Dropping or keeping old traditions

[dunedin]

Although Admiralty Chart Corrections were published every week how often did sailors correct their charts, I didn't and surprisingly I never hit a bit of hard stuff that had changed position.

No but the “danger” of out of date paper charts was used by UKHO as their excuse for withdrawing Small Chart Folios of paper charts, without mentioning the lack of speed of updating of electronic equivalents.

 

[Boathook]

Although Admiralty Chart Corrections were published every week how often did sailors correct their charts, I didn't and surprisingly I never hit a bit of hard stuff that had changed position.

I use old charts and the land hasn't moved that I've noticed on these. The buoys move around a bit, especially around the Shingles but always seem in the correct general location. I once tried updating charts but it was a pain and the next updates put some of the charts back to before the first update.
The charts aren't used much nowadays as the plotter is normally used. Where charts are very useful is passage planning and being able to see a big area compared with a 9" chart plotter.

 

[Dutch01527]

I'd like to see anyone who hasn't got a track drawn on a chart and regular positions noted in a log (hourly? HOURLY???!!!) cope easily with a plotter failure mid Thames estuary.
Particularly someone who habitually 'navigates' in this extrordianary manner and is thus well out of practice in doing things properly...

So that would apply to every professional commercial ship who “navigates” those waters and does not have a track drawn on a paper chart? They like aeroplanes and warships navigate electronically I believe. Seaman like behaviour is using the best tools for a job.

 

[FWB]

Paper charts are nice to look at just OS Maps are.

However you can’t actually “Navigate” using them.

You can put your position on them but first you need to know your position.

The most accurate way to get your position these days is by gps. So then you can put that on your chart. A ChartPlotter or smartphone or tablet will do this for you and instantly show if you are on or off course.

The UKHO are to discontinue production of paper charts and it makes sense.

I shouldn’t be surprised if OS go the same way. My iPhone has all of the OS maps loaded at various scales and several brands of marine charts. All this in my pocket and repeated on my tablets.

Yes I shall keep my Admiralty folio charts just as I shall keep the many OS maps but I won’t be using them to actually navigate.

 

[SaltyC]

If I wanted I could update my paper (real) charts weekly, as previously mentioned not worth it as a number of corrections at the moment are temporary for windfarms. But passes the winter days updating all for free.
In the meantime, my chartplotter hasn't been updated for 15 years due to the cost of 'new' cards - maybe not needed if I'd I spend X thousands on new Internet/ WiFi enabled kit. So I (& suspect many others sail with out of date of date information.)
I appreciate, electronics can be updated - at cost, and the millennials'renting / leasing everything but once again costs go up. HMSO once again thinking all people with boats are Millionaires.

Ready about, change of tack.
In the last year(ish) HMSO have made leisure folios print on demand. I plead ignorance on the next statement, however using old fashioned logic, chart distributors have invested heavily in A1 printers for a 3 year life!!
IF the electronic information is updated weekly so always up to date, as claimed to justify withdrawal, surely if correctly configured the folios printed would be the latest and up to date, give chart distributors revenue to pay for capital investment no costs to HMSO, luddites and others for those with minimal electrical power could still get folio charts .
Just a thought, tin hat firmly in place.

 

[Sandy]

Paper charts are nice to look at just OS Maps are.

However you can’t actually “Navigate” using them.

I beg to differ.

 

[Sandy]

In the last year(ish) HMSO have made leisure folios print on demand. I plead ignorance on the next statement, however using old fashioned logic, chart distributors have invested heavily in A1 printers for a 3 year life!!
IF the electronic information is updated weekly so always upto date, as claimed to justify withdrawal, surely if correctly configured the folios printed would be the latest and up to date, give chart distributors revenue to pay for capital investment no costs to HMSO, luddites and others for those with minimal electrical power could still get folio charts .
Just a thought, tin hat firmly in place.

You may find that a Chart Agent has had a printer for years and years. the appalling decision by UKHO to stop printing Leisure Folio charts and get the Chart Agents to print them is a recent move.

At least we have other companies producing charts, NV Charts and Imray come to mind.

 

[johnalison]

I think that people are confusing navigation with pilotage. Navigation by plotter is certainly easier and potentially more accurate than by chart, but I would guess that most sailing is done within sight of land or marks, when a chart, perhaps in a waterproof jacket, can be just as easy, if not more so, with everything on a lager scale and no need to fiddle with knobs just to move around.

 

[FWB]

I beg to differ.

