Dragging anchor

[Chris_Robb]

Once again we must disagree. In my experience the Spade is far superior in weed. The Rocna doesn't compare. Have you used a Spade in the seagrass we have here in the Caribbean? It may be local thing to the Caribbean but the Spade never fails to deliver and has never dragged in weed, once set. We often power set at full revs in reverse.

I had a Manson Supreme, which I found very good, but not much good on thick weed. If you got it to set without dragging at all you could get a good set, however I think the substructure of the weed base is very weak.

I found that if it ever dragged, it choked itself with weed, thus preventing it totally from resetting. You had to start again from scratch.

If still sailing, I would by an anchor without a role bar as this what I think causes it the choke in weed. But it would not be a plow type as in strong winds anchored stern too, I have seen these migrate on a steady progress across the bottom, where as the Manson, but itself in out of sight

 

[Neeves]

If still sailing, I would by an anchor without a role bar as this what I think causes it the choke in weed. But it would not be a plow type as in strong winds anchored stern too, I have seen these migrate on a steady progress across the bottom, where as the Manson, but itself in out of sight

Much depends what you would mean by a 'plough' type.

Kobra gets good reports

Most concave anchors, Mantus, Rocna, Supreme, Viking have roll bar. Epsilon is possibly something of a hybrid, and offers a roll bar as an option - check earlier posts. Excel is convex, has no roll bar. Spade and Vulcan are non roll bar and concave (and no-one complains or comments on Spade clogging).

I've used an Excel for well over a decade and I can confirm - its does not clog

Any anchor can clog this is a Delta or Delta copy

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

No bottle of wine.
The winds here have been light by Caribbean Trade wind standards. Only in the teens. Squalls topically give 5 to 10kts wind increase when a squall cloud come through. You get a change in wind direction of up to 90 degrees.
The squall that caused the two boats to drag was only 25kts. So about 10kts above the normal wind. The French charter boat sorted itself out as they were all onboard. The absent owners only had us. There was no other boats here as its end of the season.
I suspect the boat we reacued simply hadn't power set the anchor. We couldn't get the anchor to set but some of that may have been our inability to free drop the anchor. We couldnt find a handle to release the windlass.
It's hard to pay out chain in 25kts when the anchor chain is deploying so slowly. You have no idea when the anchor has hit the bottom like you do when you free drop the anchor. It is possible we were dragging the Rocna through the thick seagrass and picking up grass such that the anchor wouldn't set.
I ask the owner about free dropping and he said he never did it. No wonder I couldn't find a handle.
I think most anchor dragging episodes are down to poor practise, even by owners that have had the same boat and anchor gear for a number of years.
The charterers often give a masterclass in how not to anchor but you expect liveaboard boaters to have cracked the anchoring by now. The owner has been in the Caribbean for 8 years.

What’s with the fixation on free dropping the anchor? We invariably pay the chain out in a controlled manner. I manoeuvre the boat under engine to ensure that the anchor and chain is laid out on the seabed before gradually applying power in astern to dig the anchor in.

Letting lots of chain go in a rush that might end up in a heap on top of the anchor is fraught with things that might go wrong imho.

 

[geem]

It doesn't work like that. The chain goes out under gravity until it hits the bottom. You can control the speed of the free drop with the friction in the brake.
Once the anchor hits the bottom chain comes out slowly. It is controlled by the speed the boat goes back. It doesn't keep piling out. The friction from the chain up the hawse pipe, over the gypsy and the bow roller is sufficient to ensure the chain is pulled out at a gentle pace once the anchor hits the bottom.
The main benefit is the anchor is not dragged along the bottom when the pace of the chain drop is too slow to counter the reversing boat. No dragging off the anchor through seagrass means no fouling of the anchor. It's particularly beneficial in a strong breeze when the boat may move quickly.
It's the way we always drop the anchor. It's reliable and consistent

 

[vyv_cox]

It doesn't work like that. The chain goes out under gravity until it hits the bottom. You can control the speed of the free drop with the friction in the brake.
Once the anchor hits the bottom chain comes out slowly. It is controlled by the speed the boat goes back. It doesn't keep piling out. The friction from the chain up the hawse pipe, over the gypsy and the bow roller is sufficient to ensure the chain is pulled out at a gentle pace once the anchor hits the bottom.
The main benefit is the anchor is not dragged along the bottom when the pace of the chain drop is too slow to counter the reversing boat. No dragging off the anchor through seagrass means no fouling of the anchor. It's particularly beneficial in a strong breeze when the boat may move quickly.
It's the wat we always drop the anchor. It's reliable and consistent

We never anchor free-fall, Jill cannot manage the clutch well enough. Our Maxwell is fast both up and down, fastest tested by YM. So long as reversing under engine, or sail if windy, is not too fast the windlass lays the chain out just right.

 

[john_morris_uk]

We never anchor free-fall, Jill cannot manage the clutch well enough. Our Maxwell is fast both up and down, fastest tested by YM. So long as reversing under engine, or sail if windy, is not too fast the windlass lays the chain out just right.

Exactly. Control the chain and the way the boat falls back.

In any depth of water the friction of the hawse pipe in our boat is not enough to stop the chain continuing to rattle out and potentially pile up on the anchor.

If it works for Geem, good luck to him but it wouldn’t be a seamanlike way of anchoring on many of the boats I sail. Certainly not on our own boat.

 

[geem]

Exactly. Control the chain and the way the boat falls back.

In any depth of water the friction of the hawse pipe in our boat is not enough to stop the chain continuing to rattle out and potentially pile up on the anchor.

If it works for Geem, good luck to him but it wouldn’t be a seamanlike way of anchoring on many of the boats I sail. Certainly not on our own boat.

