eBorders - suggested action

[rallyveteran]

If your MP is likely to lose his seat

Don't want to waste time writing to my MP who is very likely to be unemployed by June next year.

...then you have an even better opportunity. Identify the candidate who is most likely to be elected in his place and write to him. Most of the switched on candidates have website and open channels of communication. This is the equivalent of getting in while the cement is still wet.

 

[rallyveteran]

E-Borders operates on exit as well as entry

I think there's a certain amount of hysteria about all this ... how often do you return from abroad in your boat?

The filing has to be done 24 hours in advance of both exit and re-entry and the UKBA could board on either direction, and indeed on coastal trips. But this thread is more about the need for advance filing than the activities of UKBA.

The vast majority of international trips by British-flagged yachts involve only people with a right to live in the UK. If the journey involves a round trip whereby the same people are aboard on both journeys I don't see why there needs to be any filing at all. Only if someone is leaving or joining the boat while abroad, or there is someone on board who needs a visa do I think information need be submitted. UKBA could concentrate on those vessels and enforce compliance by random boardings of those that have not filed passage plans.

 

[RupertW]

Being boarded

The volume of boardings may be new but leisure yachts have been fair game for boarding for a long time. I've been boarded twice in the 90s - once off La Rochelle by the French obviously and once off the Eddystone.

Both times they were armed and the British version was particularly aggressive looking with a rib containing a couple of green uniformed guys with guns kept pointing at us, accompanied by a larger patrol boat with foredeck mounted large machine gun which was also kept pointed at us throughout the boarding. The blue uniformed person who came aboard was nervous and not armed and went through charts and log book and a lot of questions before deciding that a quick look around the cabin was enough and that we wouldn't be fully searched.

Frankly it all looked more intimidating that it felt and the people in the rib looked looked more tense than we were. Perhaps because we trusted them not to do anything daft but they didn't know who was on board and what we were doing.

I mind idea of boardings much less than the idea that we have to register journeys all the time. That level of buraucracy will simply tag the willing and ignore the others. My inclination would be to try to avoid the whole thing by never once declaring exit or entry. Unless the French (or Spanish or Dutch or whatever) have systems which cross-check then it may work. In other areas of the world - Caribbean and the USA, I've been in and out in boats without a flag in the last few years and therefore no customs or passport checks as everybody assumes you are local.

 

[Koeketiene]

Unless the French (or Spanish or Dutch or whatever) have systems which cross-check then it may work.

Why would they spend any time/money/effort on this?
They're all part of the Schengen area.
What interest is it to them who enters/leaves the UK?

 

[Seven Spades]

I did - ours (Andrew Selous - Con - SW Beds) is all in favour of eBorders.
Being MP for a landlocked constituency over a hundred miles from the sea, I guess there aren't any votes in it.

I suggest you re-write to your MP, I don't expect any MP to be opposed to e-borders. Most MP are going to be in favour of strong border control.

What we have to oppose is the implementation of e-borders.

They should accept passage plans by VHF, particularly outgoing. Returning as boats should be less onerous as well. With modern computers there is no reason not to be able to profile boats returning from abroad in a matter of minutes. Then they can spot check those they wish to instead of harassing the same family seven times in a season who have not even been abroad.

Write to your MP expressing concern at the advanced notice and the lack of flexibility and labour the loss of liberty that goes with it and pointing that as a Conservative he should be concerned with that.

I think we ned to accept that it border controls are a good thing, but they should be designed to have a little impact on legitimate travellers as possible.

 

[rivonia]

What would happen IF you refused them boarding permission and kept on sailing to your port. Of course you would have told the where you were going. I do not think under those circumstances they would open fire. But what would happen?

Peter

 

[Seven Spades]

I've been googling for an hour now and can't find where all this stuff is promulgated .... give us a clue?
Regards
Boz

hey are not allowing any access to advanced proposals so that the legislation will not face any concerted opposition.

 

[DogWatch]

I suggest you re-write to your MP, I don't expect any MP to be opposed to e-borders. Most MP are going to be in favour of strong border control.

What we have to oppose is the implementation of e-borders.

They should accept passage plans by VHF, particularly outgoing. Returning as boats should be less onerous as well. With modern computers there is no reason not to be able to profile boats returning from abroad in a matter of minutes. Then they can spot check those they wish to instead of harassing the same family seven times in a season who have not even been abroad.

Write to your MP expressing concern at the advanced notice and the lack of flexibility and labour the loss of liberty that goes with it and pointing that as a Conservative he should be concerned with that.

I think we ned to accept that it border controls are a good thing, but they should be designed to have a little impact on legitimate travellers as possible.

I would rather not describe my absence from home over an unencrypted service to the stasi, I see what you are suggesting and in an honest world without scanners.. but knowing certain properties may be vacant for a three week period would be gold to certain types. no?

Yes we could give station ID, but we would still have to identify if the yacht is chartered, carrying friends or any number of situations that arise.

papers please?!

 

[st599]

I've read with interest Bruce Schneiers blogs on security theatre: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/beyond_security.html

Could we come up with a succinct email to him listing e-borders aims, implementation practicalities for yachtsmen and our concerns?

