DSC and radios

[giraffehappy]

I am about to buy a radio.....Is it cheaper to get a marine VHF DSC, plus a ham wide band snipped for marine frequencies ( which does not have DSC), or get a marine wide band with DSC and snip it for ham frequencies..
I know what I am proposing is not legal, but I will have all neccesary qualifications to operate, and refuse to have 3 radios...
Please advise!

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[Anonymous]

You surprise me in that if you do have all the necessary qualifications you don't know that ham rigs don't need to be 'snipped' to operate on the marine bands. Most ham sets allow the operator to work outside the amateur bands and the onus is on the amateur to ensure that he does not operate outside the terms of his licence. However, marine sets may not (and do not in the case of UK approved sets) operate outside the marine bands.

I suppose that the closest to what you want to do is an 'open' Icom M710 for MF/HF plus DSC but the DSC is very expensive and without it you have no way to send a distress alert (unless you use some other means such as satellite phone, flares, or whatever :-0).

It is a big problem and you are not alone. Nobody wants to install two seperate radio systems covering the same basic bands either from the cost or space point of view, but that is what the regulations in the UK require (for UK flagged vessels and UK licenced operators).

The biggest potential problem I can see is to be boarded by officials who want to have a go at you (for whatever reason) - you are leaving yourself wide open and in some countries you might find your vessel embargoed or even impounded (not that I've ever heard of either happening). It's far too great a risk for me to want to take because a good deal of my capital is in my boat.

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[ccscott49]

Not sure you could "Snip" a marine DSC vhf radio, for ham VHF frequencies. You could of course buy a ham set in MF SSB, to cover both ham and marine MF/HF, freq. These are freely available. Well not free, you would have to buy it!!

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[Sea Devil]

The open M710 route seems best. Nobody can tell if your set is 'open' or not unless they actually start operating it. It is so unlikly any official will check it is not worth loosing any sleep about. I have never met a cruising boat ever that did not have a snipped/open ssb. Except one or two hams who had several sets on board as it was their hobby...
If you are in serious need of help the radio examiners advised on a course recently that you use your sat telephone to contact Falmouth coastguard!!!!!!

DSC may well alert merchat ships to you but it depends very much on their flag and master and his bosses if they will actually 'hear' and come to help.

DSC seems very popular in UK waters but again few if any cruising boats have it - they are the ones most likly to help you. They will not have DSC so it is a matter of opinion if its worth fitting. I would not. By the way my set is snipped.


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[trouville]

Its apity we cant call for help on ch16 anymore? Or the old distress 2???? khz

Howevever i arrived about 15 miles off the Italian coast on the way to France when my alternator control gave up and cooked a battary!! It was only by chance i noticed it, and it was boiling! i have two alternators and it was the service battrey one that gave up.

I anchord on a handy sand bank or sand rock with a small light tower on it, The engine was playing up as well . There was not a breath of wind and a forcast force 8 for that night! That part of the coast is shallow and open up to La spizia. To be on the safe side i phoned the coast guard i have a 10watt car phone on board, They said they would only save me if i was in trouble and i would have to make arrangements for the boat!!
I prepared to leave got the jib on the rails and snacks coffee ready for a rough nights sail then the coast guard came out to look at me! They looked at my engin and diegnosed dirty fule. And offerd me a mooring for the night off we went untill the engin stopped. happily i had already prepard a container and syphen to feed good fule to the engin--we threaded our way through sand banks and shallows to a super mooring where i spent a very very plesant week!!
If id called on the VHF or SSB it would have been formal and i wouldent have got the mooring!!

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[giraffehappy]

Thanx for the advice. I am studying for my intermediate exam (ham licence), and will take advanced if successful in April. The radio shops I have been to have had ham radios that did not cover the marine frequencies, and had no DSC, unless marine VHF/HF.

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[BrendanS]

You can call for help on CH16. This has not changed

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[Anonymous]

Have a look at www.nevada.co.uk No Ham sets will have DSC and all marine SSBs transmit only on J3E (Single Sideband Suppressed Carrier, Upper Sideband), also called USB on some marine sets. Up to 10MHz the convention is for amateurs to use LSB and USB thereafter - but it isn't a requirement, just a convention.

The Icom M710 was approved for marine use in the UK and is therefore legal but they are no longer available new in the UK, so you'd have to get one second hand. It is easy to 'open' them but a professional will only charge you £25 or so, I was told, so why fiddle? In any case, check your M710 before fiddling because you might find that it is 'open' anyway. Not everyone shouts that fact from the rooftops, for obvious reasons, if they have installed it on a vessel.

It is very unlikely that an officious official would know how to tell if your M710 was open I rather suspect that OfCom have better things to do with their time than nit-pick about individual sets being operated by a licenced full amateur holding a LRC, unless there were reports of a problem, but I stand to be corrected if anyone knows better?

As for the VHF, that really is a seperate installation and has a seperate antenna, at the masthead. It is best to get a VHF with integral DSC, I think. If you are going for the LRC don't bother getting the VHF restricted first as the LRC covers both. I don't think it makes sense to even consider mixing Ham VHF with marine VHF - these are low-cost high-volume sets and it would be far more trouble than it's worth. You could share the aerial, though. I can't think of anything in the license that actually prevents that but there might well be some regs that I'm not aware of.

Good luck with your studies. There is quite a lot to learn as I found, even as a qualified electronics engineer.

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[Ships_Cat]

I agree with you David in that providing valid amateur and maritime radio service licences/certificates are held I also suspect that no one is going to worry too much if a marine set (but not an amateur set) has been enabled to operate in both services.

