Dropping or keeping old traditions

[Daydream believer]

Try undoing one with 100 tonne of boat being pulled by a 2 knot current especially if it locking turn is put on incorrectly.

I saw so many poorly tied OXOs with not one, but often five locking turns on the east coast I wondered if any of the boats ever moved without taking a chainsaw to the OXO.

The Admiralty Stopper Knot is a much nicer knot on the end of a line, more to grab onto on a cold winter's night.

I do not sail a 100 tonne boat. . Furthermore I do not put a locking turn on every crossover.
Would not a 100 Tonne boat not have bollards? having never looked I do not know. If so that is a different situation & not what immediately springs to mind when discussing "cleats"
So in my case , that comment is pretty much irrelevant. I am not sure how many forumites do wander about in such craft. Unless in a commercial situation with professional crew.

How you come to be swinging a 100 tonne boat about in a 2 knot tide with an unprepared cleated rope that has no attendant in control makes me wonder. But you know otherwise. Or so it seems.

 

[Daydream believer]

Figure of 8s - never on spinnaker haliards, sheets or guys -

Can you explain exactly why not please. I have only been sailing for 65 years & have seen ropes run through blocks & lines due to the failure to put in stoppers.
Particularly dinghies. But cruisers with high loads can be difficult if a line is lost. Racing with the kite up in a close fleet & a sheet gets lost can cause all sorts of panic & accidents with crew running about trying to grab the end.
Even a short control line can cause havoc if released too far & has to be re threadled.
Especially when single handed.
But I am willing to learn. What have I been doing wrong all this time?

 

[tillergirl]

I know my position exactly all the time up on charts that are fully updated.

Could you define what you mean by 'fully updated'? Does that mean that Navionics has updated everything the same day as the UKHO issues a NtM?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Can you explain exactly why not please. I have only been sailing for 60 years & have seen ropes run through blocks & lines due to the failure to put in stoppers.
Particularly dinghies. But cruisers with high loads can be difficult if a line is lost. Racing with the kite up in a close fleet & a sheet gets lost can cause all sorts of panic & accidents with crew running about trying to grab the end.
Even a short control line can cause havoc if released too far & has to be re threadled.
Especially when single handed.
But I am willing to learn. What have I been doing wrong all this time?

I think the FM has some notion that it’s safer to fly your kite without stopper knots. Perhaps his sheets aren’t long enough. Or his knife isn’t accessible from the cockpit.

 

[awol]

Can you explain exactly why not please. I have only been sailing for 60 years & have seen ropes run through blocks & lines due to the failure to put in stoppers.
Particularly dinghies. But cruisers with high loads can be difficult if a line is lost. Racing with the kite up in a close fleet & a sheet gets lost can cause all sorts of panic & accidents with crew running about trying to grab the end.
Even a short control line can cause havoc if released too far & has to be re threadled.
Especially when single handed.
But I am willing to learn. What have I been doing wrong all this time?

Running downwind, crew goes overboard or someone else's crew or dangerous shit happens - just let the kite fly. Sheets, guys, halyard all run and the kite is gone. The one time I did it the spinnaker floated long enough to be retrieved. My halyard, sheets and guys have sufficient length that I have never lost them. Think about how far you can travel while finding a knife to cut a line (or more than one) with its stopper knot hard against a block or clutch or how long it takes to douse the chute with a key crew member swimming along in your wake.
However, it's your boat, your crew, your choice - my and all the boats I sail on won't have stopper knots in spinnaker lines.

Edit: ........ and then there's the rising wind when you don't have a flare gun handy!
Edit 2: Possibly a left-over from racing boats that rolled like pigs with a broach never too far away and crew who needed both hands just to hold on!

 

[Daydream believer]

However, it's your boat, your crew, your choice - my and all the boats I sail on won't have stopper knots in spinnaker lines.

Yes. It is my boat. If I go over then there is most likely no one to release anything anyway.
I have rarely had to release lines to that extent in an emergency. Let a sheet fly for a minute, yes, of course. But if I wanted to dump a kite I cannot see what is wrong with releasing the stopper first . Just letting things fly willy nilly suggests panic. That is the start of failure.

 

[Sandy]

Surely any experienced Commercial Sailor would use a 'lightermans hitch' when making fast to another vessel ; that hitch can easily be untied in haste whatever the line loading that its under ?

The 'Lightermans Hitch' is basically 3 full turns then the line is taken over itself and a loose hitch over the bollard ; this hitch can easily be undone using either hand , whatever the line load is ; this hitch can easily plus safely be cast off

Might state that only 1 locking turn is required , after the figure of 8 is completed , so duno why one expects any more that that ?

The Lightermans Hitch is not in our Standard Operating Procedures and thus not used.

