Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?

[Emjaytoo]

Having been fined once, are you immune from further fines? Or have you now got rid of your red and replaced with white. I'm thinking that if I can get to our marina at Kortgene without being "had", I'll get them to pump out the tank and refill with white as the boat will be staying permanently in The Netherlands.

 

[kengill]

Hi Gwylan

I had an interesting conversation with Dutch Customs this afternoon. It went like this....

Yes they are very aware that most people do not keep their diesel receipts.

It is up to the skipper to have the receipts showing the diesel was purchased prior to 1st Jan this year 2007.

Next year there must be no traces of red diesel in the system of a yacht

No they are not interested in the fact that it's completely impractical to clean red diesel traces from yachts systems. If there is a trace you will be breaking the law if caught with traces from the end of this year. If you can't be certain you are clear then don't come to Holland after 1 Jan 2008

If you can't show a diesel receipt before 1st Jan this year - don't come to Holland

They will not discuss it . They will only say what the law now is and that they intend to follow it to the letter. It is up to us to comply not for them to listen to any arguments.

Somehow I feel that there will not be many british yachts going to Holland after the end of 2007.

 

[kengill]

REmember the test that they do can detect red diesel dye at ratios of a few parts per million.

You are probably going to have to strip out and replace most of the fuel system. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Just because one officer fined you at the entrance to a lock doesn't mean another can't fine you again as you leave the lock.

 

[Bergman]

This is absolute madness.

Why can our government not give us some protection from this legalised extortion.

Is it really the case that if a British boat which is operating quite legally in the UK will need to completely renew the entire fuel system to be able to visit Holland.

What about Belgian boats, If they stray into Dutch waters will they be robbed as well?

If we have to lose red diesel we have to - ok - but to make it illegal in Holland while still being perfectly legal in the UK is simple theft.

What is the situation with commercial vessels - will all those ships going into Europort every day be checked and fines if they are burning tax free fuel. I guess not.

God but I hate the EU - I did think the Dutch were better than this but apparently not - just as bad as the rest - detestable.

Just as an after thought I wonder what they will do about the hundreds of Dutch yachts that have sailed to the UK and topped up with red here. Wonder if they will be checked and fined if there is any lingering trace of red. Somehow I think not.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

>>>
but to make it illegal in Holland while still being perfectly legal in the UK is simple theft.
>>>
Is that legal under EU law? If something may legally be purchased at one rate of tax in an EU nation I understood that it could then be legally taken to another EU nation without additonal tax being levied by the Customs provided the goods were for personal use and not commercial gain. This, I understand, is the whole basis on which you may now bring boot loads of wine over from Cherbourg. It looks to me that some official has over-interpreted the law. Pointing out to the Dutch Embassy that the actions of the Customs officials will drive foregn yachtsmen away could be an interesting and entertaining exercise.

Leave the EU, its obviously not fit for purpose.

 

[Gumpy]

[quoteIs that legal under EU law?


[/ QUOTE ]

In a simple one word answer NO

I have passed details of this on to the chap in the Barge assoc (where I got the text of the letter from) that deals with this I sugest someone does the same for the RYA as it is against EU law.

Julian

 

[oldgit]

"we fought them for 300 years and beat the lot"
Well nearly always....... Pesky Dutch

 

[Gwylan]

Well we asked the nice Customs men the same question. They said that we should produce our €770 'licence' and everything would be OK.
Just takes a youth with a calculator to work out the break-even point for using red diesel and saving money in The Netherlands

They were vague on how long the 'licence' might work

Getting conflicting feedback and the 'bums rush' from my MEP's, but my former MP is probably too busy [deleted ed!]
The red is totally toxic and no one wants to know about it. Where do you put it when you pump it out? Pay some spiv to dispose of it in a barrel to Romania or something?
Keep your head down, hang on to the receipt and fill up soon and hopefully dilute the red away as quickly as possible.

EU, a free market?

 

[Bergman]

I suspect the term "EU Law" is an oxymoron.

These thieving sons of bachelors make it up as they go along.

I would love to know if they try to steal from Dutch and Belgian sailors as well - but strongly suspect its just UK they victimise.

 

[Bergman]

I suspect the term "EU Law" is an oxymoron.

These theiving sons of bachelors make it up as they go along.

I would love to know if they try to steal from Dutch and Belgian sailors as well - but strongly suspect its just UK they victimise.

 

[Gwylan]

Well that seems at odds with what happened to us.
We purchased diesel after 01.01.07 - they were interested in the quality of the red colour. But in that sense we were bang to rights.

I would not wait until the end of 2007 to not come to the Netherlands. I think it's best not to come to the Netherlands - do not go looking for trouble.

I'm just stuck here for the duration and then I'm off to the far end of the Med where a bribe is a bribe and not state run extortion.

 

[kengill]

Nope

You're wrong!