Of course, that’s what forums are about.
Using paper charts is Dead Reckoning rather than accurate navigation. Plot where the gps says you are then aim for the next bit and hope that you’re not far off. I remember back in the early 80’s going for the first time from Poole to Dartmouth. I had twin compasses, log, depth and a Seafix rdf set. From Portland I set a course and hoped it worked out. When I picked up Berry Head beacon it was a relief to know that it was pretty much where I expected it to be. Nowadays the route is laid out for me on the chart plotter.
To my shame I can’t remember the name of the famous yachtsman who on crossing the channel say, always aimed to the right so that he knew to turn left when seeing the coast.
Times have changed. Thank goodness that my flying days had INS then GPS rather than sextant shots. The 747 still has the hole in the flight deck roof for the sextant…now used for smoke evacuation. Well not used now since they’ve mostly been scrapped…a beautiful thing to fly though.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Of course, that’s what forums are about.
Using paper charts is Dead Reckoning rather than accurate navigation. Plot where the gps says you are then aim for the next bit and hope that you’re not far off. I remember back in the early 80’s going for the first time from Poole to Dartmouth. I had twin compasses, log, depth and a Seafix rdf set. From Portland I set a course and hoped it worked out. When I picked up Berry Head beacon it was a relief to know that it was pretty much where I expected it to be. Nowadays the route is laid out for me on the chart plotter.
To my shame I can’t remember the name of the famous yachtsman who on crossing the channel say, always aimed to the right so that he knew to turn left when seeing the coast.
Times have changed. Thank goodness that my flying days had INS then GPS rather than sextant shots. The 747 still has the hole in the flight deck roof for the sextant…now used for smoke evacuation. Well not used now since they’ve mostly been scrapped…a beautiful thing to fly though.

Not one famous yachtsman. I thought everyone did that once upon a time.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Not one famous yachtsman. I thought everyone did that once upon a time.

Unless you’re referring to Sir Francis Chichester who flew intentionally to miss an island and then took a sextant sight to check how far he’d gone to turn left or right as appropriate.

 

[FWB]

Unless you’re referring to Sir Francis Chichester who flew intentionally to miss an island and then took a sextant sight to check his far he’d gone to turn left or right as appropriate.

Ah could be John. I was a virgin bigger than a dinghy sailor in those days and thought it to be a good idea ?

 

[Kukri]

I have a different fad.

A lot of people seem to set off on a coastal passage and allow things below deck to become less and less tidy as the passage goes on, arriving with a hurrah’s nest below deck.

I prefer to keep everything in order and will heave-to for a tidy up. Mentally if I’m “at sea” I’m “at sea”.

 

[laika]

Paper charts are nice to look at just OS Maps are.

However you can’t actually “Navigate” using them.

What exactly is your definition of "navigation"? Mine includes working out what I've got to steer to get from A to B. I'm aware that software exists which will do this and if I both owned such software and, from experience, had grown to trust it, I would happily use it rather than laboriously calculate a CTS for a long passage but for now I make do with tide tables, almanacs, and a chart to plot on. How come commercial craft don't really care about this? Because it's not such a big deal when your vessel is capable of 10x the speed of tidal current.

Personally I don’t give a fig for “tradition”. I came to sailing late in life and really can’t be doing with nonsense about whose club is “senior” to whose and fussing with burgees: Not my culture, not my “tradition”. But I do care about the practical and suggest that for the time being at least there remains practical benefit in using non-electronic navigation techniques in addition to electronic ones

 

[Sandy]

Of course, that’s what forums are about.
Using paper charts is Dead Reckoning rather than accurate navigation. Plot where the gps says you are then aim for the next bit and hope that you’re not far off. I remember back in the early 80’s going for the first time from Poole to Dartmouth. I had twin compasses, log, depth and a Seafix rdf set. From Portland I set a course and hoped it worked out. When I picked up Berry Head beacon it was a relief to know that it was pretty much where I expected it to be. Nowadays the route is laid out for me on the chart plotter.
To my shame I can’t remember the name of the famous yachtsman who on crossing the channel say, always aimed to the right so that he knew to turn left when seeing the coast.
Times have changed. Thank goodness that my flying days had INS then GPS rather than sextant shots. The 747 still has the hole in the flight deck roof for the sextant…now used for smoke evacuation. Well not used now since they’ve mostly been scrapped…a beautiful thing to fly though.

I enjoy plotting a good EP and it has been said I have a good 'natural feel' for where I am, but that strays into a totally different topic of natural navigation. I suspect it is more down to the ability to absorb a map/chart at a subliminal level and somehow mentally work out where I am using DR/EP (one reason I prefer to use paper rather than electronic charts). Perhaps I use other natural clues, e.g. the stars when night sailing - polaris is between those shrouds - that sort of thing, that others don't or have their head stuck in their chart plotters. I do have a chart plotter onboard, but its primary usage is to collect tracks and display instrumentation.

I have told the story before of spending some time with a chap to check out his navigation skills before going on a selection course on the Brecon Beacons to join an outfit based at Hereford. He could never understand how I could stop him at any point and and ask him where he was, I'd be given a vague position, then point where I thought we were and ask him to prove where we were on the map. My position and his cals usually matched. After two days he was getting the hang of it.

p.s. I am rubbish in towns/cities.

