e-Borders; do the UKBA know about real life?

It would be quite good fun to set up a fleet of private boats going x-channel for a week, taking people one way to and from France, while people travel on Ferry to and from, where electronic notification happens. Fleet of private boats don't notify e-borders of any trips they are making. Wonder how long it would take e-borders to notice dozens of people making the same one way trips on the ferry several times, with no record of them going the other way. Would be much better with hundreds of private boats doing it at the same time
 
BrendanS said:
It would be quite good fun to set up a fleet of private boats going x-channel for a week, taking people one way to and from France, while people travel on Ferry to and from, where electronic notification happens. Fleet of private boats don't notify e-borders of any trips they are making. Wonder how long it would take e-borders to notice dozens of people making the same one way trips on the ferry several times, with no record of them going the other way. Would be much better with hundreds of private boats doing it at the same time
Click to expand...

Your idea's sound, eBorders however...

At the moment they only check your ID when entering the country - not when leaving.
For the last 14 weeks I've entered the country every Friday afternoon - eBorders must have that on record as my passport was scanned (or whatever they do to it) every Friday.
Yet, not once, was my ID check by the UKBA when I left the country on Monday morning.

You would have thought that the same person entering the country 14 times, without a single record of that person ever having left would raise one or two eyebrows... Not so far.
 
NDH said:
Well clearly the electronic option is going to be a problem as outlined in the above posts, we all accept that plans change very quickly when sailing, the only logical way I can see this working is notifying CG by VHF, so they can forward to UKBA
Click to expand...

So I call the CG by way of an unsecured VHF conversation with the following information:

  • Ships name and callsign
  • Current position, ETA and port and time of arrival
  • Full names and home addresses of all onboard
  • Dates of Birth and Passport numbers
  • Probably also providing card details to cover the fee for not reporting electronically

How can I be sure that I will not eventually get home to find that I have been burgled, my bank account cleared out and identity stolen!!
 
DGH Crew you have no chance of escaping eBorders according to the the document the Mail on Sunday has obtained. If Brenda has to comply, I doubt they will allow you off the hook and she doesn't even have a passport.

Papers please.

"The document, written by lead contractor Raytheon Systems and obtained by The Mail on Sunday, contains a list of questions relating to the new system that may be raised by those implementing it, such as airlines.

One reads: 'We carry a variety of VIPs; Heads of State, Royal Family members among others, for whom security is paramount and for whom we are not provided with all TDI (Travel Document Information). How do we report these individuals?'

The UK Border Agency response is unequivocal: 'Answer: The UK authorities require that TDI must be provided for all passengers without exception.'

The move will end the current practice of allowing VIPs, including senior members of the Royal Family, to travel under a pseudonym on commercial flights."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-faces-anti-terror-checks-time-leaves-UK.html
 
Sanderling_ said:
So I call the CG by way of an unsecured VHF conversation with the following information:

  • Ships name and callsign
  • Current position, ETA and port and time of arrival
  • Full names and home addresses of all onboard
  • Dates of Birth and Passport numbers
  • Probably also providing card details to cover the fee for not reporting electronically

How can I be sure that I will not eventually get home to find that I have been burgled, my bank account cleared out and identity stolen!!
Click to expand...

Hmm, it doesn't sound very secure, or reliable. Anyone could make that call, how would I prove I am who I say I am?
 
Major Catastrophe said:
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-faces-anti-terror-checks-time-leaves-UK.html
Click to expand...

The paragraph that caught my eye:
"A Buckingham Palace spokesman said: 'As a British passport is issued in the name of Her Majesty, it is unnecessary for the Queen to possess one. All other members of the Royal Family, including the Duke of Edinburgh and the Prince of Wales, have passports."

Just imagine - Prince Charles hands over his passport, it's scanned and alarm bells go off!

So, Mr Windsor, we see that you have been associating with the family of a wanted person

"13 Oct 2001 ... Bakr bin Laden, a prominent Saudi businessman, was a guest at Highgrove two weeks ago at a dinner hosted by Prince Charles. ..."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1359311/Prince-plays-host-to-bin-Ladens-brother.html
 
I know i'll just be signing the email address they give to as much junk mail as possible, perhaps some Nigerian "entrepeneurs" might be happy with an extra email address to try and extort money from.

