Driving Licence for a boat - What's wrong with that ?

[Elessar]

.......unless it is for motor boaters who some of them certainly need educating

what are you moaning about he wasn't even close.
This is close....

(and I think your comment was tongue in cheek but seriously don't turn this into another mobo rant, it affects everyone equally)

 

[srm]

That can be explained by all the OAP hit and run collisions.

.

Be careful what you wish for Jonjo, one day you will realise that you are over 60 or 65 or whatever age the government decides by then will qualify you as an "OAP git", but hopefully will feel that you are still young enough to continue boating.

Personally, I have seen far more bad or inconsiderate boat handling by people well under 60 and some superb boat handling by people you would be happy to clasify as an "OAP git" if you saw them walking down the pier.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Hi Elessar,
One of the reasons I feel so strongly on occassions against mobos relates directly to your photo 'this is close'.

I was 'putt putting' across Lyme Bay some 3 seasons ago going West at some 5 knots, no wind, blue skies.
I was down below fixing a snack and my wife was in the cockpit. She happened to mention that a boat was behind us some 5 miles off as far as we could make out. We paid no more attention to it until it was about 5 lengths off us doing the sort of speed as suggested by your photo.
It passed us at no greater distance than you see in the photo and it was a boat of similar type and size..
The wash came into our cockpit and through our companionway soaking the nav' desk. The lunch being prepared was thrown across the galley.
My wife was momentarily terrified in the cockpit, but thankfully more shaken than stirred.
I gathered myself from the sole of the saloon and got up into the cockpit to see the offending boat, speeding off into the distance.
There was not a soul to be seen on the bridge or anywhere on the boat.
I tried to contact the boat by vhf but the name was not readable with the spray and it was by this time in the distance. I got no reply. I did not contact the coastguard but on reflection I should have done.
I can only assume that the 'driver' was 'downstairs' doing as 'Jason' suggests in another blog relating to RKJ, .....'getting a life'??
My wife was in her 'infancy' as a sailor and was nearly put off by the experience.

This could be one reason why powerboaters/mobo drivers should have a licence which they could lose for misbehaviour.??

 

[Fire99]

I can understand the theory in principal and I do have a bit of a bugbear about a number of Jetski/Bike owners who clearly have no idea about the water other than it's wet.

However, the minute the Government gets involved in licensing etc then agenda's beyond safety get involved and it becomes yet another revenue generator, not to mention another opportunity for a paranoid Government to put restrictions on these boaty types who want to go places without telling people first!!

To be fair IMO the answer is to use the current regulations more efficiently and have more river policing going on in areas where there are lots of boats/ribs/'ski's etc all fighting for the same water space.

Outside of that i'm not too keen on restricting people and making boating less 'free'

 

[Refueler]

......... There might perhaps be a case for compulsory third party insurance, and a requirement to stop, exchange details, etc, but that is a different question.

It may not be legally compulsory to have 3rd party insurnace in UK - but you cannot have a mooring, berth or other where boat is without requirement by appropriate company / authority that you do have 3rd party cover. Reason they do not check your docs - is that then if anything happens, they are liable as having sighted and validated your docs. It is understood that you have them. Harbour Byelaws, Marina Contracts, Visitors berths, Club Moorings etc. all require at least 3rd party cover ....

If you don't believe me - think you'd betterv check to make sure ... you may be surprised !

 

[Refueler]

I can understand the theory in principal and I do have a bit of a bugbear about a number of Jetski/Bike owners who clearly have no idea about the water other than it's wet.

However, the minute the Government gets involved in licensing etc then agenda's beyond safety get involved and it becomes yet another revenue generator, not to mention another opportunity for a paranoid Government to put restrictions on these boaty types who want to go places without telling people first!!

To be fair IMO the answer is to use the current regulations more efficiently and have more river policing going on in areas where there are lots of boats/ribs/'ski's etc all fighting for the same water space.

Outside of that i'm not too keen on restricting people and making boating less 'free'

This is one of the biggest problems to police the existing rules effectively. No good adding to them if existing are not applied. If anyone does the digging ... it may be that there are more rules by territorial governance than first imagined, not only harbour ones.

 

[oldharry]

2 Points:

Rant 1:
As an about-to-be OAP, I most strongly object to the suggestion that in 2 months time I will no longer be able to handle a boat without bumping in to things. Just because one particular marina has an overload of stoopid gits (NOT just old ones) who think its OK to hit other boats without reporting, does NOT mean anyone over the age of 65 is senile and incapable. Nor does it mean that younger age groups cause fewer accidents.