 

[Seven Spades]

I would rather not describe my absence from home over an unencrypted service to the stasi, I see what you are suggesting and in an honest world without scanners.. but knowing certain properties may be vacant for a three week period would be gold to certain types. no?

Yes we could give station ID, but we would still have to identify if the yacht is chartered, carrying friends or any number of situations that arise.

papers please?!

Some channels cannot be overheard, only one side of the conversation can be heard. If you are returning from abroad using your VHF to announce your return, it is a little paranoid to think that someone is going to be hanging around with a scanner (A normal VHF will not do) then have a whacking great mast like the coast guard to receive the signal, and will then know where you live. You would either have to have some very dodgy friends, in which case it is likely they would know you have gone away anyway.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

How will eborders effectively monitor the open border between the UK and the Republic of Ireland? Will there be travel controls within "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

No doubt many other points that I have missed.

I posted about this a couple of weeks ago.

The Eire/NI border will not be subject to eBorders notification, but any attempt to sail to or from Ireland and England, Wales or Scotland will be subject to the 24 hour notice of arrival or departure.

For the sake of eBorders, Northern Ireland will be treated like a foreign country and you will even have to notify travel to the non UK British dependencies like the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

 

[srm]

I posted about this a couple of weeks ago.

The Eire/NI border will not be subject to eBorders notification, but any attempt to sail to or from Ireland and England, Wales or Scotland will be subject to the 24 hour notice of arrival or departure.

For the sake of eBorders, Northern Ireland will be treated like a foreign country and you will even have to notify travel to the non UK British dependencies like the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

Can you give an official reference for this please as I do want to take this up with my MP. Border controls within the UK but not with another soverign state!

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Let me Google it for you.

Here is the bit about crossing from the republic to NI and from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which are outside the UK. There will be no border controls between the north and the south, but there will be controls between the Republic and the 'mainland'.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/t...vellingtocommontravelarea/travelarrangements/

I can't find it now, but there has been a number of posts on here about the need to notify the UK border Agency before departing to or arriving from Northern Ireland.

I have found this, "Q. What are the proposals concerning the Republic of Ireland, where there are very many cross border trips made daily from Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and England?

Agency response
e-Borders applies on all international voyages, which includes voyages between the UK and the Republic of Ireland." From here: http://www.rya.org.uk/ABOUTUS/WHATWEDO/LOBBYING/Pages/e-Borders.aspx

Liam Byrne an immigration minister said this: "Mr. Byrne: The addendum to the e-Borders contract will provide additional functionality to enable the agencies to:
capture Other Passenger Information (OPI) relating to 100 million passenger
journeys per year; perform sophisticated analysis (data mining) on the data held in the e-Borders database;
develop and run profiles against the passenger data that is received and held in the
system; and capture Domestic Travel Information (DTI) for all passengers travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, subject to the implementation of Section 14 of the Police & Justice Act 2006."
Page 12 on this pdf: http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-03980.pdf

 

[Kukri]

There was a time when I felt sorry for my Korean, Taiwanese and Japanese sailing friends who all had to put up with this sort of nonsense (because, in fairness, the first two are technically at war with their nearest neighbours!)

I never thought it would happen here, and I propose to take not the slightest notice of it.

 

[srm]

Let me Google it for you.

Here is the bit about crossing from the republic to NI and from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which are outside the UK. There will be no border controls between the north and the south, but there will be controls between the Republic and the 'mainland'.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/t...vellingtocommontravelarea/travelarrangements/

I can't find it now, but there has been a number of posts on here about the need to notify the UK border Agency before departing to or arriving from Northern Ireland.

I have found this, "Q. What are the proposals concerning the Republic of Ireland, where there are very many cross border trips made daily from Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and England?

Agency response
e-Borders applies on all international voyages, which includes voyages between the UK and the Republic of Ireland." From here: http://www.rya.org.uk/ABOUTUS/WHATWEDO/LOBBYING/Pages/e-Borders.aspx

Liam Byrne an immigration minister said this: "Mr. Byrne: The addendum to the e-Borders contract will provide additional functionality to enable the agencies to:
capture Other Passenger Information (OPI) relating to 100 million passenger
journeys per year; perform sophisticated analysis (data mining) on the data held in the e-Borders database;
develop and run profiles against the passenger data that is received and held in the
system; and capture Domestic Travel Information (DTI) for all passengers travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, subject to the implementation of Section 14 of the Police & Justice Act 2006."
Page 12 on this pdf: http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-03980.pdf

Many thanks for finding that. If I am reading it correctly (and its getting late) there will not be checks on yachts between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, only public transport checks (DTI) and 'data mining'. But yachts will have to report passages between UK and the Republic even though the crew could legally walk across the border along the beach without passports or ID.
Tends to make the whole data collection exercise a bit pointless to my mind as any criminal with a bit of brain power would soon see a way around it. As to 'intelligence led' we heard all about the effectiveness of that before and after the American occupation of Iraq!

