Dylan has lost a fan

[gerry99]

I do enjoy the way in which some people react to what I interpreted as a jocular telling of history. Having watched Dylan's films from the beginning when he left Bembridge in the Slug I know that there will be a few things that some would say are inflammatory but that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has watched Dylan's films over the years. I have seen worse on "Grumpu Old Men" and I can't get excited about it but do enjoy the excellent quality of the videos especially when there is wildlife in them.

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[Serin]

do enjoy the excellent quality of the videos especially when there is wildlife in them.

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Ditto that.

But Dylan has a lot to answer for. One friend who sails with me - a novice - has seen some of the east coast films and taken a notion that "creek crawling" is unutterably romantic. I think it was St. Osyth Creek that finally did it. Now I am contantly badgered to take her creek crawling, which I would gladly do, as the creeks are enchanting and the boat has quite a shallow draft. But sometimes it's nice to go out to sea and travel a bit further.

 

[gerry99]

Ditto that.

But Dylan has a lot to answer for. One friend who sails with me - a novice - has seen some of the east coast films and taken a notion that "creek crawling" is unutterably romantic. I think it was St. Osyth Creek that finally did it. Now I am contantly badgered to take her creek crawling, which I would gladly do, as the creeks are enchanting and the boat has quite a shallow draft. But sometimes it's nice to go out to sea and travel a bit further.

My Moody has too deep a draft to go creek crawling and I have to admit I have been thinking of finding something I can go creek crawling in but I do like the comfort of decent headroom and the solidity of a deep fin keel when in rough conditions. A dichotomy for sure

 

[DaveS]

Dylan,

I've waited a day before commenting (other than on the common error re. the SBS) to calm down. I can entirely understand Wullie's annoyance. Delivery of a selectively factual rant in a one-sided didactic fashion is not the best way to endear yourself to those against whom you rail. Portraying the complexities of 17th and 18th century dynastic and religious politics as "the Scots" versus "the English" is hopelessly simplistic -and completely misleading. So, in an attempt to give some balance and to fill in some of the gaps, I would like to add the following to your account.

1. The Jacobite story started with the invasion of England in 1688 by William of Orange. His mainly protestant army included many Scottish exiles. On its march from Torbay to London it was joined by significant elements of the English army of James VII and II. If the invasion had failed, all those taking part would doubtlessly have been labelled traitors and been dealt with accordingly. But they won, King James escaped to France, and William and Mary were installed as joint King & Queen in 1689 in what became known as the Glorious Revolution, but was in fact a political stitch up by the English Parliament. It was alleged that the throne was vacant because the king had abdicated - which was untrue. The Scottish Parliament met later and considered letters from both William and James. William's was the more persuasive, and the Scottish parliament voted in favour of him, but interestingly, not on the basis that James had abdicated, but that he had broken his contract with the people of Scotland and had thus forfeited his right to the crown. Commissioners were sent to William and Mary offering them the Scottish crown provided certain conditions were accepted. The crown was accepted, but it is unclear whether the conditions were agreed to - an issue that would later cast doubt on the legitimacy of their reign in Scotland.

2. The Scottish parliament was not unanimous in its support for William. A sizeable faction under Viscount Dundee (also known as Bluidy Clavers because of his ruthless suppression of the Covenanters) held out for James and raised an army in the highlands to fight for him. James was by then in Ireland, holding court in Dublin, planning an invasion of Scotland and England to recover his lost kingdoms, and sending an army against the protestants in the north of Ireland. The first Jacobite conflict (which was curiously never referred to as a rising) was therefore in 1689. At the battle of Killiecrankie in July Dundee decisively beat the government forces under General Mackay, but died the following day. The following month, at the exceptionally bloody battle of Dunkeld, the Jacobites and a new Cameronian government army fought each other to a standstill. In May 1690 the last of the Jacobite army was routed at Cromdale and in July James was decisively beaten by William at the Battle of the Boyne. The first Jacobite conflict was over.

3. The Massacre of Glencoe in 1692 derived from the turmoil left in the highlands and is a story worth reading up in its own right, but it is worth noting here that the order for the extirpation of the McDonalds was signed by King William. A subsequent enquiry established by the Scottish Parliament in 1693 reported in 1695 that the government had "barbarously killed men under trust". The secretary of state, Dalrympole, resigned but all others involved - particularly William - were exonerated.

4. I'll skip over Queen Mary's death in 1694; the Darian Scheme of 1698 - 1700 (with William's orders to the English colonies forbidding trade with the Scots colonists and his support of Spanish military action against them); the death of James in 1701 and the recognition of his son by Luis XIV of France as King James VIII and III of Great Britain; the Act of Succession passed by the English Parliament in 1701 conferring the thrones of England and Ireland following the deaths of William and Anne to Sophie of Hanover and her heirs; King William's death and Queen Anne's accession in 1702; the Scottish Parliament's Acts of Security of 1703 and 1704 asserting Scotland's right to determine the succession of the Scots crown; the retaliatory English Parliament's Alien Act of 1705; the Treaty of Union of 1707; and the Earl of Mar's 1713 resolution to have the Act of Union repealed.

