ditchcrawler
Well-known member
I am due to go to Holland next weekend with several others on a club cruise.Has anyone made contact with the RYA legal dept & what was the answer.
Dump your Red Diesel before arriving in the Netherlands?
- Thread starter jimmynoboat
- Start date
Bergman
New member
Nice one Andrew
I sent the followingto the EU Ombudsman
Sir
There have been a number of recent examples of British leisure vessels visiting the Netherlands being fined by Dutch customs officials for having "red" (tax free) diesel fuel in their tanks.
Such fuel is legally and widely used for both commercial and leisure vessels in the UK and in some other EU member countries
It is alleged that the Netherlands Customs intend to apply this law retrospectively so that from 1st january 2008 any vessel found with any trace of "red" diesel will be automatically fined, even if no tax free diesel has been purchased for several years, and evidence is available that the vessel is being operated on fully taxed fuel.
The nature of the colouring agent used is such that it is effectively impossible to remove all traces.
This means that any British vessel visiting the Netherlands next year will have to completely replace the entire fuel system or face substantial fines.
It has always been my understanding that one of the ideals of the EU was that goods legitimately purchased in one member state may be freely taken to another state for personal use without liability to additional customs dues. This action seems in contravention of that ideal.
Further it seeks retrospectively to make an action (the purchase of tax free fuel in the UK) illegal when it was legally permitted under UK and EU law when it took place. This would appear to be against most principles of justice and perhaps even the European Convention on Human Rights.
It is unclear as I write to what extent this policy will be applied to the vessels of other EU member countries, such as Ireland and Belgium, that have or have had tax free fuel permitted for use in leisure and commercial vessels.
It is equally unclear how this policy will be applied next year by the Netherlands Customs to Netherlands registered vessels that have visited such countries legally selling tax free fuel and have purchased fuel there,thus leaving traces of tax free fuel in the fuel systems of their vessels.
I, and many other people, would appreciate some clarification of the position. Many British yachtsmen have traditionally visited the Netherlands and vice versa. There is a history of a very good and friendly relationship between the two nations. This policy clearly endangers that relationship and makes it unlikely that any British boat owners will feel able to visit the Netherlands after the 1st january 2008.
A very sad state of affairs
Yours Sincerely
I sent the followingto the EU Ombudsman
Sir
There have been a number of recent examples of British leisure vessels visiting the Netherlands being fined by Dutch customs officials for having "red" (tax free) diesel fuel in their tanks.
Such fuel is legally and widely used for both commercial and leisure vessels in the UK and in some other EU member countries
It is alleged that the Netherlands Customs intend to apply this law retrospectively so that from 1st january 2008 any vessel found with any trace of "red" diesel will be automatically fined, even if no tax free diesel has been purchased for several years, and evidence is available that the vessel is being operated on fully taxed fuel.
The nature of the colouring agent used is such that it is effectively impossible to remove all traces.
This means that any British vessel visiting the Netherlands next year will have to completely replace the entire fuel system or face substantial fines.
It has always been my understanding that one of the ideals of the EU was that goods legitimately purchased in one member state may be freely taken to another state for personal use without liability to additional customs dues. This action seems in contravention of that ideal.
Further it seeks retrospectively to make an action (the purchase of tax free fuel in the UK) illegal when it was legally permitted under UK and EU law when it took place. This would appear to be against most principles of justice and perhaps even the European Convention on Human Rights.
It is unclear as I write to what extent this policy will be applied to the vessels of other EU member countries, such as Ireland and Belgium, that have or have had tax free fuel permitted for use in leisure and commercial vessels.
It is equally unclear how this policy will be applied next year by the Netherlands Customs to Netherlands registered vessels that have visited such countries legally selling tax free fuel and have purchased fuel there,thus leaving traces of tax free fuel in the fuel systems of their vessels.
I, and many other people, would appreciate some clarification of the position. Many British yachtsmen have traditionally visited the Netherlands and vice versa. There is a history of a very good and friendly relationship between the two nations. This policy clearly endangers that relationship and makes it unlikely that any British boat owners will feel able to visit the Netherlands after the 1st january 2008.
A very sad state of affairs
Yours Sincerely
thalassa
Member
[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that from Jan 1 next year you will have to completely renew your fuel system if you wish to take your boat into Dutch waters as it will still have evidence of red diesel in the tank and piping.
Are any other countries in mainland Europe taking the same ridiculous attitude as the Dutch?
[/ QUOTE ]
AFAIK the latest instance I know of - the customs officer's checks were visual ones. The skipper showed his reserve canisters - white in those-...still insisting checking the 120 liter tank, white in that, although red had been in it earlier in the year. Another Mark I eyeball check. They were satisfied after this, although a lab analyses certainly would have showed up traces.