 

[awol]

Yes. It is my boat. If I go over then there is most likely no one to release anything anyway.
I have rarely had to release lines to that extent in an emergency. Let a sheet fly for a minute, yes, of course. But if I wanted to dump a kite I cannot see what is wrong with releasing the stopper first . Just letting things fly willy nilly suggests panic. That is the start of failure.

Sailing alone and crew is not a worry. Undoing 5 stopper knots (halyard, sheets and guys to dump the kite for a quick turn back ...... more time than I would like while one crew member is overboard, one is totally focused on maintaining visual contact and the helmsman is trying to turn back pdq. One crew overboard = two crew unavailable!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I am quite surprised by the discussion over stopper knots on sheets etc especially on a spinnaker, ever since I sailed on a boat with a spinnaker which must have been over 50 years ago I was always taught and have maintained the practice of never having a stopper knot in a sheet.
It would be interesting to know who does, type of sailing and age.

 

[boomerangben]

Stopper knots on all lines that that might get lost except anything to do with a spinnaker.

A single locking turn (if that is a half hitch applied over the cleat horn on the last loop) except where it might need releasing in a hurry where a single 360 after the last figure of 8. The only cleats I use are for mooring and anchoring.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I was taught not to put stopper knots in spinnaker sheets/guys, I suppose one could think about a slipped figure of eight that can be released quickly, but I think I will stick to no stopper knots on these.

 

[Capt Popeye]

The Lightermans Hitch is not in our Standard Operating Procedures and thus not used.

Well thats a great pity then ; might ask who or what draws up the Operating Procedures that you abide by ?

Clearly not used to operating on the River Thames then ?

Just hope that the Operating Procdures are not RYA influenced , are they ?

 

[oldgit]

I am not convinced that any of the above have diminished the safety or seaman like integrity of the boat. I do accept that not knowing how to do them if required would be inappropriate. Any views?

Depends on the planned trip, anything local and its probably just quick check of weather or tides and a glance at the bits that make the boat go and stop.
Anywhere outside my comfort zone could still be Dragons.
Still a bit paranoid and this is with 2 independant bolted down chartplotters with recentish charts plus an Ipad with latest Navionics
On longer more extended scary trips an old laptop ready to go with a passage plan on Seaclear, keeps last years paper charts with pencil tracks company.
2 x fixed radios and 1 hand portable and still awake the night before wondering whats the weather going to get up to this time !
Course it all becomes enjoyable and no stress what ever in the last 5 mins of the trip as you miraculously arrive at you destination unharmed and do not hit anything while mooring ?
It does bring some things into perspective when the boat next door is sporting a vast Stars and Stripes and has just come across the Atlantic.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Many of the methods of operation that were mandated either by law or operating procedures in Royal or Merchant Navy ships have passed down to small lesuire craft as best practice for seaman like operations.

Despite being schooled the traditional way and understanding that some people take satisfaction in the traditional ways I find that I have dropped many activities that I do not judge to add value e.g.

Use of paper charts ( have them onboard as back up)
Hourly fixes
Keeping a ships log. Legal requirement
Passage planning using chart and tide tables
Always hoisting the ensign dawn to dusk in UK waters - mainly because the damm thing flapps around my head with a stern wind
Calibrating the compass

I am not convinced that any of the above have diminished the safety or seaman like integrity of the boat. I do accept that not knowing how to do them if required would be inappropriate. Any views?

Paper charts No longer mandatory for Commercial vessels provided there are two systems with independent power supplies as I recall.

Keeping a log is a legal requirement.
Making a passage plan is a legal requirement.
Having an ensign on your boat is a legal requirement in many places in the world (and if you want to annoy the local authorities, port police, immigration officials etc and thus find yourself having an unnecessary hard time, try forgetting to put up the courtesy ensign!)
Not having a calibrated steering compass on board is plain foolish. I agree that you can check it with the hand bearing compass, but surely that’s just a matter of course and habit that you check it every now and again and keep a note of any errors?

Taking the ensign in at night was an attempt at a cost saving measure to reduce wear on the ensigns and cynics might add it was introduced by the Royal Navy as a way of keeping sailors busy!

 

[Capt Popeye]

Well reading through all the posts ,I am puzzled , if a crew member goes overboard , surely the best appropriate action is to 'heave to' up wind , so as not to increase the distance beween Craft and MOB ? concerning oneselves with taking in sails etc is secondary plus incidental to any rescue /recovery attempt ?

Might say though that I have never been in such a position , so can only comment as it appears in these posts

 

[Capt Popeye]

Paper charts No longer mandatory for Commercial vessels provided there are two systems with independent power supplies as I recall.