5. In the first Jacobite rising in 1708 the Pretender and his French supporters were prevented from landing in Fife by a navel squadron commanded by Byng. Historians are of the opinion that if he could have landed the rising might well have succeeded. In fact the response by Westminster to the threat was to extend the English penalty for treason (hanging, drawing and quartering) to the rest of the UK.

6. Queen Anne died in 1714 and was succeeded by George, Elector of Hanover. He was not popular, particularly in Scotland, and there was a seldom reported Jacobite rising in the west of England. The exiled James published a declaration in which he promised "to relieve our Subjects in Scotland from the hardships they groan under on account of the late unhappy Union, and to restore the Kingdom to its ancient free and independent state."

7. In September 1715 the Earl of Mar raised King James' standard at Braemar and attracted an army of 10,000, roughly equally from Highlands and Lowlands, fighting for Scotland's independence and the restoration of the Stuart dynasty, and greatly outnumbering the government army of 4,000 under the Duke of Argyll. The Battle of Sherrifmuir in November was indecisive, with 300 dead on each side, and both sides withdrew. James landed at Peterhead in December, but he brought no money, troops or equipment. Mar took him to Aberdeen, Dundee and Perth where he set up court. The Duke of Argyll was now reinforced by 6,000 Dutch troops and the Jacobites retreated and dispersed, James taking a boat from Montrose for Flanders. (I can find no record of a Jacobite army reaching Carlisle in 1715.) The 1715 rising was over.

8. The 1719 rising was instigated by Spain, in revenge for Admiral Byng's destruction of the Spanish fleet the previous year. The idea was to land in Scotland as a diversion simultaneously with an invasion of England. The main invasion fleet suffered a fate similar to the 1588 armada, but the two frigates for Scotland with 327 troops and weapons to arm 2000 arrived at Stornoway in April under the command of Lord Keith, Earl Marischall of Scotland. They were joined by Jacobite exiles from France under the Marquis of Tullibardine carrying James' commission. The two commanders fell out: each thought he should be in charge, and much time was lost. They eventually crossed the Minch and landed at Eilean Donan Castle, Loch Duich. An attempt to raise the clans yielded only 1,000 men, and on 10 June they took up a defensive position in Glen Shiel to meet the well equipped government army marching from Inverness. The battle was short, with the Jacobites having no defence against government mortars and the terrain not allowing their normal charge, so they retreated with relatively light casualties. Most, including all the leaders escaped. The Spanish troops surrendered, were well treated, and sent home to Spain in October. The 1719 rising was over.

9. The story of the 1745 - 1746 rising is well known, so I won't amplify it much here. I cannot find any record of the atrocities which you allege were carried out by both sides, but there is evidence of significant differences between the behaviour of the opposing armies. In September 1745 the Jacobites won the battle of Prestonpans in 10 minutes, killing 150 government troops and capturing 1,500 for a loss of 30. The prisoners were treated well and many of them joined the Jacobite army. In November Carlisle surrendered to the Jacobites and its disarmed garrison was allowed to leave unharmed. On returning to Carlisle in December Charles insisted on leaving a garrison of 400 - mainly men from Manchester - behind as the army retreated north. When the government army took the town the men of the Jacobite garrison were summarily executed. In February 1746 the garrisons at Inverness and Fort Augustus surrendered to the Jacobites and in each case was disarmed and released. In April, the aftermath of the Jacobites' defeat at Cullodon was arguably the worst atrocity committed by a British army, with the indiscriminate slaughter of the wounded, fleeing clansmen and civilians - including women and children - continuing in the surrounding countryside for days.

10. You describe Field Marshall Keith as "an English spy", but I cannot for the life of me see why. There is a useful potted biography here:

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usbiography/k/jameskeith.html

He was a professional soldier - a mercinary - which at the time was not uncommon. There is the tale of Russian and Turkish armies meeting and their respective commanders having a parley. They discovered that they had attended the same school in Aberdeenshire...

Hope the above is useful. Do keep up the good work.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Dylan,

I've waited a day before commenting ..... to calm down. I can entirely understand Wullie's annoyance. ..... Hope the above is useful. Do keep up the good work.

Very interesting and thanks for posting this as a counter position to Dylan's video.

 

[dgadee]

But why would Dylan, a Home Counties man, be interested in all that confusing detail? Better to keep it simple t(hough I do continue to look forward to his forthcoming History of Scotland).

 

[DaveS]

But why would Dylan, a Home Counties man, be interested in all that confusing detail? Better to keep it simple t(hough I do continue to look forward to his forthcoming History of Scotland).

Because if you're going to tell a story it helps if you know the background. Your suggestion of keeping it simple can lead to over-simplification and people making nonsensical statements like "The English beat the Scots at Culloden", or Dylan's assertions about "the rebels having another go at the English". I don't see the relevance of Dylan's background; John Prebble, the popular historian whose accounts of Glencoe, Culloden and The Clearances are probably the most readable, is English.

