Eberspacher D3LC vs Chinese brand vs Planar Russian ( Latvian)

[Fire99]

I'm going to steam into this one (with my tin hat on). I'll try and keep to the point. I've an old Eber D5 which has been problematic since acquiring the boat and with the spares prices, the tipping point of giving up on the thing didn't take too long to find. So out it came.

As a temporary (I don't want to be cold) measure I bought a 5KW Chinese heater and though clearly it didn't have the ultimate power of the D5 (which is physically huge) it has done the job. In fact I bought a 2nd just because they were so cheap.. Here are my (as balanced as possible) findings. Good and bad..

Quick Tech outputs
Chinese 5KW = around 3.8kw - of actual heat output - (courtesy of David McLuckie on Youtube)
Chinese HCalory 6- 8.5kw - Slightly larger heat exchanger and 90mm outlet - around 4.8kw of actual heat (also from Devid McLuckie Youtube)

Good.
- Very very cheap to buy. You can buy a 5kw Triclicks (which both of mine are) for about £80 delivered at the mo.
- They come with a remote control that works perfectly
- They fit to existing Eberspacher exhaust, combustion air inliet and fuel inlet fittings, which is good (as will be mentioned in the negatives)
- Mine have been 99% reliable for around 2 - 3000 hours use in total. Running on diesel then Kerosene I've really basically forgotten about it.
- Replacement parts (I'll get to the why in the 'negative' list - are very cheap
- Replacing parts is childs play. Temp sensor and recently a fan. - No more than about 20 mins.
- There are good sources of balanced info out there - David McLuckie on Youtube is pretty straight down the line.
- Depending on the controller you can play with fan speeds and fuel pump rates etc if you like to dabble - and you can get an Afterburner controller from Ray Jones in Australia if you want to modify and see just about every paramater thats ever existed

Bad
- The standard 5kw one is limited on output for large boats. I've an Hcalory 6-8.5kw ready to test so ignore that one but at present there isn't a Chinese direct alternative to a large Eberspacher D5 (or dare I say Planar 9D). They have much bigger bodies and larger fans.
- The Hcalory 6-8.5kw controller looks good but the rest mostly look a bit 80s Calculator. They're not very stylish controllers.
- You really do need to use a different exhaust pipe. If you're replacing an existing Eber/Webasto then great. Use what is there. If it's a new install, you want to spend a few quid on a good quality insulated exhaust. (They're not mega expensive though).
- The same goes for ancillary bits. Jubilee clips etc are pretty cr@p and you want good stainless stuff on a boat.
- Fans and temp sensors don't last forever. I replaced a temp sensor ages ago (for about 8 quid) and this week a fan which was varying its speed. I've heard if you set the advanced settings to run them at 5k rpm instead of between 4.5k and 4.7k, the bearings get upset.
- One part not many people mention. The rubber gasket that goes around the exhaust / combustion air connectors, isn't great quality so if you do need to take the heater apart after a year or two it may start to break up. I would replace that if you do any repairs.

That's about it really. On balance I'd say Eber and Webasto are ridiculously over priced for their quality and they are not guaranteed to be problem free. The Chinese ones are amazing value but they do have their flaws so you do need to use your brain if you're going to install them on your boat.

On the CE issue that certainly will be a problem for OE on newbuilds and those fitted by professionals. IF (and I say IF) an accident happened I wouldn't want to be the professional who fitted the non CE equipment when it came to insurance etc. But even China has some CE approved heaters (Lavaner Pro).

I can't comment on Planar / Autoterm as I've never seen one in the 'flesh' and that's unlikely to change in the forseeable, for non-technical reasons.

So there you go. Purely my experiences and not a technical advice post.

 

[ChromeDome]

I got shouted at for saying "common sense". Wouldn't be surprised if get bashing for below, a to me completely fine sentence:

.. you do need to use your brain if you're going to install them on your boat.

Thanks for sharing your view.
I guess the heat produced should be as per the specification stated, not on whatever a model number marketing indicates.

Another Youtuber (John from Australia) has a line of videos, among them one that explains why the Chinese heater marked "5-8 kw" in any case are 5 kw only. Actually, it is down to the dosing pump. Being the same for all and working at the same frequency, they will push the same amount of fuel - producing the same amount of heat.

The episode is here for you

 

[Fire99]

I got shouted at for saying "common sense". Wouldn't be surprised if get bashing for below, a to me completely fine sentence:

Thanks for sharing your view.
I guess the heat produced should be as per the specification stated, not on whatever a model number marketing indicates.

Another Youtuber (John from Australia) has a line of videos, among them one that explains why the Chinese heater marked "5-8 kw" in any case are 5 kw only. Actually, it is down to the dosing pump. Being the same for all and working at the same frequency, they will push the same amount of fuel - producing the same amount of heat.

The episode is here for you

Thanks for that.. I've seen this video and it pretty much shows my thoughts.. At the mo there are 3 actual 'Chinaspacher' sizes.

2KW
5KW (and those branded 8KW which are exactly the same)
6-8.5KW Hcalory (which has the phyiscally larger heat exchanger and the 90mm heat outlet)

(Obviously those are labelled output not actual output).

I actually run a 0.28ml pump instead of the regular 0.22ml as I was curious to see what happens. It runs very well. I'm not sure how close I am to the cut out temperature but not once has that happened. You're more inclined to try these things with an £80 heater. I wouldn't be doing it if it were a £400 - £1000+ heater.