Rant 2:
Every single one of us was once upon a time a novice sailor. Some of us did the courses. We still made mistakes. Others never did a course, but the Sea taught us to respect it anyway.

One thing I will guarantee - we ALL made mistakes. Thats how we learned. Mistakes that would make us cringe with shame if we did them now - and seem to make some of us furious when the next generation coming onto the water do the same.


Rant over.

 

[ninky]

out of interest, those who are against any sort of competency testing for boats, what do you think about the private pilot licence? is it right that people who want to fly leisure aircraft have to pass a competency test and why?

 

[ninky]

Every single one of us was once upon a time a novice sailor. Some of us did the courses. We still made mistakes. Others never did a course, but the Sea taught us to respect it anyway.

One thing I will guarantee - we ALL made mistakes. Thats how we learned. Mistakes that would make us cringe with shame if we did them now - and seem to make some of us furious when the next generation coming onto the water do the same.


Rant over.

some of us still are very much novice. and at the risk of sounding sexist i think us females can sometimes feel even more nervous of being on the receiving end of harsh judgment at our ineptitude. sometimes i'd quite like to raise a pennant that means 'i'm a beginner doing my best'.

 

[jenku]

I don't know for sure, but I was told that the test for a MOBO in Sweden was for the applicants to sit in a dinghy while the tester or instructor motored past them at speed with a large wake to give a taste of being on the receiving end.

HAHAHA! I wish that were true. Unfortunately it isn't.

The compulsory licensing scheme discussed here disappeared effectively since we got a new government. It may come back next year though when there is a new election...

 

[jenku]

out of interest, those who are against any sort of competency testing for boats, what do you think about the private pilot licence? is it right that people who want to fly leisure aircraft have to pass a competency test and why?

I'm opposed to air traffic being legal at all. People can learn to swim, but not to fly.

Getting my coat. ;-)

 

[Tranona]

I recently spoke at length to a leading insurer (who will remain anonymous to protect confidentiality). He had recently done an analysis of their loss statistics over many years and found that the rate of total loss (usually offshore) increased sharply amongst older skippers. As a result his organisation imposed many more restrictions in terms of cover/number of crew etc where the skipper was over 65. I didn't ask about marina collisions, which are a different matter, as is the question of licensing.

That is interesting and I expect quite easy to explain. There has been massive growth (relatively) in the number of older people venturing offshore because they have time/money and boats are relatively easier to use in this way. So it is not surprising that claims are higher from this group - but doubt it would be relatively higher than if skippers were younger.

In other words, the risk is going offshore, not being old.

Have a look at the entry list for the ARC. Over 60's is probably biggest category of skippers and rare to find one in 30's or even 40's.

Interesting when I took my Morgan off the road last winter for the first time and asked for a reduction in premium. Underwriter said claims for damage in use for Morgans with mature owner/drivers are almost nil. Most claims were for theft and damage while static. Explains why my premium is £230 (value £25k) with unlimited mileage, provided it is kept in a secure garage.

 

[Refueler]

That is interesting and I expect quite easy to explain. There has been massive growth (relatively) in the number of older people venturing offshore because they have time/money and boats are relatively easier to use in this way. So it is not surprising that claims are higher from this group - but doubt it would be relatively higher than if skippers were younger........

I'm HLR (Honary Local Rep.) in West latvia for Cruising Assoc. I get to meet a lot of cruising couples etc. who are enjoying offshore, extended cruising.
Very few are below retirement age, and most that are have taken early retirement.
So I would agree that the balance of young v older offshore is definitely in older camp.

It is nice though that near all of these older peeps boat quietly, come in, moor up, do their thing without fuss. Get some of the younger crewed boats coming in and Oh Dear !!

 

[pragmatist]

We feel that learning by example and practice, cautiously, can be more useful than formal training. The RYA courses don't seem to be designed for the average couple or family - their "how to moor" techniques leave a great deal to be desired and the assumption is always that you have a crew of fit adults waiting to leap off with warps. The reality for most couples, let alone those with children or animals, is that they boat with one or one and half people ready and able to "do things". Those of us who have boated for many years have doubtless learned from boating with others, from reading endless PBO and YMs plus books, watching others, trying and getting it wrong - and trying again. Legislation would only add to the cost and, IMHO, add nothing to safety or to the enjoyment of others.

Isn't the issue mainly about courtesy and consideration for others. Some of my best friends are mobos - and they are very polite and some are extremely good at boat handling. Almost all of them are well over the age of 65. The people who cause others irritation, damage or worse are generally, IMHO, those who haven't thought or don't care - and that includes those with sails and without.