The attitude of the Dutch to keeping to rules and regulations is "ridiculous" if you are on the receiving end of it, but "reassuring" if it works your way, as it does for many .
Nevertheless, it is worthwhile making it clear that enforcing this ruling in the extreme will hurt tourism. I've always found the Dutch very receptive on this, always making regulations "inoperative" if they tended to hurt the economy.
An example is i.e. the attitude to AF. Officially, since 2000, it is not allowed to sell or apply AF containing copper. After years of controversy and complaints by the HISWA (association of pleasure craft businesses), the regulation was not withdrawn, but made "inoperative" in actual fact.
Does this mean that from Jan 1 next year you will have to completely renew your fuel system if you wish to take your boat into Dutch waters as it will still have evidence of red diesel in the tank and piping.
Are any other countries in mainland Europe taking the same ridiculous attitude as the Dutch?
[/ QUOTE ]
AFAIK the latest instance I know of - the customs officer's checks were visual ones. The skipper showed his reserve canisters - white in those-...still insisting checking the 120 liter tank, white in that, although red had been in it earlier in the year. Another Mark I eyeball check. They were satisfied after this, although a lab analyses certainly would have showed up traces.
The attitude of the Dutch to keeping to rules and regulations is "ridiculous" if you are on the receiving end of it, but "reassuring" if it works your way, as it does for many .
Nevertheless, it is worthwhile making it clear that enforcing this ruling in the extreme will hurt tourism. I've always found the Dutch very receptive on this, always making regulations "inoperative" if they tended to hurt the economy.
An example is i.e. the attitude to AF. Officially, since 2000, it is not allowed to sell or apply AF containing copper. After years of controversy and complaints by the HISWA (association of pleasure craft businesses), the regulation was not withdrawn, but made "inoperative" in actual fact.
duncan
Active member
I wish you hadn't stated 'tax free' against red - (1) it isn't and (2) it will confuse things
Bergman
New member
Well OK
But its all ifs and buts and might be
In effect you are saying I should risk losing several hundred pounds purely on the whim of some customs officer
Afraid its not good enough
I don't see how it reassures anyone - thereis not a winner in this unless, as has been implied, that the way to avoid this is to bribe the customs people. And I for one am not going down that route.
There are other places to instead of Holland, Belgium springs to mind, not very much further and they have tax free fuel.
I really do not see why you are defending this - there is no winner - everyone loses,
Fewer if any British boats will visit Holland so Holland loses.
A really nice country with great people is effectively closed to us as a cruising ground so we lose
A truly great policy.
But its all ifs and buts and might be
In effect you are saying I should risk losing several hundred pounds purely on the whim of some customs officer
Afraid its not good enough
I don't see how it reassures anyone - thereis not a winner in this unless, as has been implied, that the way to avoid this is to bribe the customs people. And I for one am not going down that route.
There are other places to instead of Holland, Belgium springs to mind, not very much further and they have tax free fuel.
I really do not see why you are defending this - there is no winner - everyone loses,
Fewer if any British boats will visit Holland so Holland loses.
A really nice country with great people is effectively closed to us as a cruising ground so we lose
A truly great policy.
Bergman
New member
Yes
I wondered about that.
Part of the problem is that in Ireland red is green - if you see what I mean, so that might confuse them more.
Dunno what colour they have in Belgium.
Perhaps I should have said duty free, but too late now. Don't suppose anything will happen, nothing to our benefit has ever happened in the EU.
I did copy it to my MEPs (apparently I have six of the buggers) so if the Ombudsman wants clarification they should be able to get it from at least one of them. Assuming they can find time between completing their expenses claims.
I wondered about that.
Part of the problem is that in Ireland red is green - if you see what I mean, so that might confuse them more.
Dunno what colour they have in Belgium.
Perhaps I should have said duty free, but too late now. Don't suppose anything will happen, nothing to our benefit has ever happened in the EU.
I did copy it to my MEPs (apparently I have six of the buggers) so if the Ombudsman wants clarification they should be able to get it from at least one of them. Assuming they can find time between completing their expenses claims.
Seven Spades
Well-known member
I am afraid that letter to The Dutch forign Embassy will not change thier attitude as they are civil servents and will simply follow the line given to them by their Customs and Execise. Representations must be political and that means we must all write to our MP's and MEP to highlighth this situation. We will need questions to be raised in the house an d representations to be made to their counterparts.
