agree. There's significant weight and size in a diesel setup. We carry 200kg of diesel, about 200kg engine, 30kg or more in spares and fluids and this consumes the entire space under the master bunk plus under the companionway steps. We also can't ignore that most boats already have three or more lead batteries that would dissapear and be replaced with the new larger bank so in terms of size and weight the first 6kWh are essentially free.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I can't wait. In all the time I've been sailing, nothing has cost me more time on the water, and more low level stress than issues with the diesel engine. Whether just not starting, not having cooling water, ingesting a plastic bag, dumping its oil in the bilge, going bang and ejecting a piston rod, throwing the water pump belt.... The thought of the auxiliary power being a quiet, reliable electric motor... Bring it on.

Bingo, that statement rang so many bells it sinerely puts me back in the Electric motor search. I echo all the above points of stress plus a few more like Diesel bug, bleeding the air changing filters etc. When I return home after 6 month sailing I jump in my car, turn the ignotion the engine starts so off I go. Do diesels really belong in bpats? Not to mention "Dirty Diesel" from shore side pumps.

It all dependss on whether the 3hm35 starts.

 

[ylop]

Other than cost, which is falling, is there any particular reason that a yacht could not be designed from the keel up to have a 100KWh battery bank, instead of the 30KWh fitted to that Salona? And a near 200 mile cruising range as a result?

I am sure it can, in fact, its probably the only way it becomes viable - much like high range EVs required significant redesign of cars and focus on how to save weight everywhere etc. You may well have hit the nail on the head with "design from the keel up" as it feels like a big heavy battery could in fact be part of a bolt on keel - perhaps a smart battery maker will realise that offering standard modular battery keels to boat builders is a good way to add value once standard batteries start to become commoditised and you need to differentiate.

However, I think it really will require a change in mindset about the design. Someone once explained to me that essentially large parts of modern yacht's internal layout are designed around the location of the engine. Electric could change that. We might also see more emphasis on weight saving - perhaps all that wood that makes up interiors has had its day. BUT if that is the case then marina berths are going to become essential (= even more expensive) as solar/wind/regen is probably not reliable enough for swing moorings. The alternative would be removable suitcase size portable batteries which could be swapped between boat and shore. I'm surprised nobody had developed a standard unit for doing that with cars to extend their range, so there may be a technical issue.

 

[ylop]

Bingo, that statement rang so many bells it sinerely puts me back in the Electric motor search. I echo all the above points of stress plus a few more like Diesel bug, bleeding the air changing filters etc. When I return home after 6 month sailing I jump in my car, turn the ignotion the engine starts so off I go. Do diesels really belong in bpats? Not to mention "Dirty Diesel" from shore side pumps.

It all dependss on whether the 3hm35 starts.

I'm not opposed to electric motors on boats, but retrofitting one to a typical yacht feel like putting an electric motor in a 1980's landrover defender... an interesting experiment/learning project but surely not economically or technically a sensible solution versus either upgrading with a similar engine to you currently have or buying something designed for electric in the first place. A hybrid might be an option - but my gut feel is its the worst of both worlds.

Thinking about it - the boats where it makes most sense would be racing boats that just need the electric for getting in/out of harbour etc. they could live with short range and their use pattern probably lends itself to overnight charging.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I'm not opposed to electric motors on boats, but retrofitting one to a typical yacht feel like putting an electric motor in a 1980's landrover defender... an interesting experiment/learning project but surely not economically or technically a sensible solution versus either upgrading with a similar engine to you currently have or buying something designed for electric in the first place. A hybrid might be an option - but my gut feel is its the worst of both worlds.

Thinking about it - the boats where it makes most sense would be racing boats that just need the electric for getting in/out of harbour etc. they could live with short range and their use pattern probably lends itself to overnight charging.