PS - @ChromeDome I totally agree about common sense. We get so hung up on technical 'absolutes' and most things are more 'shades of grey' than 'black & white'. A Chinese heater is a bit like getting a brand new car for 2 grand but it comes with terrible budget tyres. If you're paying 2 grand for the car you won't be too upset having to put a decent set of mainstream tyres on it. Ok it'll never be a Mercedes but it's 1/14th of the price and Mercedes come with their own problems too. (That's the kinda analogy I'm thinking of)

 

[peteK]

A

Sure, but who fits just bare exhaust hose in a boat?
Assuming 2m length, you’ll want a silencer, lagging, etc, etc. That’s your £100. A skin fitting is around £35.

There’s nothing that comes with them that’s worth using, imho. My costings for installation parts for a 2kw on my boat came to just less than £500 not including the heater.

A stainless skin fitting is now around £12.50 on ebay.

 

[Fire99]

Also do consider just how expensive an Eberspacher / Webasto heater is if you include the marine kit (Exhaust and skin fitting etc)

A Webasto EVO55 kit on ButlerTechnic is £1915 +VAT!!!! but is out of stock
A slightly better comparison (power wise), Eberspacher D4 kit with two outlets and including the marine exhaust etc from Eberspacher direct is.......£2260......inclusive of vat!!!

Adding 100 quids worth of exhaust, skin fitting, and a few sundries to an 80 (even 100) quid Chinese heater is still an entire galaxy away from the Eber / Webasto prices. Which to me puts them in entirely different markets.

 

[fredrussell]

Also do consider just how expensive an Eberspacher / Webasto heater is if you include the marine kit (Exhaust and skin fitting etc)

A Webasto EVO55 kit on ButlerTechnic is £1915 +VAT!!!! but is out of stock
A slightly better comparison (power wise), Eberspacher D4 kit with two outlets and including the marine exhaust etc from Eberspacher direct is.......£2260......inclusive of vat!!!

Adding 100 quids worth of exhaust, skin fitting, and a few sundries to an 80 (even 100) quid Chinese heater is still an entire galaxy away from the Eber / Webasto prices. Which to me puts them in entirely different markets.

Interesting figures! Having owned and stripped down both Eberspachers and Chinaspachers I do have to wonder how the German manufacturers arrive at their retail price figure given that a Planar, which most seem to accept as same quality as German stuff, is half(?) the price.

 

[jon and michie]

Interesting figures! Having owned and stripped down both Eberspachers and Chinaspachers I do have to wonder how the German manufacturers arrive at their retail price figure given that a Planar, which most seem to accept as same quality as German stuff, is half(?) the price.

It not just that - if it breaks down its only another £80 ish for another unit as opposed a mortgage on servicing an eber or webasto

 

[Fire99]

I do have to wonder how the German manufacturers arrive at their retail price figure

My guess would be historical reputation. If you go back probably less than a decade, mention "diesel heater" and I'd say the only names that would be banded about would be Eberspacher or Webasto, and perhaps to a lesser degree Mikuni. Probably if someone asked how much a diesel heater was, people would say something like £1000+
I think if nothing else the Chinese copies have waved a big flag to say just how astonishingly expensive Eber & Webasto are. I may have already mentioned this but probably with newbuilds, leaving the CE issue to one side (as there are other CE approved options), considering the markup on many of the other 'options', the difference of an extra £1000-2000 for one of the two big players in heaters is probably fairly insignificant, and when it comes to resale, the average boat buyer will be more attracted to having built in Webasto of Eberspacher heating rather than the seller explaining why the Russian/Latvian one is just as good but cheaper or how the buyer could fill a shopping trolley with replacement Chinese heaters!!

 

[Fire99]

It not just that - if it breaks down its only another £80 ish for another unit as opposed a mortgage on servicing an eber or webasto

Good point. There aren't many other consumer products I can think of where you could have about six replacement heaters for the same price as a couple of replacement parts for the 'German-twins'.

 

[Geoff Wode]

My guess would be historical reputation. If you go back probably less than a decade, mention "diesel heater" and I'd say the only names that would be banded about would be Eberspacher or Webasto, and perhaps to a lesser degree Mikuni. Probably if someone asked how much a diesel heater was, people would say something like £1000+
I think if nothing else the Chinese copies have waved a big flag to say just how astonishingly expensive Eber & Webasto are. I may have already mentioned this but probably with newbuilds, leaving the CE issue to one side (as there are other CE approved options), considering the markup on many of the other 'options', the difference of an extra £1000-2000 for one of the two big players in heaters is probably fairly insignificant, and when it comes to resale, the average boat buyer will be more attracted to having built in Webasto of Eberspacher heating rather than the seller explaining why the Russian/Latvian one is just as good but cheaper or how the buyer could fill a shopping trolley with replacement Chinese heaters!!

Eber and Webasto got their wrists slapped for price fixing. Probably mentioned earlier in the thread.

Those prices quoted above are similar to Wallas heaters which strikes me as a bit mad.

 

[Fire99]

Eber and Webasto got their wrists slapped for price fixing. Probably mentioned earlier in the thread.

Those prices quoted above are similar to Wallas heaters which strikes me as a bit mad.

Yeah I may have even mentioned that myself but yep they got fined for operating a form of cartel and mutually inflating the prices. It doesn't encourage me to throw money at them.

 

[ChromeDome]

Eber and Webasto got their wrists slapped for price fixing. Probably mentioned earlier in the thread.

Those prices quoted above are similar to Wallas heaters which strikes me as a bit mad.

Actually Webasto got away without punishment. Reason? They blew the whistle on Eber or, as they put it "Webasto was not fined because it benefited from immunity for revealing the existence of the cartel to the Commission".

Eberspächer managed to get their fine reduced to € 68.175.000. In 2015, so far 8 years to recover.

I can't help thinking that many German heaters are fitted from new, hence paid over the car financing. In the context of the new car's price, it might seem a minor addition .

When in need of service the heater cost will just be on par with other fixes on modern cars (I've heard from a friend).