Driving Licence for a boat - What's wrong with that ?

[Chris_Robb]

I should mention that I work in the industry and see many newcomers to the sport.

With regard to new powerboaters particularly ( no offence ) I would estimate that as many as 50% have now idea of colregs, ability to read a chart , understand tides or how to moor a boat. To be fair, most are more interested in fishing than boating . As a result, many frighten friends and families, not to mention other boaters and very often pack up after a short time.

All because, they are led to believe that it is not important enough to have some form of education.

I agree with you re new boaters above, and every time I come accros them I curse them, and wonder why they cannot be bothered to take any interest in learning. HOWEVER, I do not want to see any more goverment interference here than we have already. So please no licences.

I do believe that the Insurance Industry should regulate this by refusing insurance to anyone without the basic vulantary qualifications, and for larger powerboats, a more comprehensive test. But these things are driven by commercials - the claims levels on this type of owner must be so low, that the Insurers do not regard this as a valid resaon for turning down business - especially if some insurers are not worried about it.

Shame really, I would have thought the industry would benefit (of course the RYA would!) by fewer claims, but they must be insignificant - therefore is there really a problem that needs fixing?

 

[Refueler]

Basic certificate ? Good idea but impractical by way of people will then assume they know enough.
Insurance discount for higher certificates ? Don't believe it, I don't know of any real discounts now for them and Ins. will only use them as excuse to KEEP premiums at high levels.
Basic instruction when buying boat ? Now that is a better suggestion and would find a lot of support in boating community. If a dealer was to demo and give basic pointers to use, possibly odd discounts for courses ? You don't have to go to RYA - there are Adult Education and Education facilities that offer basic courses as well ... but RYA would I reckon welcome and help with it ... would certainly up their ratings in many eyes !

I live and boat in baltic's where compulsory licences are law ... believe me we have nothing like the number of boats UK has - but we have more incidents than I ever saw in UK in all the years ! When was the last time you heard of a 35ft Powerboat running straight over the top of a guy fishing in a dinghy ? That was on the Lielupe River. Mobo skipper / owner pleaded that he never saw the dinghy. guy in dinghy was killed, in fact shredded by the prop as the Mobo went over him at estimated 25kts ..... Mobo guy had licence. One incident - but to me says it all.

 

[JasonClark]

Well said! And to the poster who suggests that over 60's are senile or similar I'll spit in your eye when me arthritis allows!

The whole idea of boat driving licences makes me really, really, angry

So, allow an over 60 old fart to pose a question or two about a proposed boat driving licence.

How do you think any sane person could arrange the details of the test when:

Person A drives a NB on the Shroppie (he really needs to know MOB and Colregs and how to read a chart doesn't he!)
Person B drives a 40ft mobo on the Upper Thames
Person C has a 12ft sailing dinghy on Windemere (I hope he's completed a CG66)
Person D has a cuddy dory he trails to both the Broads and the local Harbours for a bit of fishing.
Person E has a speed boat he uses at Clacton on fine days
Person F has an inflatable he takes wherever on holiday with a caravan.

Get the picture?

We are all different in age, ability, type of craft, waters "sailed" (I use that term loosely). The comparison witrh cars is total bollox, cars ARE basically similar, 4 wheels, seat belts, instruments, steering and controls although performance varies and insurance companies control by price the use of fast cars for young drivers.

Only a complete fool could possibly want a universal driving licence for boat skippers, or this government I suppose (which amounts to the same thing). Not only would you have as many categories as types of boat, types of water and type/age of skipper but you're advocating the legislation of control of the last great freedom apart from thought and breathing. The idea is insane and unworkable so for God's sake don't suggest it or this Government might even try it.

What would be needed is basic (and relevant to craft sold and water used) boat handling skills taught at point of sale (not "sail", note) and in the case of private sales you couldn't even legislate for THAT! Having said that, who will be qualified to instruct on 250 different boats on 20 different water situations to 20,000 different people?

The only solution is to scrap and burn every private boat, ban the whole thing about private boat ownership so no-one sails at all and leave it to the professionals like Stena, Sealink, P & O etc - is THAT what you want? Make it illegal to skipper anything apart from a pedelo on the local boating lake? Hang on a mo, you can drown in a few inches of water, better ban those as well.