Just downloaded an article by the owners of UMA. They stated that they never run their electric propulsion system for more than about 15 minutes so long distance cruising boats can reap the same advantage. Their system was self build using motors and parts from the fork-lift and golf-cart industry. The cost will come down when auto research kicks in big time.and used motors etc are recycled with improved versions. Marine wise it could be a financial bargain catching the crumbs from the auromotive table.

Their motor cost $500 used. The whole system cost them $1,500. It replaced a diesel engine.

 

[lustyd]

The alternative would be removable suitcase size portable batteries which could be swapped between boat and shore. I'm surprised nobody had developed a standard unit for doing that with cars to extend their range, so there may be a technical issue.

It's not a technical issue, it's just unnecessary. Charge times aren't that long and range allows for driving longer than is safe anyway. For power boats it might be an issue but for sailing boats range can and is sufficient for many use cases. Sure, if you decide to go to the Scillies for the weekend from Brighton and then need to be back on Monday morning against wind and tide you'll struggle, but that's poor planning and is a use-case where diesel still makes sense, although it's still not advisable with diesel!

It's also unnecessary to put batteries in the keel, there is plenty of space on most boats for sufficient battery storage, especially once you remove the diesel tanks and associated pipes, filters and other paraphernalia. This has been demonstrated several times by builders, and shown off on YouTube to those open to the idea. Unfortunately flat Earthers are gonna flat Earth no matter what evidence you show them

 

[lustyd]

Just downloaded an article by the owners of UMA. They stated that they never run their electric propulsion system for more than about 15 minutes so long distance cruising boats can reap the same advantage. Their system was self build using motors and parts from the fork-lift and golf-cart industry. The cost will come down when auto research kicks in big time.and used motors etc are recycled with improved versions. Marine wise it could be a financial bargain catching the crumbs fro the auromotive table.

heir motor cost $500 used. The whole system cost them $1,500. It replaced a diesel engine.

Exceptionally out of date unfortunately. They now have an Oceanvolt worth tens of thousands of dollars, and are on their third electric motor for various reasons having given away the original in the UK. They motor for hours at a time sometimes on their battery bank and have a range of hundreds of miles. During their Svalbard trip they bought a petrol generator, which they didn't use on that trip but have subsequently used to extend range or recharge. When going longer distance under motor they usually motor sail which extends range considerably, only requiring low revs from the motor. They have detail on this in their forum for Patrons.

Also, technically, it replaced two diesel engines since they bought a second which also didn't work! Arguably both would have worked had Dan and Kika had knowledge of diesel engine repair.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Just downloaded an article by the owners of UMA. They stated that they never run their electric propulsion system for more than about 15 minutes so long distance cruising boats can reap the same advantage. Their system was self build using motors and parts from the fork-lift and golf-cart industry. The cost will come down when auto research kicks in big time.and used motors etc are recycled with improved versions. Marine wise it could be a financial bargain catching the crumbs from the auromotive table.

Their motor cost $500 used. The whole system cost them $1,500. It replaced a diesel engine.

They now have a proprietary electric drive with regeneration.

 

[lustyd]

Indeed, quite impressive regen at that. They've shared their numbers and it adds significant charge while sailing

 

[BurnitBlue]

Exceptionally out of date unfortunately. They now have an Oceanvolt worth tens of thousands of dollars, and are on their third electric motor for various reasons having given away the original in the UK. They motor for hours at a time sometimes on their battery bank and have a range of hundreds of miles. During their Svalbard trip they bought a petrol generator, which they didn't use on that trip but have subsequently used to extend range or recharge. When going longer distance under motor they usually motor sail which extends range considerably, only requiring low revs from the motor. They have detail on this in their forum for Patrons.

Also, technically, it replaced two diesel engines since they bought a second which also didn't work! Arguably both would have worked had Dan and Kika had knowledge of diesel engine repair.

That's a problem with the internet. Articles and info are rarely dated. Seriously I once downloaded the bus timetable and the local weather forcast. Both great, good sunny weather and a bus due in ten minutes. After an hour waitilng I walked home soaking wet.