Dropping or keeping old traditions

[Dutch01527]

Many of the methods of operation that were mandated either by law or operating procedures in Royal or Merchant Navy ships have passed down to small lesuire craft as best practice for seaman like operations.

Despite being schooled the traditional way and understanding that some people take satisfaction in the traditional ways I find that I have dropped many activities that I do not judge to add value e.g.

Use of paper charts ( have them onboard as back up)
Hourly fixes
Keeping a ships log
Passage planning using chart and tide tables
Always hoisting the ensign dawn to dusk in UK waters - mainly because the damm thing flapps around my head with a stern wind
Calibrating the compass

I am not convinced that any of the above have diminished the safety or seaman like integrity of the boat. I do accept that not knowing how to do them if required would be inappropriate. Any views?

 

[rotrax]

We keep a log on passage and enter position, COG and SOG hourly.

Passage planning is used for tidal gates and changes as well as trying to arrive at a new port in daylight. Even with our big engine, adverse tide cuts speed big time.

We have paper charts and can use them should the need arrise.

We also have a maintenance log, jobs done, jobs to do.

Never calibrated a compass, but it is checked against the handheld and Autopilot heading.

I dont think I would be happy not knowing where I was, where I was heading and at what speed at the last log entry should we have a total electronic failure.

 

[dansaskip]

Use of paper charts - Yes

Hourly fixes- Depending on where i am and what I am doing sometimes longer than an hour - for example long ocean passage or more frequent - like "ticking off" bouys as I pass them

Keeping a ships log - Oh yes and besides it gives me a record of where I have been, how long it took me etc.

Passage planning using chart and tide tables- Yes again how else do you know about passing safely those tidal gates?

Always hoisting the ensign dawn to dusk in UK waters - didn't used to but do now after sailing in foreign waters

Calibrating the compass- was checked some time ago

Like Rotax I wouldn't feel safe without doing all these things and having a record of where I was independently of electronics

 

[FWB]

I have paper charts but they are unlikely to be needed.
The UKHO seems to agree….
Withdrawing production of paper charts | ADMIRALTY

 

[Sandy]

Any views?

You may be surprised if you come sailing with me. I've been designing a new log book that can record all of the data I require, now looking for somebody who can print and bind them in small runs.

I gather in and tie the ensign to stop it flapping near the stern light.

I will always use paper charts for planning and while underway, I consider the decision of the UKHO to stop printing charts as very, very silly. Thank goodness we have other sources; I really like NV Charts for the south of England, Irmay are my new go to charts for the rest of the UK.

Personally, I'd ban the use of locking turn(s) on an OXO, there is a significant fine on my boat if I spot one, a bottle of Highland Park 12 year old on first offence. This doubles on each repeat offence, 1-2-4-8-16-32.

 

[Dutch01527]

Sorry, my initial post should have been a bit more specific. I still do most of the things on the list, the question I intended to ask was about the method of doing them. I have dropped day to day use of paper charts and tide tables and use electronic apps instead for example.

Navigation - Navionics on tablet, phone and chart plotter with SavvyNavvy as back up. I know my position exactly all the time up on charts that are fully updated. If one device or app fails I have multiple levels of resilience.
Passage planning - as above with multiple scenarios saved. For example plan tide, current wind etc for a 10.00 am departure and save. Change departure time to 11.00am etc so that I can see effects of delays or slow progress and save again. Much quick to do adhoc planning. The precise answer to a question such as how much water will be over the bar at our new eta of 14.44 can be accessed in the cockpit in seconds for example.
Log - sog, cog, position recorded as trip by the apps. I do not feel the need to note weather, time bilge was pumped etc etc. I know that when coastal cruising

To me this way of operating is safer and more efficient than traditional methods, provided one can still revert to the manual method when required.

 

[Daydream believer]

Personally, I'd ban the use of locking turn(s) on an OXO, there is a significant fine on my boat if I spot one, a bottle of Highland Park 12 year old on first offence. This doubles on each repeat offence, 1-2-4-8-16-32.

I would never put a line on a cleat WITHOUT a locking turn at the end. It is a bit like like figure 8s on the ends of line. I always have them regardless of the use. It is surprising how many do not bother.
But on regards to the OP's post I do not fly the ensign in UK waters, Abroad I leave it up all the time unless I want to avoid customs . In which case I roll it round the staff all the time. The rest of the notes I stick with. My grid steering compass is as accurate as I can steer & I have a very good hand bearing compass to check too. I can always do a GPS check if worried.