And if anyone on this forum can say they've never got something wrong then all I can say is they're not trying. I believe it was Des Sleightholme who said the first 3 years with a new boat was a constant stream of mistakes ...

 

[2Tizwoz]

Which is the more accident prone? At what age does the driving licence become neccesary?

 

[oldsaltoz]

No offence taken. It stands to reason that the ignorant think it's easier to "drive" something with a steering wheel.

I don't think the problem is big, and I certainly don't think compulsory testing will fix it. It may even make things worse, by taking away some personal responsibility.

I think it would be the thin end of a slippery wedge that would ruin boating by adding more and more regulation.

Here in Oz the system seems to work pretty well. If you drive a boat with an engine of more than 4 Hp you need to have a licence. So all but the smallest and slowest are required to have a licence.

The licence test is a few basic questions on survival, collision avoidance, markers and some signals, followed by a short driving test in the examiners boat with him/her on board, this takes less than 20 minutes. All boat licences are for life and paperless, it's a virtual licence with no ongoing or annual fees.

The objective is to ensure all boat operators have an understanding of the craft and rules that apply.

If at some stage you want to move into larger, faster and more powerful boats you may have to sit another exam, again this ensures the operator understands the limitations and again no ongoing or annual fees.

Seems to work well, particularly with larger pleasure boats, it's the PWC, rib and small dinghies that seem to have most problems.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[rallyveteran]

That is interesting and I expect quite easy to explain. There has been massive growth (relatively) in the number of older people venturing offshore because they have time/money and boats are relatively easier to use in this way. So it is not surprising that claims are higher from this group - but doubt it would be relatively higher than if skippers were younger.

In other words, the risk is going offshore, not being old.

No, my contact knows the age of people paying premiums and the cruising areas they had cover in, so he knows how many are going offshore. He was shocked at the higher rate of loss among those over 65.

 

[DavenHelen]

No, my contact knows the age of people paying premiums and the cruising areas they had cover in, so he knows how many are going offshore. He was shocked at the higher rate of loss among those over 65.

Over 65 = has the time to go offshore?

Plus if the risk were really higher then premiums would reflect it...

 

[Elessar]

Hi Elessar,
One of the reasons I feel so strongly on occassions against mobos relates directly to your photo 'this is close'.

I was 'putt putting' across Lyme Bay some 3 seasons ago going West at some 5 knots, no wind, blue skies.
I was down below fixing a snack and my wife was in the cockpit. She happened to mention that a boat was behind us some 5 miles off as far as we could make out. We paid no more attention to it until it was about 5 lengths off us doing the sort of speed as suggested by your photo.
It passed us at no greater distance than you see in the photo and it was a boat of similar type and size..
The wash came into our cockpit and through our companionway soaking the nav' desk. The lunch being prepared was thrown across the galley.
My wife was momentarily terrified in the cockpit, but thankfully more shaken than stirred.
I gathered myself from the sole of the saloon and got up into the cockpit to see the offending boat, speeding off into the distance.
There was not a soul to be seen on the bridge or anywhere on the boat.
I tried to contact the boat by vhf but the name was not readable with the spray and it was by this time in the distance. I got no reply. I did not contact the coastguard but on reflection I should have done.
I can only assume that the 'driver' was 'downstairs' doing as 'Jason' suggests in another blog relating to RKJ, .....'getting a life'??
My wife was in her 'infancy' as a sailor and was nearly put off by the experience.

This could be one reason why powerboaters/mobo drivers should have a licence which they could lose for misbehaviour.??

I hope you realise my shot was a set up and that I really don't behave like that. That's me on the mobo and another forumite on the yacht. I'd nicked one of his crew by sneaking off quickly after they all sat on my comfy deck whilst tied together for lunch at anchor.

You describe a totally unacceptable scenario that no good boater can condone.
I'm not sure licensing would get rid of idiots though, however they choose to power their boats.
The situation as you describe it was so reckless I suspect it would be criminal if he had hit/unjured anyone, that didn't seem to put him off.

 

[rallyveteran]

Over 65 = has the time to go offshore?

Plus if the risk were really higher then premiums would reflect it...

If the risk of total loss is much higher even increasing the premiums by a multiple isn't going to be enough for the insurer. They were choosing to take steps to reduce the risk by imposing other conditions (e.g. number of crew on ocean passages).

I haven't actually seen the data, but this organisation has a lot of it and had done a thorough analysis.