NO and again NO! Things are not perfect, peeps still set off in unsuitable craft in unsuitable weather on unsuitable waters, still drive like they are on the M25, have little or no personal safety gear, and hazard their own lives and those of others. So What? If you feel that the waters are full of dangerous boaters don't set off yourself!

What we SHOULD all do (and I hope we all do), is kindly and patiently offer advice and assistance from our own experience to help educate those heading into danger through ignorance, keep a weather eye out for them until they too become experienced and can assist others just starting. In other words, insteads of just whinging about their lack of skills on the water make some positive moves to share knowledge and experience.

And if they don't want it - at least you have offered!

Rant over and I'll sit back and let temper cool now!

I Agree with Him ^^^^

I'm new here and i am also new to sailing I have had some experience on a canal boat and thats about it. so i have turned my hand to having a go at sailing, Since i put my thread up declaring this I have been inundated with offers from kind members here with vast experience of sailing to have a day out with them and also offers of when i get my boat where i want it they will happily have a day with me showing me how to handle it, I have the forthought to take every single one of them up on there kind offer because i'm not stupid enough to just "think" i know what i'm doing and i realise i need as much experience as i can get as i havent a clue how to sail yet and everything i'll be learning will be from the kind members from here as unfortunatly i dont have a single friend who sails. I agree some people dont have the common sense in place to realise this, i fortunatly do !

I will be going on windermere to start with and will be sailing there for a few yrs and in the meantime i will do my RYA dayskipper course when i can afford it ready for when i have my boat moved to the sea. Thats the plan.

 

[Tranona]

Would those be the same RNLI statistics (not sure why you put the word in quotes ... are you implying that there is something dodgy about RNLI stats?) that show causes of lifeboat services last year included;

QUOTE]

I put the word in quotes deliberately for the reasons you then go on to explain. They only report incidents in their own categories, and rely on the person in charge of the incident to determine the category. All incidents within that category are then considered equal. There is no independent check on whether these reports are real or what meaning they have.

This is not the same as MAIB reports which are as independent as it is possible to be and the investigations are conducted in a way that uncovers all the factors that influence the outcomes. Rarely in these reports does basic competence of the sort being discussed here come up as an issue. These are, of course reports of extreme cases where deaths occur or would have but for some intervention.

What is missing is any believeable account of the circumstances surrounding serious incidents that might have lead to more serious outcomes. For example the RNLI claim that they "saved" typically over 300 lives each year. They need to have "statistics" like this because it provides material for television programmes and helps fiund raising.

Imagine what could be learned from a thorough analysis of these incidents.

The RNLI do a great job and they support training, but do not support licensing. This may, of course be because they do not want to offend their supporters, but the line has been pretty consistent over the years.

 

[snowleopard]

How to educate without compulsion?

I believe the most important items you need to know about boating before starting can be written on one side of A4. The rest can come later. For example on colregs-

1. Drive on the right.
2. Give way to a boat coming from your right
3. Keep clear when overtaking.

Would be enough to prevent the daily occurrences of small (and sometimes not so small) mobos who drive as if they're in a car and scream abuse when you try to pass port to port.

The question is - how to (a) get beginners to read it and (b) make them realise they need more knowledge for more challenging circumstances?

 

[DaiB]

Look out OAP driving

Well that silly logic brings into question the notion of a minimum age for driving a car or age of consent.

In 5 years I have suffered two in-harbour thumps both from other craft driven by retirement aged crew. This year I have witnessed two unnecessary heavy marina collisions both involving old helmsmen.

It seems as people age their internal gyros become less sensitive and spacial awareness decreases. Despite the personal boat repair cost and a growing personal conviction on this subject I have not felt compelled to rush onto the forum before and suggest mandatory OAP boat driving tests, however since the subject has been raised I had an peculiar urge to defend MoBo drivers and point the finger where it needs to be pointed.