Cannot speak for the UK, but generally how it worked in many countries is that if one bought a marine MF/HF set and produced evidence of an amateur licence to the supplier they would enable it for the amateur service.

The IC-M802 sort of works somewhat in the same way in that it is normally supplied only transmitting in the marine bands but can be enabled to transmit anywhere by a pressing a key combination while turning it on (the setting is not volatile and is reversible by repeating the method). The method is not in the manual but, of course, it soon became generally known.

John

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[trouville]

Thats BrendanS I dident really think ch16 had changed, but a year or two ago i read so much about having to buy a new VHF and at some time we can stop using the old one etc etc In the med its possiable to imagin nothing changes---except the number and size of boats hear!! As it happens my old Kelvin heuse? packed up with rust and i droped my icom m7 over board, the anntena caught on the guard rail and that was it!!

Now on another thread hear i found a ?? i forget handheld up to date for £143 looks good. So i supose im ok or will be?? is CH 16 to be kept?

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[BrendanS]

In the UK, all that is happening is that the coastguard have gone from having a person listening full time on Ch16 on headphones, to having a speaker in the ops room (they record, and have instant playback capability)

Not sure what exactly will happen in other countries, but is likely to be very similar

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[Mike_Martin]

A legal Amateur radio will not have a DSC controller as DSC operation is a Maritime requirement and Maritime frequencies are not legally usable by an Amateur.

When you have passed your exam and applied for your Amateur radio licence and callsign you will see that the licence does not allow you to transmit outside of the Amateur bands. Likewise your Maritime operators' certificate does not authorise you to operate outside of the Maritime bands.

To operate on Maritime frequencies, the INTERNATIONAL (not UK) requirements are that the equipment operates on specific frequencies, at specific powers in a specific way, this is how the Maritime service is managed world wide. The ship station licence and your Maritime operators certificate only allow use of specified Maritime kit.

Worth highlighting that if caught both licences (Amateur & Ship) can be revoked for the proposed type of illegal operation.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Mike_Martin]

Quote <blockquote><font size=1>Quote from previous post:</font><hr>

It is very unlikely that an officious official would know how to tell if your M710 was open I rather suspect that OfCom have better things to do with their time than nit-pick about individual sets being operated by a licenced full amateur holding a LRC, unless there were reports of a problem, but I stand to be corrected if anyone knows better?"

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Possibly true although remember that Ofcom inspectors are actually radio engineers rather than traffic wardens, also don't forget that such an illegal operation also invalidates warranty!

Mike


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Mike_Martin]

Just to correct the perception that post can cause!

Moving from a dedicated Operator wearing headphones and consistently monitoring Channel 16 with little or no interruption, to a loudspeaker in an often busy Ops room with phones ringing, DSC alerts sounding, Inmarsat terminals bleeping etc is actually quite a big change!

However, the complete shut-down of channel 16 monitoring appears to have been stayed by the IMO who have asked that Merchant shipping and SAR authorities continue to monitor C16 after 2005. This still means that the response could be less than what you would like if you are in trouble.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Mike_Martin]

Channel 16 is still partially monitored by HMCG on loudspeaker and Pleasure craft. However the Merchant men seem to have dropped it when they were required to move to DSC radios.

2182 kHz was not given as much "grace" time as the majority of its use is coomercial vessels. So the use of 2187.5 kHz DSC came in very quickly world wide.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[trouville]

I wonder why they went up 5.5khz??As the rules allow a ship in reall distress to use any means at their disposal, would a a normal voice call on the new frequency be answerd!!

Thanks for the link

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[Anonymous]

>>Possibly true although remember that Ofcom inspectors are actually radio engineers rather than traffic wardens,....<<

Yes, after I sent that message I realised that it didn't come across the way I had intended. There are officials in some countries who try to make life difficult, sometimes in the hope of getting a back-hander. Most people who are considering HF/MF for their boats are planning on going off the beaten track.

As for the OfCom inspectors, I rather assumed that they wouldn't be likely to visit for the sake of visiting.

My own take on this is that I went through the whole decision process myself recently and came to the conclusion that it was not unduly difficult or expensive to be legal and the training for both amateur and marine would be useful. I think I made the right decision and it is nice to have peace of mind both in the UK and off the beaten track.

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[Anonymous]

>>Channel 16 is still partially monitored by HMCG on loudspeaker and Pleasure craft. However the Merchant men seem to have dropped it when they were required to move to DSC radios.<<

I sailed across Solent to Trouville, return, at night, a few weeks ago at a very busy time and I heard many calls (around a dozen?) from ships asking other ships about their intentions - all seemed to get a reply, so for what this small 'poll' is worth, the commercials are still listening on Ch16. I rather suspect that they always will - after all, it is the most basic form of radio distress available and, having non-emergency use, is more common than emergency-only systems such as DSC alerts or EPIRBS. Not all mariners do things because they are obliged to do them.

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[Mike_Martin]

It's similar to VHF, where now the International Distress, Safety and Calling Channel is Channel 70 and it is DSC only due to the newer technology involved. This also answers you second question.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>

 

[Mike_Martin]

A fair point, if a little localised.

However I am sure that everyone remembers all the fuss back in 1999, when the GMDSS finally went "live", about the SOLAS fleets sacking or re-training all their ROs due to the fact that DISTRESS monitoring is done by the radio.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101>http://www.ofcom.org.uk/licensing_numbering/radiocomms/maritime_licensing/?a=87101</A>