Hopefully the operatives will get fed up of the emails and give up on the system :)
 
It could all be so simple. Paint a bar code on each side of the hull and have giant readers each side of the port entry...job done. If Tesco can do it.....;););)

Its all Bo**ocks isn't it. The Mumbai terrorists arrived in boats FFS. The honest get subsumed in Beuraucracy, the dishonest/malevolent detour round it anyway.

Tim
 
Just in case it's of interest - if you're a Brit, then you don't need a passport to re-enter the UK from abroad:

2. THE RIGHT OF ABODE
2.1 If you have the right of abode in the United Kingdom, this means that you are entirely free from United Kingdom immigration control. You do not need to obtain the permission of an immigration officer to enter the United Kingdom, and you may live and work here without restriction.
2.2 However, you must prove your claim by production of either: a) a passport describing you as a British citizen or as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies having the right of abode in the United Kingdom; or b) a certificate of entitlement to the right of abode in the United Kingdom issued by or on behalf of the Government of the United Kingdom.

So - Birth Certificate or similar proof (like an out-of-date passport ?) should suffice, although I'd like to see this tested by someone with no ID whatsoever: then, on the basis of innocent until proven guilty, it really ought to be for the authorities to prove that you are NOT British with right of abode.
I'd like to see 'em try and send a Brit back ... to where ?
 
Some of the posts seem to assume the eBorders is being setup by reasonable people abel to analyse problems etc. I have excahnged emails with them and I can assure they are not reasonable, dont have a clue and make wierd interpretations of requirements. Eg electronic means of communication is interpreted as solely Internet. They assume everyone has full access all the time. They do not understand if you are, for example, in Braye and the forecast was wrong you need to get out. I was told one can always file a plan but I presume they have not taken a dinghy ride ashore at 03.00 in a gale! They assume we are all yuppies, like they probably are, with mobile phones and expensive contracts who can afford the roaming charges. They will not consider the thought of having information on file such that a simple SMS message can give a plan relating to a set of data. In short, they are idiots with too much power to criminalise us when we make seamanlike decisions.
 
Sanderling_ said:
So I call the CG by way of an unsecured VHF conversation with the following information:

  • Ships name and callsign
  • Current position, ETA and port and time of arrival
  • Full names and home addresses of all onboard
  • Dates of Birth and Passport numbers
  • Probably also providing card details to cover the fee for not reporting electronically

How can I be sure that I will not eventually get home to find that I have been burgled, my bank account cleared out and identity stolen!!
Click to expand...

No you don't need to do any of those things. You and each member of your crew pre-register onthe CG database. Then when you enter or leave you provde your unique CG ref numbers. This clocks you in and out. Why do somnething complicated when something simple will suffice?
 
That is similar to the suggestion I gave them which was rejected! They require a plan filed on a full website by Internet. They have a very narrow minds which results in a very narrow interpretation of 'electronic'.
 
electrosys said:
Just in case it's of interest - if you're a Brit, then you don't need a passport to re-enter the UK from abroad:

2. THE RIGHT OF ABODE
2.1 If you have the right of abode in the United Kingdom, this means that you are entirely free from United Kingdom immigration control. You do not need to obtain the permission of an immigration officer to enter the United Kingdom, and you may live and work here without restriction.
2.2 However, you must prove your claim by production of either: a) a passport describing you as a British citizen or as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies having the right of abode in the United Kingdom; or b) a certificate of entitlement to the right of abode in the United Kingdom issued by or on behalf of the Government of the United Kingdom.

So - Birth Certificate or similar proof (like an out-of-date passport ?) should suffice, although I'd like to see this tested by someone with no ID whatsoever: then, on the basis of innocent until proven guilty, it really ought to be for the authorities to prove that you are NOT British with right of abode.
I'd like to see 'em try and send a Brit back ... to where ?
Click to expand...

I tried once by producing a French Carte de Sejour which is basically a French identity card issued to foreigners. They absolutely insisted on a passport.

The French Carte de Sejour is accepted for entry anywhere in the EU except the UK and it is probably accepted for the UK except for UK citizens.

The UK do not require passports for entry into the UK for EU citizens except for UK citizens!
 
Last edited:
Seven Spades said:
No you don't need to do any of those things. You and each member of your crew pre-register onthe CG database.
Click to expand...

Which all goes wrong when Charlie decides at the last minute he can't go and Bob, from the boat you used to park next to, says he wants crew as he has never sailed to France before, and luckily has his passport with him.