The Dutch interperation is going to be probelmatic, as after we have lost the right to buty red deisel here we can continue to buy it legally in the Channel Islands. It must be understood that we should not face prosecution here for doing something outside of EU teritorial waters and jurisdiction upon our return.
The Dutch interperation is going to be probelmatic, as after we have lost the right to buty red deisel here we can continue to buy it legally in the Channel Islands. It must be understood that we should not face prosecution here for doing something outside of EU teritorial waters and jurisdiction upon our return.
duncan
Active member
two things -
1. CIs fuel is white
2. The customs guys are simply doing what the civil servants tell them - it shouldn't be any other way
Any fight is with the cicil servants - they wouldn't want it any other way. Embassy folk may however be a little different!
1. CIs fuel is white
2. The customs guys are simply doing what the civil servants tell them - it shouldn't be any other way
Any fight is with the cicil servants - they wouldn't want it any other way. Embassy folk may however be a little different!
thalassa
Member
[ QUOTE ]
There are other places to instead of Holland, Belgium springs to mind, not very much further and they have tax free fuel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not anymore. Belgian tax derogation ended -together with the UK's - on Jan 1st 2007.
There are other places to instead of Holland, Belgium springs to mind, not very much further and they have tax free fuel.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not anymore. Belgian tax derogation ended -together with the UK's - on Jan 1st 2007.
LadyInBed
Well-known member
I have forwarded the mail to SW MEP Giles Chichester giles@gileschichestermep.org.uk
As his name and his Website proports a sailing interest - we shall see . . . . . /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Also Graham Watson MEP LibDem euro_office@cix.co.uk
Graham Booth MEP UKIP SW gbooth@ukip.org
Glyn Ford MEP Labour glyn.ford@europarl.europa.eu
Neil Parish, Conservative MEP nparishmep@bridgwest.demon.co.uk
Caroline Jackson Conservative MEP cjackson@europarl.eu.int
The list goes on!!
As his name and his Website proports a sailing interest - we shall see . . . . . /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Also Graham Watson MEP LibDem euro_office@cix.co.uk
Graham Booth MEP UKIP SW gbooth@ukip.org
Glyn Ford MEP Labour glyn.ford@europarl.europa.eu
Neil Parish, Conservative MEP nparishmep@bridgwest.demon.co.uk
Caroline Jackson Conservative MEP cjackson@europarl.eu.int
The list goes on!!
Emjaytoo
New member
I have taken this matter up with the RYA, as we have just moved Emjaytoo to The Netherlands where she will be permanently berthed.
Their comment was:-
[ QUOTE ]
With regard to the yacht in Holland, we understand the owner did not
have a recipt for the 'red' fuel purchased in the UK and therefore no
proof that the fuel had been purchased, and was being used, legitmately.
[/ QUOTE ]
So perhaps it is not as big a problem as it first appears.
Their comment was:-
[ QUOTE ]
With regard to the yacht in Holland, we understand the owner did not
have a recipt for the 'red' fuel purchased in the UK and therefore no
proof that the fuel had been purchased, and was being used, legitmately.
[/ QUOTE ]
So perhaps it is not as big a problem as it first appears.
LadyInBed
Well-known member
Not very helpful when fuel is purchased using a Fuel Card, debited from your bank, and statement sent at end of month!
duncan
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
Not very helpful when fuel is purchased using a Fuel Card, debited from your bank, and statement sent at end of month!
[/ QUOTE ]
just take last months statement!
I had the same thought though but concluded the above pretty quickly.
btw Nigel - this time last year (Friday) I passed you off Anvil heading South - I will be doing the same trip again ; will you be out there too?
Not very helpful when fuel is purchased using a Fuel Card, debited from your bank, and statement sent at end of month!
[/ QUOTE ]
just take last months statement!
I had the same thought though but concluded the above pretty quickly.
btw Nigel - this time last year (Friday) I passed you off Anvil heading South - I will be doing the same trip again ; will you be out there too?
LadyInBed
Well-known member
"just take last months statement!"
I would have got around to thinking of doing that - eventually /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Re: Heading South - probably not, managed to find myself a job! But angling to get laid off for August /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I would have got around to thinking of doing that - eventually /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Re: Heading South - probably not, managed to find myself a job! But angling to get laid off for August /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
jamesjermain
Active member
I have received the following email from teh Cruising Manager of the RYA.
Hi James,
Yes we are aware of it, when Carol researched it further it transpired that the guy in question did not have a receipt to prove that he bought the fuel in the UK. The following was extracted by Neil Northmore from the EU Directorate General for Taxation and Customs:
According to the Community excise legislation and the jurisprudence of
the European Court of Justice, in case of fuel transported in the normal
fuel storage tank, the excise duty is chargeable in the Member State of
acquisition according to the national rules. It falls upon the Commission
to enforce the compliance of national legislation with Community law.