Just to warn everyone, I am off sailing on Monday and without an OAP endorsement to my license. So as a warning to all around, as I have a reduced internal gyro capacity and my spacial awareness has gone to pot, I will leave all my fenders out, put Dire Straits on full blast (bit deaf as I'm over 60) and fly a massive flag with 60+ on it! Have to be big as over 60 your eyesight is shot also!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bon Voyage
PS must remember the zimmer frame!!!!!!!!!

 

[jonjo]

I have never seen any raised premiums for the over 60's.

That can be explained by all the OAP hit and run collisions.

Of the 4 events I mentioned earlier.

Bump 1: My boat, I waited 16 hours for the 70 something yacht owner to visit me and apologise for leaving 3ft streak down my topsides. Following day I visited his boat.

Bump 2: My boat, was on board at the time. Insurance details were volunteered.

Bump 3: Observed MAB hit two boats. Owner of first vessel runs back down the pontoon to inspect for damage. OAP git driving the MAB proceeds to pick up crew while completely ignoring the owner hanging over the guard rails looking for damage. OAP motors off 5 minutes later without a word to boat 1.

Bump 4: OAP driver of a long keel 44 footer hits an x-boat in Cowes Yacht Haven 3 times while trying to reverse out of berth against an unusually strong spring tide current. Last seen heading out so sea (I suppose he might have contacted the marina by VHF or phone).

 

[KristiferColumbus]

It has always seemed logical ( to me) that if you buy a boat ,you should have the basic skills and knowledge how to use it and how interact with others safely.

In view of the number of boats around these days , surely a compulsory licence is now necessary. Many other countries think so too.

Why is this such a bad thing ?

The worst feature in my very personal view is that newcomers to the sport feel that it is obviously not important enough to need education therefore I won't bother.

We also have cases where you can pass RYA so called exams, with very little actual experience of sailing and hold a subconscious thought you are capable of doing things you really should not be doing.

Surely no freedom comes without responsibilty so why the
fear ?

I would be very interested to here people's views.

We have driving licenses for cars & lorry's & that dos'nt cancel out plain stupidity.We still have no shortage of accidents so please no more bureaucracy.......unless it is for motor boaters who some of them certainly need educating

 

[nct1]

Whenever I tell people they can buy my boat and sail it round the coast with no training at all they are always very suprised.

I did take training before venturing out, and am horrified of the notion that people sail without any knowledge. Though I will freely admit that there is no substitute for experience.

In terms of training and certification does no good argument, taking cars as the easiest example, would we really want anyone to jump into a car without any training and start driving ? There is a clear difference between UK driving and countries that have little or no training requirement. And there are enough speeding posts on this forum to indicate that a license that can be taken away is a deterrant. No system will make people saints, but overall a competancy based system will weed out the worst offenders.

The no evidence argument also does not stack up, take the number of posts and news story's here of people whose ignorance get's them into trouble.

Sadly, insurance is more about getting premiums in than coverage, so the name of the game is to pile in exclusion clauses, and lump everyone together so that the overall premiums are kept compeditive, so we are in effect paying for the incompetance of others.

However, the main reason not to have a license system is that it will clearly be used as a taxation cash cow as cars have become, and we know we cannot trust the treasury of whatever persuation to tax until the pips squeek once we have a license. Also until there is an electronic cabin spy in every boat, it will be very costly to police.

The numbers of people killed or injured is relatively small, so we are not a massive drain on resources, and in many cases the resuce is paid for by charitable donation.

I would urge any potential new sailors who read this post, training is necessary and whilst not mandatory, should be considered a "must do", the reasons for it not being mandatory are mainly down to the cost of policing.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I don't know for sure, but I was told that the test for a MOBO in Sweden was for the applicants to sit in a dinghy while the tester or instructor motored past them at speed with a large wake to give a taste of being on the receiving end.

 

[ianat182]

licence for a boat etc..