 

[Slowboat35]

I'd like to see anyone who hasn't got a track drawn on a chart and regular positions noted in a log (hourly? HOURLY???!!!) cope easily with a plotter failure mid Thames estuary.
Particularly someone who habitually 'navigates' in this extrordianary manner and is thus well out of practice in doing things properly...

 

[FWB]

I'd like to see anyone who hasn't got a track drawn on a chart and regular positions noted in a log (hourly? HOURLY???!!!) cope easily with a plotter failure mid Thames estuary.
Particularly someone who habitually 'navigates' in this extrordianary manner and is thus well out of practice in doing things properly...

If the ChartPlotter failed then I have charts with gps position on iPhone, 3 iPads and an android tablet aboard. I do have paper charts bought in pre modern times.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I was an early adopter of electronic navigation, proper Decca on an offshore RIB. and then early GPS on a small boat but used for transferring position onto a paper chart and depending what I was doing it stayed that way until I retired 9 years ago. On one of my "milk Runs" Plymouth to Falmouth or Fowey all I would do would be to check the tide and mentally tick of headlands and the odd buoy. Crossing to the French coast though always involved an hourly plot on a paper chart with a note of a light bearing and expected buoyage. longer offshore passages the positional plots were usually at 3 hour intervals with COG, SOG wind speed and direction all marked on the chart which effectively became the ships passage log, I was never one for or interested in a narrative log.
When I moved to a new cruising area (East Coast) I was more diligent about tides, and positional plots for coastal sailing especially around the Thames estuary and river entrances but everything was noted on a chart not a written log, in fact the only time I have kept a written log was for submitting on race qualifying passages.

 

[johnalison]

I would never put a line on a cleat WITHOUT a locking turn at the end. It is a bit like like figure 8s on the ends of line. I always have them regardless of the use. It is surprising how many do not bother.
But on regards to the OP's post I do not fly the ensign in UK waters, Abroad I leave it up all the time unless I want to avoid customs . In which case I roll it round the staff all the time. The rest of the notes I stick with. My grid steering compass is as accurate as I can steer & I have a very good hand bearing compass to check too. I can always do a GPS check if worried.

I'm with you on locking turns with synthetic line, even if the attachment has started with a full round turn, and find it vastly preferable the the kind of bird's nest often seen.
I'm not sure that modern methods are necessarily safer than of old, unless full consideration has been given to redundancy issues. For myself, I have paper charts of wherever I go, but am not good at keeping them up to date.
I have always kept a proper log, with hourly records, when going offshore, but not for coastal sailing. For many years I kept a narrative log but found it hard to keep up the initiative and haven't done so for some years now, which a pity, since the old ones are quite entertaining for us.
I fly an ensign when out, even for a trip round the bay, because I think it shows respect.
I once corrected a compass with 14 degrees of deviation from a bracket that I couldn't be bothered to re-site and that went well, but since then I have merely sighted along the boat with a hand-bearing compass to check that all's well, preferable from onshore.

 

[mjcoon]

... For many years I kept a narrative log but found it hard to keep up the initiative and haven't done so for some years now, which a pity, since the old ones are quite entertaining for us.

As Gyles Brandreth in his autobiography quotes Oscar Wilde having one of his characters say: "I never travel without my diary. One should always have something sensational to read in the train."

 

[MisterBaxter]

My personal priority is to operate with a set of equipment and skills that provides multiple levels of redundancy, so that the failure of any one piece of electronic kit, or even the complete loss of all electrical power, would be no more than a mild inconvenience. Paper charts, an accurate compass and a lead line are probably always going to be the final fall-back point in such a system (a Walker log would be a nice thing to have on board too).
Of course, alongside that you also ideally want the boat set up and maintained such that there's almost no realistic scenario in which you'd end up using them...

 

[awol]

I would never put a line on a cleat WITHOUT a locking turn at the end. It is a bit like like figure 8s on the ends of line. I always have them regardless of the use. It is surprising how many do not bother.
But on regards to the OP's post I do not fly the ensign in UK waters, Abroad I leave it up all the time unless I want to avoid customs . In which case I roll it round the staff all the time. The rest of the notes I stick with. My grid steering compass is as accurate as I can steer & I have a very good hand bearing compass to check too. I can always do a GPS check if worried.

