nathanlee
Well-Known Member
Here here. He saved my bacon too, even put me up for a night and fed me.
Dylan, KTL and Google - a cautionary tale
- Thread starter dylanwinter
- Start date
Here here. He saved my bacon too, even put me up for a night and fed me.
dylanwinter
Well-Known Member
Talking Adsense
Making contact with anyone at all from an organisation by posting to a public forum seems a weird way of doing business to me
The web is full of people who have been closed out without redress to a human being.
I am working on the basis that my adsense account is gone forever along with the £2,000.
maybe a journalist will pick up the story - but looking around the web there is nothing unique in my case at all.
I assume there are others here who have experience of this too.
maybe some-one from Google will send me an email or even phone me
but I doubt it.
I am sure I have burned too many bridges by posting on here.
Dylan
Making contact with anyone at all from an organisation by posting to a public forum seems a weird way of doing business to me
The web is full of people who have been closed out without redress to a human being.
I am working on the basis that my adsense account is gone forever along with the £2,000.
maybe a journalist will pick up the story - but looking around the web there is nothing unique in my case at all.
I assume there are others here who have experience of this too.
maybe some-one from Google will send me an email or even phone me
but I doubt it.
I am sure I have burned too many bridges by posting on here.
Dylan
nathanlee
Well-Known Member
Very much so.
To put it in perspective (from Google's point of view), I used to write ad management software for a company who's spend with Google was in excess of 12 million pounds per month. That is to say, they paid an invoice to Google, every month, for over 12 MILLION pounds.
You'd think that'd buy some leverage, right? Nah. They still insisted we made (big and expensive) changes to how we use data (our OWN data), and how we stored it, and if we didn't do what they asked, they'd revoke our access.
I think often people forget just how massive Google is. It's beyond massive, and they unfortunately act like it. Perhaps through arrogance, but more likely through necessity. I'm sure thousands of people per day get banned for breaking T&C's, and it's not worth them employing the number of staff required to investigate each matter.
It's a great shame, and indeed a worry since I am very slowly trying to build various websites to make a bit of money from Google ads, but, well, I'm not sure I'm wiling to risk it now. But, you know what, Google don't care. I could make 100k per month and they wouldn't care less if I was doing it or not, because I wouldn't be so much as a pixel on the bar graphs they parade in board room meetings.
SimbaDog
Well-Known Member
Well, it is an adsense forum run by google themselves.
My friend had a google manager contact him by email & then by telephone after posting his request there, they resolved his problem!
My friend had a google manager contact him by email & then by telephone after posting his request there, they resolved his problem!
Gerry
Well-Known Member
Hi Dylan
We are very sorry to hear of your troubles. We really don’t know enough about your particular situation but may be able to shed some light on the context.
There is a whole industry out there trying to second guess Google algorithms in one way or another. For example, many people sell tools and advice for Search Engine Optimization (SEO). This aims to put your site higher up the Google rankings. It is like tax avoidance – you’re a mug if you don’t do it. It is just good sense to tag your site well, choose suitable “metadata”, search-engine friendly URLs and so forth.
But there are also a whole lot of people who sell services that guarantee your site will appear in the top ten for certain searches whose techniques may be far from fair play, like tax evasion perhaps. One bunch I remember were called “sticky eyes” and their secret ingredient was to employ prisoners (very cheap labour) to hit your site over and over again in order to pump it up the Google listings. This is unfair on everybody else.
Since we are talking billions of hits, Google’s only protection is automated algorithms (probably what are called neural networks) to detect abnormal patterns. I suspect that may be what you’ve fallen foul of. Otherwise it would be all too easy for those with less worthy content than yours to make a living like this. I expect there is no single number or ratio you’ve violated; it will be far more complicated than that. One problem with neural networks is that you may not be able to easily explain their conclusions, hence the objections to using them for profiling criminals, for example.
Blogging is still the most effective, legitimate way to push yourself up the rankings but you have to post daily. A few people have made a good living at this. See http://sethgodin.typepad.com/, for example. I don’t think your openness was the problem, it is usually considered a big plus in blogging, certainly according to Israel and Scoble’s “Naked Conversations”.
There are zillions of food blogs, but http://www.thepioneerwoman.com shows what can be achieved by a commercial blog if you really go for it.
Hope you have a merry Christmas, despite this.
www.gerryantics.blogspot.com
We are very sorry to hear of your troubles. We really don’t know enough about your particular situation but may be able to shed some light on the context.
There is a whole industry out there trying to second guess Google algorithms in one way or another. For example, many people sell tools and advice for Search Engine Optimization (SEO). This aims to put your site higher up the Google rankings. It is like tax avoidance – you’re a mug if you don’t do it. It is just good sense to tag your site well, choose suitable “metadata”, search-engine friendly URLs and so forth.