 

[rotrax]

I beg to differ.

Why?

Paper charts are only one part of a navigation equasion.

In bad visibility, not able to take a 'fix' from known points, you are back to guessing an EP from your COG, SOG and leeway/tidal/wind influence.

I just look at my Raymarine E120 screen. It shows where I am pretty accurately, night or day, rain or fog. I find that tremendously reassuring.

If that goes tits up, because we keep a passage log I know where we were an hour ago, I know the course we were steering and the speed we were travelling at.

That EP can be transfered to the paper chart.

The chart gives us information we need and allows me to mark a position on it, from fixes or an EP.

It does not help me navigate, it just does the above.

Unlike the E120 Plotter.

 

[tillergirl]

I guess it depends on location. A major navigation hazard in busy waters I would hope within weeks. A new small bouy in a non hazardous location in a remote location within months. I have no idea how long updates take to roll out in reality but would be interested to learn.

I have been trying to understand their policies. One maker was a year out of date on one format. Another took 'sort of' 3 months to complete a change. I say 'sort of' because some drying heights were done more quickly but it took 3 months to update the drying contours. And yes it was critical area. It is quite difficult to monitor their performance as electronic charts are not clones of the Admiralty charts so it would be unfair to criticise yet. I find myself a little surprised by the confidence that people have with electronic charts. This because I have looked in detail in an area I know well. So for example there are two identical buoys close by when there is only one. There was a report by a local authority that there was 'less water'. It so happened I had just completed an annual survey and there had been absolutely no change. But when I looked at one electronic chart it was wrong and you could see that a user of such a chart would certainly have said 'less water'! There also had been 4 major errors in a square nautical miles: one buoy missing, two in the wrong place and soundings wrong (those have been corrected having been advised by a user). The point is, how much confidence should I have when I go to an area that I don't know?

Your comment is helpful I think. I have been monitoring a defined area for over 10 years now. The vast majority of UKHO Notices do not affect leisure craft but trends can be interesting. But every now and again ...... ! And of course such notices are difficult to predict. Local authority notices do tend to be more likely to affect leisure users - things gone awry temporarily, local works to avoid, new warnings etc. Local authority notice systems have improved very significantly in the past ten years but there is no regional collaboration system. If you had a sixty mile passage up the south-east coast, there are up to 19 local authorities notices to check on.

 

[Frank Holden]

I'm wondering what form the Scottish white ensign would take. Presumably the saltire occupying a quarter of the field and placed in the canton but what of the other 3/4? Totally white? Having a red cross would be an anathema to many.

Australia's navy replaced the Cross of St George with a kangaroo many years ago. Maybe the Scots' Navy (aka Clan Line???) could replace it with a haggis??

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Although Admiralty Chart Corrections were published every week how often did sailors correct their charts, I didn't and surprisingly I never hit a bit of hard stuff that had changed position.

I correct my charts, but I do that yearly. I have a set for the West Coast of Scotland, Firth of Clyde and Irish Sea. Not sure if you are inferring that rocks don't change position, or that you don't hit rocks that do change position, however, many rocks actually do change position, some in deep water, some in shallower water that would certainly be a threat to yachts / small boats. A lot of the data cones from marine surveys for fish farms and some for offshore wind farms. Another source is leisure sailors who must be reporting sonar data from their modern systems as the source is stated. The other change is lights, a lot of lights have changed over the years, many removed, ranges shortened and cables. Lots of cables laid over the years - but they are not really an issue to us.

Are the changes critical and likely to represent a realistic threat to my sailing, not really, many are in areas that I don't sail in, but some could be.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I correct my charts, but I do that yearly. I have a set for the West Coast of Scotland, Firth of Clyde and Irish Sea. Not sure if you are inferring that rocks don't change position, or that you don't hit rocks that do change position, however, many rocks actually do change position, some in deep water, some in shallower water that would certainly be a threat to yachts / small boats. A lot of the data cones from marine surveys for fish farms and some for offshore wind farms. Another source is leisure sailors who must be reporting sonar data from their modern systems as the source is stated. The other change is lights, a lot of lights have changed over the years, many removed, ranges shortened and cables. Lots of cables laid over the years - but they are not really an issue to us.

Are the changes critical and likely to represent a realistic threat to my sailing, not really, many are in areas that I don't sail in, but some could be.

It’s just not something to take chances with. We also do our paper updates on dark winter evenings, but do take more than cursory notice of NMs in areas we intend to sail. Our Garmin system has community input too, it’s networked with our sounder, so we too supply some of that as we travel. Cables ate only an issue if you’re thinking of anchoring for any reason of course. It’d be a bit of a bugger to do an emergency anchoring and find yourself fouled or worse.