Consequently, in the meantime, people can acquire red diesel in
the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if
transported in the normal fuel storage tank.
I hope this is of assistance.
Neil N and I have discussed this at length and unless it can be shown that the Dutch or anyone else is misinterpreting the above then there is little we can represent at the moment. However I do agree that we should remind our members to carry receipts and to log engine hours to avoid this particular poo trap.
Kind Regards
Stuart Carruthers
The lack of a receipt seems to be the key thing, except that the Duch Embassy reaction seems to infer that receipt or not, Dutch Customs will be hurling books at innocent Brits
Hi James,
Yes we are aware of it, when Carol researched it further it transpired that the guy in question did not have a receipt to prove that he bought the fuel in the UK. The following was extracted by Neil Northmore from the EU Directorate General for Taxation and Customs:
According to the Community excise legislation and the jurisprudence of
the European Court of Justice, in case of fuel transported in the normal
fuel storage tank, the excise duty is chargeable in the Member State of
acquisition according to the national rules. It falls upon the Commission
to enforce the compliance of national legislation with Community law.
Consequently, in the meantime, people can acquire red diesel in
the UK and use it legally in another member state of the European Union, if
transported in the normal fuel storage tank.
I hope this is of assistance.
Neil N and I have discussed this at length and unless it can be shown that the Dutch or anyone else is misinterpreting the above then there is little we can represent at the moment. However I do agree that we should remind our members to carry receipts and to log engine hours to avoid this particular poo trap.
Kind Regards
Stuart Carruthers
The lack of a receipt seems to be the key thing, except that the Duch Embassy reaction seems to infer that receipt or not, Dutch Customs will be hurling books at innocent Brits
duncan
Active member
well customs certainly seem to have a rather different view as they have apparantly communicated to thier embasy in London
[ QUOTE ]
Reply:
Thank you very much for your email. In the meantime we have received more emails about this matter regarding red diesel for pleasure crafts. I have contacted the Dutch Customs and I have been told that recently pleasure crafts are not allowed to use "red diesel" anymore. Instead "white diesel" should be used. For more detailed information, I would advise you to contact the Dutch customs directly. Please find their contact details below:
Dutch Customs
Website: www.douane.nl > English
Telephone: +31 45 5743 031 (press option 2)
If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
[/ QUOTE ]
no doubt the RYA will follow this very specific quote up?
[ QUOTE ]
Reply:
Thank you very much for your email. In the meantime we have received more emails about this matter regarding red diesel for pleasure crafts. I have contacted the Dutch Customs and I have been told that recently pleasure crafts are not allowed to use "red diesel" anymore. Instead "white diesel" should be used. For more detailed information, I would advise you to contact the Dutch customs directly. Please find their contact details below:
Dutch Customs
Website: www.douane.nl > English
Telephone: +31 45 5743 031 (press option 2)
If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.
[/ QUOTE ]
no doubt the RYA will follow this very specific quote up?
rhumlady
New member
All very well saying that red diesel is not allowed any more but how long will it take to get rid of the dye, even if the statement by there customs was true.?
Seven Spades
Well-known member
It is pretty irrelevant, how long it will take as the British government seems in no hurry to prevent the sale of red diesel at the moment.
I only seem to fill up once or possibly twice a season and even then I don't let the tank get anywhere near empty. I expect that there will be traces of red diesel in my tank for years after I stop being able to buy it.
I did a little calculation: If I fill up twice a season when the tank is 2/3rds empty for 6 years my tank will still be 590.49ppm red diesel and if I top up when 60% of the fuel has been used then my tank will be 4194.3ppm red!
How on earth are we going to be able to escape this madness?
I only seem to fill up once or possibly twice a season and even then I don't let the tank get anywhere near empty. I expect that there will be traces of red diesel in my tank for years after I stop being able to buy it.
I did a little calculation: If I fill up twice a season when the tank is 2/3rds empty for 6 years my tank will still be 590.49ppm red diesel and if I top up when 60% of the fuel has been used then my tank will be 4194.3ppm red!
How on earth are we going to be able to escape this madness?
Seven Spades
Well-known member
If you fill up when you tank is 4/5ths empty, you will be 2.048ppm after 6 years.
I would not link to be running around with my tank 4/5 empty.
I would not link to be running around with my tank 4/5 empty.
Andrew_Fanner
New member
>>>
How on earth are we going to be able to escape this madness?
>>>
By quitting the EU.
How on earth are we going to be able to escape this madness?
>>>
By quitting the EU.