 

[Major Catastrophe]

My reading of previous posts on here were that an eBorders notification would have to be made 24 hrs before commencing a passage between NI and the mainland.

But, as the UK Borders Agency haven't finalised their own plans, who knows what the final decision will be. As the republic, CI's and the IoM will be treated as 'foreign' it seems daft to leave the glaring loophole.

Special Branch (Whatever their new name is now) already monitor all ferry and air traffic between NI and the mainland, and I would be surprised if they won't want access to information on leisure boaters.

Your best bet is to ask the RYA if they know.

 

[Seven Spades]

I am sure that it will not be legal to require 24 hours notice for internal movement within a country. If we are not crossing a border and we are not then I do not see how it can possibly be legal.

It seems to me that it is too big a political step to close the border between the ROI and NI so they want to treat the whole of Ireland as a foreign country. I can't see the Nationalists being prepared to stand for that.

 

[[448]]

Let me Google it for you.

Here is the bit about crossing from the republic to NI and from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, which are outside the UK. There will be no border controls between the north and the south, but there will be controls between the Republic and the 'mainland'.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/t...vellingtocommontravelarea/travelarrangements/

I can't find it now, but there has been a number of posts on here about the need to notify the UK border Agency before departing to or arriving from Northern Ireland.

I have found this, "Q. What are the proposals concerning the Republic of Ireland, where there are very many cross border trips made daily from Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and England?

Agency response
e-Borders applies on all international voyages, which includes voyages between the UK and the Republic of Ireland." From here: http://www.rya.org.uk/ABOUTUS/WHATWEDO/LOBBYING/Pages/e-Borders.aspx

Liam Byrne an immigration minister said this: "Mr. Byrne: The addendum to the e-Borders contract will provide additional functionality to enable the agencies to:
capture Other Passenger Information (OPI) relating to 100 million passenger
journeys per year; perform sophisticated analysis (data mining) on the data held in the e-Borders database;
develop and run profiles against the passenger data that is received and held in the
system; and capture Domestic Travel Information (DTI) for all passengers travelling between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, subject to the implementation of Section 14 of the Police & Justice Act 2006."
Page 12 on this pdf: http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-03980.pdf

Following the links to Isle of Man, we get this:


"Proposed arrangements for travel between the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom

This page explains how the UK Border Agency's plans to reform the operation of the common travel area would affect the arrangements for travel between the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom.

We would not introduce fixed or routine immigration controls on passengers travelling between the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom. We would increase intelligence-led operations on these routes.

Passengers travelling between the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the United Kingdom would not need to carry a passport or national identity card for immigration purposes.

Customs controls between the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the United Kingdom, and between the Bailiwick of Jersey and the United Kingdom, would remain in place"

Does this really mean that the UKBA stuff (thinking the 24 hour notice stuff) doesn't apply to yachts plying between the mainland and the Isle of Man?
Dave

 

[FrancisRutter]

I am in my 80s. I have been given a computer by my son and taught to send e-mails but I do not have a computer on board and would probably not know how to work it if I did. I certainly do not know anything about internet cafes.
If I go over to Holland agian,as I might, I shall ignore all of this nonsense. If I get a criminal record as a result it really will not incomode me as far as I can see.
I do object to the increasingly totalitarian way that we are being governed nowadays.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Does this really mean that the UKBA stuff (thinking the 24 hour notice stuff) doesn't apply to yachts plying between the mainland and the Isle of Man?
Dave

It is very confused, compounded by the changes to the number of proposed legislation put forward.

If you travel form the IoM to the UK you will need to give the ferry company or airline full details of your name, address and other information. This will be forwarded to the UK border agency as per any person travelling to the UK has to. The only difference is that you do not have to show a passport at point of entry, but the UKBA will know all about your trip, which will be added to your 'record'. Those details will be used as part of their intelligence led operations.

At some stage in the past year or so, there was a paper published that stated that there was an e-Borders requirement for leisure craft to notify the the UKBA of intention to sail to or from the IoM.

This statement on the UKBA website shows that the UKBA has firm ideas about changing the present Common Travel Area system.

"Proposed changes to the common travel area arrangements

With increased international travel, the freedoms enjoyed by CTA residents could be abused by criminals, illegal immigrants and people who pose a security threat to any of the partner countries. The UK Border Agency therefore made a commitment to review and strengthen the CTA arrangements in our 2007 strategy document Securing the UK border.

We consulted stakeholders and the public on changes during 2008, and we have also been in discussion with our CTA partners about modernising the CTA. In January 2009, the Government's response to the consultation on Strengthening the common travel area proposed reforms to the operation of the CTA.

Although these proposed reforms were removed from the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill in July 2009, we remain committed to seeking their introduction at some point in the future."

From here: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/t...ivingatukborder/travellingtocommontravelarea/

So, it seems that things have change since the earlier statement that eBorders notification will be applied to travellers in the CTA area, but excluding the Republic of Ireland.

This is a good example of legislation being made up on the hoof.

I think that e-Borders is a cracking idea, but there needs to be some flexibility when it comes to leisure craft, who often depart using weather windows and cannot finalise the crew list until the last line is cast off.