But there are also a whole lot of people who sell services that guarantee your site will appear in the top ten for certain searches whose techniques may be far from fair play, like tax evasion perhaps. One bunch I remember were called “sticky eyes” and their secret ingredient was to employ prisoners (very cheap labour) to hit your site over and over again in order to pump it up the Google listings. This is unfair on everybody else.
Since we are talking billions of hits, Google’s only protection is automated algorithms (probably what are called neural networks) to detect abnormal patterns. I suspect that may be what you’ve fallen foul of. Otherwise it would be all too easy for those with less worthy content than yours to make a living like this. I expect there is no single number or ratio you’ve violated; it will be far more complicated than that. One problem with neural networks is that you may not be able to easily explain their conclusions, hence the objections to using them for profiling criminals, for example.
Blogging is still the most effective, legitimate way to push yourself up the rankings but you have to post daily. A few people have made a good living at this. See http://sethgodin.typepad.com/, for example. I don’t think your openness was the problem, it is usually considered a big plus in blogging, certainly according to Israel and Scoble’s “Naked Conversations”.
There are zillions of food blogs, but http://www.thepioneerwoman.com shows what can be achieved by a commercial blog if you really go for it.
Hope you have a merry Christmas, despite this.
www.gerryantics.blogspot.com
dylanwinter
Well-Known Member
Were those emails just generated by a computer
So do you think a human has even looked at the figures at all?
I was beginning to feel like a criminal.
So do you thinks a few people trying to support KTL by clicking on ads in a mid western snow storm would be enough to alert the system and automatically close the account down.
How many demon clickers does it take to close an account.
I am beginning to think that I am glad I had not become even more dependent on it.
When I sent in an appeal - and put my words in that tiny little postage stamp sized box - did anyone human look at it do you think?
Wow this is a new World isn't it?
Dylan
So do you think a human has even looked at the figures at all?
I was beginning to feel like a criminal.
So do you thinks a few people trying to support KTL by clicking on ads in a mid western snow storm would be enough to alert the system and automatically close the account down.
How many demon clickers does it take to close an account.
I am beginning to think that I am glad I had not become even more dependent on it.
When I sent in an appeal - and put my words in that tiny little postage stamp sized box - did anyone human look at it do you think?
Wow this is a new World isn't it?
Dylan
Searush
Well-Known Member
Gerry
Well-Known Member
“So do you think a human has even looked at the figures at all?”
No, I doubt a human brain has looked at.
“I was beginning to feel like a criminal.”
This was exactly the objection to neural network technology when it was used to identify potential corruption in Chicago police and, guess what, they were all of a certain age/race/sex etc, so it was stopped (see http://www.calsci.com/Police.html and http://tinyurl.com/24886q5).
“So do you thinks a few people trying to support KTL by clicking on ads in a mid western snow storm would be enough to alert the system and automatically close the account down.”
No, I expect an aberrant pattern was established over a much longer period.
“How many demon clickers does it take to close an account.”
No one would know the answer to that... it is much more complicated.
“I am beginning to think that I am glad I had not become even more dependent on it.”
True
“When I sent in an appeal - and put my words in that tiny little postage stamp sized box - did anyone human look at it do you think?”
Probably, the postage stamp is a message but I am sure you are web-savvy enough to cut and paste a long message in that. Bit of a red herring, IMHO. I am sure someone looked at it.
"Wow this is a new World isn't it?"
Yes, and it has only just begun, Web 3.0 is going to be mind blowing (see http://www.yalaworld.net)
www.gerryantics.blogspot.com
No, I doubt a human brain has looked at.
“I was beginning to feel like a criminal.”
This was exactly the objection to neural network technology when it was used to identify potential corruption in Chicago police and, guess what, they were all of a certain age/race/sex etc, so it was stopped (see http://www.calsci.com/Police.html and http://tinyurl.com/24886q5).
“So do you thinks a few people trying to support KTL by clicking on ads in a mid western snow storm would be enough to alert the system and automatically close the account down.”
No, I expect an aberrant pattern was established over a much longer period.
“How many demon clickers does it take to close an account.”
No one would know the answer to that... it is much more complicated.
“I am beginning to think that I am glad I had not become even more dependent on it.”
True
“When I sent in an appeal - and put my words in that tiny little postage stamp sized box - did anyone human look at it do you think?”
Probably, the postage stamp is a message but I am sure you are web-savvy enough to cut and paste a long message in that. Bit of a red herring, IMHO. I am sure someone looked at it.
"Wow this is a new World isn't it?"