How does he 'pre-register'?

It's a rhetorical question, but gives a small insight into the huge loss of rights eBorders will bring, unless they allow for last minute changes to be conveyed by 'ordinary means'.

I am convinced this one will enjoy a long run in the theatre of 'Yuman Rights' courts.

It did occur to me how all this sits with the present immigration policy. For example, a man steps off a lorry having got through Dover undetected, he has no papers but is released with a reporting order, pending an asylum claim (which I wholeheartedly support) can simply disappear into his ethnic community never to be heard of again.

So, man who claims to be somebody with no identification is released into the community but you, who can prove identity and right of residence, can be fined and criminalised simply because you lacked an accessible internet connection.

It is madness, there is no other word for it.
 
Seven Spades said:
No you don't need to do any of those things. You and each member of your crew pre-register onthe CG database. Then when you enter or leave you provde your unique CG ref numbers. This clocks you in and out. Why do somnething complicated when something simple will suffice?
Click to expand...

The FOI reply I got said that VHF was not a reporting option, so that's all academic. internet site only.
 
I know that the poster was sugesting that the prospect of being able to report by VHF was not one that appealed to him for security [his] reasons. I mearly pointed out that it needn't be necessary a simply database of pre-registered dats (Similar to the CG66) would enable a passage to be recorded by passing on a personal registration number.

No personal information would be at risk and the UKBA would get the infor they needed as well. It is quite possible to have secure borders without the need for the onerous and unworkable rule devised by the e-borders team.
 
Major Catastrophe said:
Which all goes wrong when Charlie decides at the last minute he can't go and Bob, from the boat you used to park next to, says he wants crew as he has never sailed to France before, and luckily has his passport with him.

How does he 'pre-register'?

It's a rhetorical question, but gives a small insight into the huge loss of rights eBorders will bring, unless they allow for last minute changes to be conveyed by 'ordinary means'.

I am convinced this one will enjoy a long run in the theatre of 'Yuman Rights' courts.

It did occur to me how all this sits with the present immigration policy. For example, a man steps off a lorry having got through Dover undetected, he has no papers but is released with a reporting order, pending an asylum claim (which I wholeheartedly support) can simply disappear into his ethnic community never to be heard of again.

So, man who claims to be somebody with no identification is released into the community but you, who can prove identity and right of residence, can be fined and criminalised simply because you lacked an accessible internet connection.

It is madness, there is no other word for it.
Click to expand...

Madness it maybe but it will happen, UKBA staff are probably monitoring this forum to see all possible problems that the experts here can identify, rest assured that if you have to text or phone it will be an 0870 number :) :) :)
 
electrosys said:
Just in case it's of interest - if you're a Brit, then you don't need a passport to re-enter the UK from abroad:

2. THE RIGHT OF ABODE
2.1 If you have the right of abode in the United Kingdom, this means that you are entirely free from United Kingdom immigration control. You do not need to obtain the permission of an immigration officer to enter the United Kingdom, and you may live and work here without restriction.
2.2 However, you must prove your claim by production of either: a) a passport describing you as a British citizen or as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies having the right of abode in the United Kingdom; or b) a certificate of entitlement to the right of abode in the United Kingdom issued by or on behalf of the Government of the United Kingdom.

So - Birth Certificate or similar proof (like an out-of-date passport ?) should suffice, although I'd like to see this tested by someone with no ID whatsoever: then, on the basis of innocent until proven guilty, it really ought to be for the authorities to prove that you are NOT British with right of abode.
I'd like to see 'em try and send a Brit back ... to where ?
Click to expand...

Once went abroad from Hull without passport(driving a truck) and was told "You might have problems abroad(total rubbish!) and you may have trouble getting back in) .

"HAH!" I said .

3 weeks later ,having been in Holland,Germany,Denmark ,Belgium, Luxemburg and France with no checks,I arrived in Dover.

"Passport!" - I explain.- "Well I can't allow you throufg and I won't stamp your documents(import)!
"But I 've got my driving licence,reg docs for my truck(inmyname) Operator's licence and

various other proofs of identity!"

"No good you have to have passport!"

At this point I lost the plot and asked Pakistani gentleman how long he'd held HIS British
passport and it was all going to hell in a handcart when his superior( Scottish,female white)
came in stamped my papers, told me to remember my passport in future and waved me through !
"
 
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