 

[wully1]

As I said ' ignorant'

 

[NealB]

I don't see the relevance of Dylan's background; John Prebble, the popular historian whose accounts of Glencoe, Culloden and The Clearances are probably the most readable, is English.

I think you're attaching far too much importance to Dylan's fun little film.

May be I'm wrong, but I took as light entertainment, rather than an attempt to earn serious academic respect.

 

[skyflyer]

As I said ' ignorant'

...as are we all to a greater or lesser degree about something at which at some point in our lives we have had to, (or chosen to), speak. very few people know everything about everything; life is full of précis and summary and gist.

If Dylan's website was www.acompleteandaccuratehistoryofscotland.com that would be another matter.

 

[JumbleDuck]

No publicity is bad publicity.
Op has rekindled my interest in KTL.
Also I now have a view on the bonny prince that I will use to discuss with Scots lad staying here. It will be very different to the "true" version told in Scottish schools. I will convert him !

The version I was taught in a Scottish school involved BPC being a sly wee French chancer who exploited the fears and loyalties of some clans, led them appallingly and dumped them to save his own skin when it all went pear shaped.

 

[Serin]

The version I was taught in a Scottish school involved BPC being a sly wee French chancer who exploited the fears and loyalties of some clans, led them appallingly and dumped them to save his own skin when it all went pear shaped.

Always interesting to compare the same histories taught across borders.

In our family we sang as lot of border ballads (Mother - Hebridean via Edinburgh, father - borderer) My mother was taught about the wicked English raiding across the border and I (in an English school) learned about the wicked Scots doing the same thing. Seems my paternal family were only relatively minor murderers, although they are mentioned in most of the histories of that time and era.

My granny was, and my mother (a cententarian) is, shocked by the mutual hostility growing on both sides of the border. Whatever happens, they see no need for it. But, of course, they were/are both grown ups.

 

[sailor211]

What version is that the Bolshovic uprising, Tudor England, the Industrial Reveloution, Scottish History is not taught in Scottish schools. The topics I mention have all been taught to my daughter who attends an Edinburgh secondary school. When I attended school, late 1970's it was much the same stuff and certainly no Scottish History. It is no wonder that such romantic versions of Scottish history prevail.

This is what the Scottish lad says. Could be he did not listen and absorb.

 

[sailorman]

March and April were brilliant. Then I went and launched the boat for the season. It all went downhill very rapidly after that.

should have gone to The Netherlands then, it was too hot at times :disgust:

 

[Deleted member 36384]

This is what the Scottish lad says. Could be he did not listen and absorb.

Could be he was not taught it, do you think he is lying, do you think I am lying? Such arrogance.

 

[muyuu]

Always interesting to compare the same histories taught across borders.

In our family we sang as lot of border ballads (Mother - Hebridean via Edinburgh, father - borderer) My mother was taught about the wicked English raiding across the border and I (in an English school) learned about the wicked Scots doing the same thing. Seems my paternal family were only relatively minor murderers, although they are mentioned in most of the histories of that time and era.

My granny was, and my mother (a cententarian) is, shocked by the mutual hostility growing on both sides of the border. Whatever happens, they see no need for it. But, of course, they were/are both grown ups.

There is no border, and Scotland has been a region for 3 centuries (same as England). If we stopped pretending otherwise we'd be much better off.

 

[Fantasie 19]

But why would Dylan, a Home Counties man, be interested in all that confusing detail? Better to keep it simple t(hough I do continue to look forward to his forthcoming History of Scotland).

To be fair, not only a home counties man, but also an ex-journo... nothing like a little controversy to stir up interest in your product??

 

[Uricanejack]

Well I watched it. I was expecting a sailing film rather than a 1 pound lesson in Scottish History.
I enjoyed it anyway, even hit the button, I don't think he is going to get rich of my contributions at a pound a time. actually came to 6 dollars and 37 cents for three.
I'm probably not a true Dylan fan. I bought his first DVD, put it in a safe place before I watched it all. Can't remember where. I enjoyed finding out you can sail up to York and got the 1 pound history of York from a bike.
I can send him a video or recording of me playing the Skye boat song on the Pipes as revenge for any comments which might have offended me or my ancestors.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Because if you're going to tell a story it helps if you know the background. Your suggestion of keeping it simple can lead to over-simplification and people making nonsensical statements like "The English beat the Scots at Culloden" ...

Particularly since more Scots fought on the Hanoverian side at Culloden than fought on the Jacobite side.

 

[JumbleDuck]

In our family we sang as lot of border ballads (Mother - Hebridean via Edinburgh, father - borderer) My mother was taught about the wicked English raiding across the border and I (in an English school) learned about the wicked Scots doing the same thing. Seems my paternal family were only relatively minor murderers, although they are mentioned in most of the histories of that time and era.

The borders were almost another country, treating the laws of both sides with general disdain. My lot came from there, and made a fairly good thing out of the 1745 rebellion; selling Hanoverians to the Jacobites as BPC headed south and selling Jacobites to the Hanoverians when he had scarpered north again.