Yes, and it has only just begun, Web 3.0 is going to be mind blowing (see http://www.yalaworld.net)
www.gerryantics.blogspot.com
mattw
Active Member
I'm afraid you've met the dark side of Google's business model. The idea is that they create the algorithms, set up the servers and then the money just rolls in with no human intervention. Amazon, Ebay, Yahoo and many others were born of this promise and they've all ended up employing thousands of people to deal with the fact that people don't fit into a simple set of parameters.
I suspect that few of us realise how much we rely on Google to make our lives work, and how many problems they can cause us if we don't fit into their narrow definitions of normal behaviour.
I suspect that few of us realise how much we rely on Google to make our lives work, and how many problems they can cause us if we don't fit into their narrow definitions of normal behaviour.
fergie_mac66
Well-Known Member
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Dylan,
don't be daft. looking at the forum, it is apparent that real google people do look at it, and it is a genuine way to get the attention of someone that can make a difference.
Post on there with an honest description of your problem, with links to your two threads on there, and that should be good evidence that you were not responsible for the problem, and well worth a try.
Searush
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a good plan Dylan. You will get more than a postage stamp space & you can present a good case well, can't you?
bob234
Well-Known Member
On perhaps a lighter note (I hope) - exactly how many times have you been let go of? !!
It does look from some of the cent postings above that there is a real opportunity to be heard by a human. I wouldn't dismiss the suggestions too quickly.
Cheers,
Bob
dylanwinter
Well-Known Member
too many times to count
I am always losing contracts
thats why they use freelancers
I was three weeks into KTL- in Rye in 2008 - in my circumnavigation in asailing boat (just to keep this relevant to sailing)
I had a 20 week a year contract at the Natural History Unit at the BBC
I got a text telling me to call the boss
he told me that the next six week block was the last and that the new big cheese at the BBC was pulling the plugs on the programme I was presenting
But at least they offered me more work before they let me go
With google when they let you go they confiscate you last six weeks money
bloody nora! these new rules are completely inhumane.
bah humbug!
I will have a look at the website.
Dylan
I am always losing contracts
thats why they use freelancers
I was three weeks into KTL- in Rye in 2008 - in my circumnavigation in asailing boat (just to keep this relevant to sailing)
I had a 20 week a year contract at the Natural History Unit at the BBC
I got a text telling me to call the boss
he told me that the next six week block was the last and that the new big cheese at the BBC was pulling the plugs on the programme I was presenting
But at least they offered me more work before they let me go
With google when they let you go they confiscate you last six weeks money
bloody nora! these new rules are completely inhumane.
bah humbug!
I will have a look at the website.
Dylan
sighmoon
Well-Known Member
Where does it say that? If anything I've heard them recommending ads being near the navigation
https://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=17954
As you are no longer getting paid for it, why are you allowing google to still show ads beside your truck video? If they've said that they've stopped serving ads to your customers, that's what they should have done. It might be that they've not banned your youtube account, only your ads on your KTL website.
1.5 million eyeballs a month is a valuable commodity, and I'm sure there's a way to make it pay again. Are you able to advertise products in your Amazon account within the video, for instance (toy truck)
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dylanwinter
Well-Known Member
All banned
once you have been disabled by an adsense computer (nice phrase) then there is no redemtion, no partial redemtion unless you can get a hold of a human being.
I could remove the films from youtube - they might do it for me of course -but I do not want to lose the hits that attract more hits. I could also request that they remove the adverts - but they push the films without adverts back down their search alogrithms (that is what I beleive). It is not in my interest to stop the adverts - the system is created that way by Google. I could remove them to show them what I think of them - a magnificently empty gesture of course.
This is a fantastic time of year for youtube vieweing figure - one day last year between christmas and new year I got 150,000 hits on one day. During the summer it fell to about 30,000 hits a day.
Money is still accumulating on my films - maybe, maybe - they will re-instate that part of the account. But its my guess if I ever manage to draw their attention to my case they might do a web search, see these threads and kill the films as well. Maybe they won't. I have no idea
If they do restore the youtube part of my account then I will use the money to carry on sailing around the UK - just to bring this back sailing in boats.
once you have been disabled by an adsense computer (nice phrase) then there is no redemtion, no partial redemtion unless you can get a hold of a human being.
I could remove the films from youtube - they might do it for me of course -but I do not want to lose the hits that attract more hits. I could also request that they remove the adverts - but they push the films without adverts back down their search alogrithms (that is what I beleive). It is not in my interest to stop the adverts - the system is created that way by Google. I could remove them to show them what I think of them - a magnificently empty gesture of course.
This is a fantastic time of year for youtube vieweing figure - one day last year between christmas and new year I got 150,000 hits on one day. During the summer it fell to about 30,000 hits a day.