Their view is it's in accordance with the law therefore by definition it is not theft.

The problem is that their lawyers in the Dutch Customs service seem to have given an interpretation of the EU directive which the Customs officers are obliged to enforce. One may well ask questions related to the competence of the lawyers but too many hides are already nailed to the mast to prevent them even thinking about checking, besides whoever heard of a Dutch customs law officer being accused of having integrity? with customs officers allegedly being in possession of deep pockets from receiving fines for which no receipt is given?.... Yes! but integrity? It has never been specifically brought to my notice.

Unless of course you know different. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Bergman]

Integrity is not a thing I would ever accuse anyone with any EU connection of.

I would love to know if they are going to check the fuel of every Dutch yacht that has visited the UK.

I would bet all of them have topped up with red before going home.

Lets see how popular they are when they start fining all their own sailors. But of course they won't will they.

It may be the law but you can bet it will be applied with a degree of selectivity, even though the fundamental principle is that a law is applied equally to all.

I wonder if the French will follow suit, and the Spanish etc etc.

I also wonder if the "principle" applies to green diesel from Ireland as well as red.

What colour do you get if you have used both in the same tank?

Can I register my boat in Norway?

 

[pmyatt]

I may be wrong but surely the "red" in diesel is merely an indicator of a lower taxed fuel therefore, if it is illegal to import a lower taxed fuel from one EU country to another by boat, surely it is illegal for a Dutch motorist to import fuel in his car upon which he has not paid UK rates of fuel tax - yes/no?

 

[Toutvabien]

Could not the actions of Dutch Customs, in effect, be seen as an impediment to free movement within the EU? Let's all sail to Strasbourg.

It seems to potentially create a dangerous situation if boats sailing to Holland cant have a good supply of fuel on board to cover contingencies. As others have said short of draining ones tanks and flushing through at some sort of offshore fuel barge how could a British yacht not be vulnerable. MOBOs must have a more accute problem.

 

[thalassa]

[ QUOTE ]
What about Belgian boats, If they stray into Dutch waters will they be robbed as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes! Has been going on for years, see my post further up this thread.

 

[Bergman]

Yes

Thanks for that

Does this mean that from Jan 1 next year you will have to completely renew your fuel system if you wish to take your boat into Dutch waters as it will still have evidence of red diesel in the tank and piping.

Are any other countries in mainland Europe taking the same ridiculous attitude as the Dutch?

BTB I admire your taste in boats!

 

[duncan]

interesting - well we were planning an extended break late spring 2008 on the waterways over there having read glowing reports of the facilities and knowing how friendly the people are............well that's now on hold until clarification - and that clarification would have to include 'it doesn't matter what colour your fuel shows up as!

I am a boat - I fill up where I can and have been getting both red and white dyed fuel for some time now. It is likely that from Nov 2008 I won't be getting a red dyed fuel in the UK BUT NOT CERTAIN.

It is likely I will have red dyed fuel in the seperate heater fuel tank - but not certain.

Has anyone request EW's comment and RYA contribution formally as a member yet?

 

[Major Catastrophe]

[ QUOTE ]
Reply:

Thank you very much for your email. In the meantime we have received more emails about this matter regarding red diesel for pleasure crafts. I have contacted the Dutch Customs and I have been told that recently pleasure crafts are not allowed to use "red diesel" anymore. Instead "white diesel" should be used. For more detailed information, I would advise you to contact the Dutch customs directly. Please find their contact details below:



Dutch Customs

Website: www.douane.nl > English

Telephone: +31 45 5743 031 (press option 2)



If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.



Hoping to have been of assistance.



Yours sincerely,

Suzanne Bosman

Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands
Economic Department
38 Hyde Park Gate
London SW7 5DP
Tel. +44 (0)207 590 3256
Fax +44 (0)207 581 3450
Website: www.netherlands-embassy.org.uk

[/ QUOTE ]

I got an identical reply from Ms Bosman and I get the impression that they are not really bothered.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Just sent the Dutch Embassy the following:

"I have been reading with alarm the news that Dutch Customs officials have been stopping and fining foreign leisure craft for carrying red diesel legally purchased inside the EU. As the dye is easily traced with simple equipment and stays in the boat's fuel system for many years this looks like an serious problem for boaters who wish to visit the Netherlands. While the issue is unresolved I, and two other boats in company that planned to visit Holland this August, will not now extend our cruise to Dutch waters as the implecation is that we would be singled out for attention. A pity as I am rather fond of decent Jenever and it is hard to get in the UK. I am reasonably certain that many other UK based boaters will make the same decision and would urge you to get this matter raised by the Dutch Parliament.
I had always been of the understanding that one of the ideals of the EU was that goods legitimately purchased in one member state may be freely taken to another state for personal use without liability to additional customs dues. This action seems in contravention of that ideal."

If enough of us do something along these lines then maybe news will filter back to Holland. Or just don't go.