Some years ago I used to take out customers on the yachts they thought they might buy for a demonstration sail. Frequently the customer was a former powerboat owner,dinghy sailor or complete novice purchasing a yacht of between£40000 and £120000 and with no idea other than it would be nice to spend a weekend on. Anyway much of this was found out by careful questions and the answers given. I then started from basics like steering the boat under power,turning the yacht under power; reversing around a pair of buoys under power,and coming alongside a vacant pontoon under power.The initial surprise that the yacht could be handled in a straightforward manner,gave much confidenece when the sails were and raised and another 'sense' was given to the person steering the boat (kind of 'seat of the pants' sailing) as the boat accelerated,tacking and gybing,and heaving -to situations i must say that this was my way of demonstrating a yacht to sell. Quite often I was asked to spend a couple of weekends giving further informal training to the buyers , but always with the strong suggestion that they do Dayskipper course theory, and practical,and on their own boat if possible. I have made many friends of these former novices and several have gone on to full Yachtmaster qualifications. I should add here that I am not an RYA instructor and the help was requested by the customer.
The demonstration time was between 2 and 2 1/2 hrs and the first 3/4 hour was the basic handling under power. Such a basic start as this could easily be made part of the purchase and could from the vendors' point of view secure the sale.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

I don't know for sure, but I was told that the test for a MOBO in Sweden was for the applicants to sit in a dinghy while the tester or instructor motored past them at speed with a large wake to give a taste of being on the receiving end.

Brilliant idea,should be compulsory

 

[David_Jersey]

I beleive that any problem is industry led, and therefore any solution should be addressed via them.

I would propose that anyone commercially selling boats (new or as Brokers)should be legally obliged to provide training to any customers (and their crew) who desire it - for however long that the customer considers it neccessary (thereby removing the teach to the test incentive)

The commercial seller will of course have to undergo compulsory training, refreshed every 6 months, on how to instruct new boat owners. And bearing in mind that Britain is now a multicultural society the training offered (by both commercial boat vendors and those simply offering training) must be in at least 3 languages, including Urdu. To do otherwise in the 21st century would simply be racist - and I think none of us want any Racist vendors / training personnel to slip through the net.

In addition, those is the industry should contribute towards community based boat training courses (free at the point of delivery) to cater for those who buy privately / existing boat owners - something like 15% of turnover plus 25% of their working week acting as the training personnel sounds fair. Hey, it's safety related - can't stint on that.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Some years ago I used to take out customers on the yachts they thought they might buy for a demonstration sail. Frequently the customer was a former powerboat owner,dinghy sailor or complete novice purchasing a yacht of between£40000 and £120000 and with no idea other than it would be nice to spend a weekend on. Anyway much of this was found out by careful questions and the answers given. I then started from basics like steering the boat under power,turning the yacht under power; reversing around a pair of buoys under power,and coming alongside a vacant pontoon under power.The initial surprise that the yacht could be handled in a straightforward manner,gave much confidenece when the sails were and raised and another 'sense' was given to the person steering the boat (kind of 'seat of the pants' sailing) as the boat accelerated,tacking and gybing,and heaving -to situations i must say that this was my way of demonstrating a yacht to sell. Quite often I was asked to spend a couple of weekends giving further informal training to the buyers , but always with the strong suggestion that they do Dayskipper course theory, and practical,and on their own boat if possible. I have made many friends of these former novices and several have gone on to full Yachtmaster qualifications. I should add here that I am not an RYA instructor and the help was requested by the customer.
The demonstration time was between 2 and 2 1/2 hrs and the first 3/4 hour was the basic handling under power. Such a basic start as this could easily be made part of the purchase and could from the vendors' point of view secure the sale.

Sounds good to me though I think there is no substitute to working up from a rowing boat/sailing dinghy.I'm shure your kindness increased your sales

 

[KristiferColumbus]

I beleive that any problem is industry led, and therefore any solution should be addressed via them.

I would propose that anyone commercially selling boats (new or as Brokers)should be legally obliged to provide training to any customers (and their crew) who desire it - for however long that the customer considers it neccessary (thereby removing the teach to the test incentive)

The commercial seller will of course have to undergo compulsory training, refreshed every 6 months, on how to instruct new boat owners. And bearing in mind that Britain is now a multicultural society the training offered (by both commercial boat vendors and those simply offering training) must be in at least 3 languages, including Urdu. To do otherwise in the 21st century would simply be racist - and I think none of us want any Racist vendors / training personnel to slip through the net.