Money is still accumulating on my films - maybe, maybe - they will re-instate that part of the account. But its my guess if I ever manage to draw their attention to my case they might do a web search, see these threads and kill the films as well. Maybe they won't. I have no idea
If they do restore the youtube part of my account then I will use the money to carry on sailing around the UK - just to bring this back sailing in boats.
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sighmoon
Well-Known Member
To echo what somebody else has said, thanks for being so open about all this - I have tweaked ads on a few sites I run as a result. If you think you still have a chance of scraping through, you might like to remove the numbers from your posts though, as that is against program policies.
dylanwinter
Well-Known Member
We are all in breach
There is a policy that says that you are in breach of your contract if you fail to make google aware of other people being in breach of their contracts. This could have a major impact on some of our much loved and incredibly useful sailing websites and blogs.
Where would be without them?
As for disclosing figures
too late.... and
If you look at the youtube space
http://www.youtube.com/user/dylanwinter1
then it tells people how many hits I have had
Profile
Channel Views:165,041
Total Upload Views:19,852,622
Subscribers:2,596
so presumably youtube is breaching the rules set by adsense and I should report youtube and adsense to google and get youtube thrown out of the adsense scheme.
I hope that now people are beginning to realise that many of our much loved websites are really vulnerable to this Kafkian web of nonsense that has been created.
Any owner of a sailing website that uses adsense who has read your last post fessing up to having had adsesne blocks in the 'wrong' place is now under an obligation to report you to google because unless they do that they themselves are liable to being summarily thrown out of the scheme.
I do hope that you are not as dependent on these nice people as I was.
That is the point they have created a system where everbody is vulnerable because everybody breaks the rules. That is how the contact is drawn up. They can throw anyone out anytime without giving you any reason.
Be afraid, be very afraid
Seriously though, you are correct
- it is my excessive openness that has been my downfall - but maybe that is why 700 people - 50 new ones this weekend - monay from YBW - are all crowding onto the slug to sail slowly around a small island on the edge of the Atlantic.
Dylan
There is a policy that says that you are in breach of your contract if you fail to make google aware of other people being in breach of their contracts. This could have a major impact on some of our much loved and incredibly useful sailing websites and blogs.
Where would be without them?
As for disclosing figures
too late.... and
If you look at the youtube space
http://www.youtube.com/user/dylanwinter1
then it tells people how many hits I have had
Profile
Channel Views:165,041
Total Upload Views:19,852,622
Subscribers:2,596
so presumably youtube is breaching the rules set by adsense and I should report youtube and adsense to google and get youtube thrown out of the adsense scheme.
I hope that now people are beginning to realise that many of our much loved websites are really vulnerable to this Kafkian web of nonsense that has been created.
Any owner of a sailing website that uses adsense who has read your last post fessing up to having had adsesne blocks in the 'wrong' place is now under an obligation to report you to google because unless they do that they themselves are liable to being summarily thrown out of the scheme.
I do hope that you are not as dependent on these nice people as I was.
That is the point they have created a system where everbody is vulnerable because everybody breaks the rules. That is how the contact is drawn up. They can throw anyone out anytime without giving you any reason.
Be afraid, be very afraid
Seriously though, you are correct
- it is my excessive openness that has been my downfall - but maybe that is why 700 people - 50 new ones this weekend - monay from YBW - are all crowding onto the slug to sail slowly around a small island on the edge of the Atlantic.
Dylan
Bosun Higgs
N/A
Seems to me that Dylans problem is symptomatic of the general malaise of internet trading. Increasingly its impossible to talk to a human being about a problem, there usually isnt a postal address to write to, one sided legal conditions are easy to impose, and above all without face to face contact possibilities businesses feel able to ride roughshod over customers.
And its just as applicable to small internet outfits as it is to ISPs , to internet banks and to Google and Microshaft and Apple.
Not a great one for new laws but we need one to force these outfits to have someone you can get at in your country of residence
And its just as applicable to small internet outfits as it is to ISPs , to internet banks and to Google and Microshaft and Apple.
Not a great one for new laws but we need one to force these outfits to have someone you can get at in your country of residence
savageseadog
Well-Known Member
I was going to mention ebay and Paypal both of which seem to think they can do as they please. What is more of a worry is how much information is fed to our government and the US government about our activities. It would also be useful to know how much is fed to the children of Satan credit reference companies like Experian. Experian seems to have an endorsement from UK government to store all sorts of stuff about us which they will no doubt find useful. There is another company http://www.northgate-is.com/ Northgate Information Services who seem to be doing a lot of data mining to enable government to do all sorts of things.
Other threads that may be of interest