Locking turns - ok on shore cleats but never on board my boat - learn to cleat properly! Figure of 8s - never on spinnaker haliards, sheets or guys - crew is more valuable than a sail. Ensign between sunset/08.00 to sunset/21.00 whichever is earlier - what's the point of having a blue if you don't show it off?

 

[Sandy]

I would never put a line on a cleat WITHOUT a locking turn at the end. It is a bit like like figure 8s on the ends of line. I always have them regardless of the use. It is surprising how many do not bother.

Try undoing one with 100 tonne of boat being pulled by a 2 knot current especially if it locking turn is put on incorrectly.

I saw so many poorly tied OXOs with not one, but often five locking turns on the east coast I wondered if any of the boats ever moved without taking a chainsaw to the OXO.

The Admiralty Stopper Knot is a much nicer knot on the end of a line, more to grab onto on a cold winter's night.

 

[Capt Popeye]

My personal priority is to operate with a set of equipment and skills that provides multiple levels of redundancy, so that the failure of any one piece of electronic kit, or even the complete loss of all electrical power, would be no more than a mild inconvenience. Paper charts, an accurate compass and a lead line are probably always going to be the final fall-back point in such a system (a Walker log would be a nice thing to have on board too).
Of course, alongside that you also ideally want the boat set up and maintained such that there's almost no realistic scenario in which you'd end up using them...

Locking turns - ok on shore cleats but never on board my boat - learn to cleat properly! Figure of 8s - never on spinnaker haliards, sheets or guys - crew is more valuable than a sail. Ensign between sunset/08.00 to sunset/21.00 whichever is earlier - what's the point of having a blue if you don't show it off?

Well my stance is that MB above shows the experience really necessary aboard any craft ; a Belt n Braces Sailor , who is aware of the oft strange matters that can arrise when afloat ; reads as an experienced Sailor prepared for most events

What is it with this figures of eights ; surely only the very minimum of 'eights' is best required ; more than is necessary just looks most amature to me ; what really gets my Goat is observing docking lines with many figure of 'eights' all bunched up ontop of each other , rather like a Crows Nest ; most untidy and amature in my view

 

[Capt Popeye]

Try undoing one with 100 tonne of boat being pulled by a 2 knot current especially if it locking turn is put on incorrectly.

I saw so many poorly tied OXOs with not one, but often five locking turns on the east coast I wondered if any of the boats ever moved without taking a chainsaw to the OXO.

The Admiralty Stopper Knot is a much nicer knot on the end of a line, more to grab onto on a cold winter's night.

Surely any experienced Commercial Sailor would use a 'lightermans hitch' when making fast to another vessel ; that hitch can easily be untied in haste whatever the line loading that its under ?

The 'Lightermans Hitch' is basically 3 full turns then the line is taken over itself and a loose hitch over the bollard ; this hitch can easily be undone using either hand , whatever the line load is ; this hitch can easily plus safely be cast off

Might state that only 1 locking turn is required , after the figure of 8 is completed , so duno why one expects any more that that ?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Well might comment that the original poster , is possibly incorrect in any references to Seamanship originating in the Navy , as my understanding is that early Commercial Shipping / Fishing set most of our standards , only odd ones like Flag etiquete plus Rum poss were Navy traditions

 

[Dutch01527]

Well might comment that the original poster , is possibly incorrect in any references to Seamanship originating in the Navy , as my understanding is that early Commercial Shipping / Fishing set most of our standards , only odd ones like Flag etiquete plus Rum poss were Navy traditions

Interesting. My experience was as a Merchant Navy Navigating Officer not Royal Navy in the 1980’s, and I assumed that the Royal Navy was similar. I would be interested to know if that is not so.

I agree with the comments about resilience. A tablet and iPhone each with two apps, battery charging both from boat batteries and a big power bank and a chart plotter, backed up by paper charts is massively resilient. The main safety advantages to me of electronic navigation vs paper charts are constant updates and the speed of revising plans as circumstances change.

I very experienced and wise sailor once said to me “ what would Drake or Nelson have done”. I think that they would have used the electronic tools we have available today. That is what airline pilots have done for years in a much more taxing environment.

 

[penfold]

MAIB and dibble may be interested in the event of an incident if you do not maintain a log and carry a passage plan; those are required items. Brevity is a virtue when writing them though.