In addition, those is the industry should contribute towards community based boat training courses (free at the point of delivery) to cater for those who buy privately / existing boat owners - something like 15% of turnover plus 25% of their working week acting as the training personnel sounds fair. Hey, it's safety related - can't stint on that.

Well said that pirate.

 

[Refueler]

Some years ago I used to take out customers on the yachts they thought they might buy for a demonstration sail. Frequently the customer was a former powerboat owner,dinghy sailor or complete novice purchasing a yacht of between£40000 and £120000 and with no idea other than it would be nice to spend a weekend on. Anyway much of this was found out by careful questions and the answers given. I then started from basics like steering the boat under power,turning the yacht under power; reversing around a pair of buoys under power,and coming alongside a vacant pontoon under power.The initial surprise that the yacht could be handled in a straightforward manner,gave much confidenece when the sails were and raised and another 'sense' was given to the person steering the boat (kind of 'seat of the pants' sailing) as the boat accelerated,tacking and gybing,and heaving -to situations i must say that this was my way of demonstrating a yacht to sell. Quite often I was asked to spend a couple of weekends giving further informal training to the buyers , but always with the strong suggestion that they do Dayskipper course theory, and practical,and on their own boat if possible. I have made many friends of these former novices and several have gone on to full Yachtmaster qualifications. I should add here that I am not an RYA instructor and the help was requested by the customer.
The demonstration time was between 2 and 2 1/2 hrs and the first 3/4 hour was the basic handling under power. Such a basic start as this could easily be made part of the purchase and could from the vendors' point of view secure the sale.

Very commendable.

Trouble is the other side of the coin. I know a well known Dealer selling high powered Mobo's. You can turn up with suitable tow vehicle, pay your money, hitch on and drive away with not even a hint of the boat getting wet or any instruction at all. Dealer relies on makers Owners handbook to instruct new owner how to start engine etc. They do not recc'd any courses or RYA certificates, they are glad not to have to spend time on water wasting time when they could be selling another boat to another punter.

 

[Tranona]

That can be explained by all the OAP hit and run collisions.

QUOTE]

Not sure whether you are trying to say that the collisions resulted from incompetent boat handling because of age of helmsman. Or All Old people try to avoid their responsibilities because they are old (and frightened of being banned?). Or some people are just rude.

On the roads where drivers are much more representative of all age groups, I see incompetence from all age groups but the accidents and claim statistics clearly identify differences by age. It is different in yachting because the participating population is not representative, is small in size, basically "safe" and therefore difficult to identify categories more prone to accident.

Your personal observations, while interesting are not necessarily repesentative and therefore do not form a basis for generalised statements.

 

[rallyveteran]

I recently spoke at length to a leading insurer (who will remain anonymous to protect confidentiality). He had recently done an analysis of their loss statistics over many years and found that the rate of total loss (usually offshore) increased sharply amongst older skippers. As a result his organisation imposed many more restrictions in terms of cover/number of crew etc where the skipper was over 65. I didn't ask about marina collisions, which are a different matter, as is the question of licensing.

 

[Cliveshep]

Rallyveteran - name that outfit so most of us can avoid talking to them!

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

The analogy with driving is a false one.
Cars are potentially dangerous weapons if they get out of control and can easily kill dozens of innocent people. So it is reasonable to demand a certain level of competence before letting anyone drive one.
Small boats are pretty safe in comparison, and certainly safer than say doing DIY at home.

The less serious problem of the cost of minor and major bumps is what insurance is for. Premium levels are presumably already set to reflect the risk factors. There might perhaps be a case for compulsory third party insurance, and a requirement to stop, exchange details, etc, but that is a different question.

Hi, in relation to cars, you suggest small boats are not so dangerous I think? Too many lives are lost involving incidents with tenders each year. I wonder what the %age of people who use tenders to cars is and what the %age risk involved for cars related to boats is?

Many incidents involving structural damage to sailing yachts and serious injury or death to crew happen each year? Are there any statistics available from insurers that tell us with what type of boats the damage occurs and what experience the crew has that are involved in these incidents?