Keeping a log is a legal requirement.
Making a passage plan is a legal requirement.
Having an ensign on your boat is a legal requirement in many places in the world (and if you want to annoy the local authorities, port police, immigration officials etc and thus find yourself having an unnecessary hard time, try forgetting to put up the courtesy ensign!)
Not having a calibrated steering compass on board is plain foolish. I agree that you can check it with the hand bearing compass, but surely that’s just a matter of course and habit that you check it every now and again and keep a note of any errors?

Taking the ensign in at night was an attempt at a cost saving measure to reduce wear on the ensigns and cynics might add it was introduced by the Royal Navy as a way of keeping sailors busy!

Well more than puzzled , by the ref to paper charts

Surely if not carrying paper charts how is one able to respond to anything thats outside of ones own charted passage plans ? Like a Pan Pan or even an SOS then ?

 

[john_morris_uk]

PS. Locking turns on cleats are unnecessary 99% of the time. They’re sometimes useful in dinghies and small craft but any medium or moderate sized yacht has no need of the locking turn on a cleat. OXO or OXXO is just as secure and MUCH easier to undo. The argument that modern lines slip is actually a good argument AGAINST using a locking turn. As the line slips, it jambs itself on the cleat. If you really and truly are worried that a line might slip, use OXXO. In 60 years of sailing I’ve learned that OXO is usually quite good enough and OXXO is invariably good enough. The only time I use a locking turn is on my spinnaker pole uphaul. It’s a relatively small line that goes on a cleat on the mast.
PPS I assume that when people refer to a Lightermans Hitch, they’re referring to what I usually call a Tugboat Hitch?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well more than puzzled , by the ref to paper charts

Surely if not carrying paper charts how is one able to respond to anything thats outside of ones own charted passage plans ? Like a Pan Pan or even an SOS then ?

What I meant was that commercial vessels have two independent electronic charting systems. The areas they cover are updated regularly, and I hope that answers your question?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well reading through all the posts ,I am puzzled , if a crew member goes overboard , surely the best appropriate action is to 'heave to' up wind , so as not to increase the distance beween Craft and MOB ? concerning oneselves with taking in sails etc is secondary plus incidental to any rescue /recovery attempt ?

Might say though that I have never been in such a position , so can only comment as it appears in these posts

How are you going to heave to with the Spinnaker up? The spinnaker will collapse back into the mast (assuming you’re not overpowered as you round up and produce a massive broach) lines will go everywhere and there will be tangles galore. The quickest and easiest way is to just let all the Spinnaker lines go. None of them will have stoppers on them if you’ve any seamanship in you at all, the Spinnaker disappears over the bow and you can then round the boat up very quickly. After all someone’s life is worth far more than the Spinnaker.

 

[dunedin]

PS. Locking turns on cleats are unnecessary 99% of the time. They’re useful i’m dinghies and small craft but any medium or moderate sized yacht has no need of the locking turn on a cleat. OXO or OXXO is just as secure and MUCH easier to undo. The argument that modern lines slip is actually a good argument AGAINST using a locking turn. As the line slips, it jambs itself on the cleat. If you really and truly are worried that a line might slip, use OXXO. In 60 years of sailing I’ve learned that OXO is usually quite good enough and OXXO is invariably good enough. The only time I use a locking turn is on my spinnaker pole uphaul. It’s a relatively small line that goes on a cleat on the mast.
PPS I assume that when people refer to a Lightermans Hitch, they’re referring to what I usually call a Tugboat Hitch?

But people setting rigid rules for others is generally a bad idea.
Lots of Scandinavian boats have lovely stainless steel mooring cleats with smooth rounded edges. Combined with modern ropes they do slip slightly. I will ALWAYS use a locking turn on my mooring ropes, especially when leaving the boat unattended. Having witnessed the boats, even in a very sheltered marina, in a full and sustained F10/F11 the working of the ropes is quite amazing.
On the key ropes, which also have snubbers, we add a thin rope “whipping” round the rope on the cleat to add two belts to the braces.
I appreciate that I am just a mere youth on this forum, but in 50 years, and nearly 20 years of wintering afloat in Scotland (including multiple F10+ over the years), I have NEVER had the slightest difficulty undoing a mooring rope with a locking turn, let alone one seizing. Not sure what others are doing wrong IF they have seized a modern rope (as opposed to natural fibres), but suspect more myth than reality.
And I would MUCH rather have a mooring rope seize on (easily fixed by a knife if happens once every 75 years) than slip and let the boat be damaged or lost. Over the years what I have had to do is to reattach other boats ropes which have slipped in storms without locking turns. (And have retied on countless fenders left in a clove hitch which rarely lasts a proper storm)

So each to their own - by to my mind locking turns are best for our cleats and our ropes, and the risk of jamming is a myth.