It more e question of inadequate gear. The clutch on ours is designed to allow free dropping under total control. It has a hand wheel for accurate clutch control. We can operate the rope drum separately to the chain gypsy as well. This windlass is operated by my wife. You don't need to be an expert. The benefits of free dropping in 30kts of wind and a crowded anchorage are not to be taken lightly. Its a bit like being a bomb aimer. We can drop the anchor inch perfect and pay out the chain knowing we won't foul the anchor with our own chain. The anchor ends up on the bottom about 10 times faster than the fastest powered windlass and exactly where we want it

 

[Kelpie]

We did used to try to carefully pay the chain out, but I have come round towards Geem's way of thinking. Dump it as fast as possible and then let the wind take the boat back to straighten it out. Gives the anchor zero chance to drag along on a short scope, picking up debris.

We only have a manual windlass though, so our technique will be a bit different to most. In calm conditions and shallow anchorage I ignore the windlass and just pay out by hand. It lets me know exactly when the anchor has got the bottom.
In stronger winds and depths over 10m I have to use the clutch to release the chain, but it's not my preferred method.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It more e question of inadequate gear. The clutch on ours is designed to allow free dropping under total control. It has a hand wheel for accurate clutch control. We can operate the rope drum separately to the chain gypsy as well. This windlass is operated by my wife. You don't need to be an expert. The benefits of free dropping in 30kts of wind and a crowded anchorage are not to be taken lightly. Its a bit like being a bomb aimer. We can drop the anchor inch perfect and pay out the chain knowing we won't foul the anchor with our own chain. The anchor ends up on the bottom about 10 times faster than the fastest powered windlass and exactly where we want it

As I said, good luck to you with your technique but I’m not sure about the implied criticism of our anchor gear. It’s not as if it’s an unusual arrangement. Our Lofrans X1 gypsy can be allowed to run free but it would take some nifty work with the clutch to slow it as soon as the anchor hit the bottom. Why go to that stress?

It takes a few seconds for the anchor to reach the bottom in our normal anchoring depths of between 5 and 10 metres. It would take extremely bad conditions for me not to be able to hold the boat on station while the anchor drops.

 

[geem]

As I said, good luck to you with your technique but I’m not sure about the implied criticism of our anchor gear. It’s not as if it’s an unusual arrangement. Our Lofrans X2 gypsy can be allowed to run free but it would take some nifty work with the clutch to slow it as soon as the anchor hit the bottom. Why go to that stress?

It takes a few seconds for the anchor to reach the bottom in our normal anchoring depths of between 5 and 10 metres. It would take extremely bad conditions for me not to be able to hold the boat on station while the anchor drops.

Haha, stress is none existent with a free drop. Quite the opposite of your experience. You said your clutch arrangement meant that it was not possible. On my windlass its totally possible and designed to do just that with ease and finesse. It can also power down but free dropping works for us and many others. It's faster, more accurate as you don't have an issue holding the boat on station because the anchor hits the bottom in about 2 seconds. The boat pays out its own chain without dragging the anchor. What's not to like?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Haha, stress is none existent with a free drop. Quite the opposite of your experience. You said your clutch arrangement meant that it was not possible. On my windlass its totally possible and designed to do just that with ease and finesse. It can also power down but free dropping works for us and many others. It's faster, more accurate as you don't have an issue holding the boat on station because the anchor hits the bottom in about 2 seconds. The boat pays out its own chain without dragging the anchor. What's not to like?

You’re missing the point. Your technique might be stress free on your boat with your anchor and chain and windless, but it wouldn’t be stress free on our boat or on many other boats.

I don’t think I’d be teaching your technique to many students either as it requires specific characteristics of the windless anchor and chain arrangements.

As I keep saying, good luck to you in using it if it works for you but it would be a bit hit and miss on our boat. I prefer reliability.

 

[geem]

You’re missing the point. Your technique might be stress free on your boat with your anchor and chain and windless, but it wouldn’t be stress free on our boat or on many other boats.

I don’t think I’d be teaching your technique to many students either as it requires specific characteristics of the windless anchor and chain arrangements.

As I keep saying, good luck to you in using it if it works for you but it would be a bit hit and miss on our boat. I prefer reliability.

Chain is chain. What's different about mine. The windlass doesn't know what anchor is on the end. It's all about familiarity. We have anchored many hundreds of times. We have shown others how to do it and it is now their preferred way of dropping the anchor. They do it with all kinds of windlasses.
It's easier if you are single handed as well. You can run to the front of the boat and simply let the anchor go. You can control the speed of the chain once the anchor hits bottom using the clutch. It's really not that hard.
It's a very seamanlike way of using your gear, especially in strong winds where boat control becomes more difficult. Try it, You might like it.
Get the wife to steer and you have a go.

 

[geem]

We never anchor free-fall, Jill cannot manage the clutch well enough. Our Maxwell is fast both up and down, fastest tested by YM. So long as reversing under engine, or sail if windy, is not too fast the windlass lays the chain out just right.

The power up and down off my windlass is 60ft/min. It's not really the issue for us. It's just so easy to free drop. It's how we have done it for years. For us it contributes to easy anchoring and a reliable set.
We are currently anchored off a small island and hill. The wind is blowing around both sides of the hill at about 25kts. The boat is being pushed around a little by the wind coming from opposing directions. It is conditions like this where free dropping for us offers benefits. The boat may be hard to hold on station when being hit by strong gusts from the side. Not an issue when we free drop. The anchor is on the bottom so quickly. It reduces the risk of us dragging the anchor through the thick seagrass that covers the bottom here.

 

[Boathook]

In gale force conditions we do an anchor watch if there are other boats anchored up wind of us. We did this a couple of years ago in the Helford River when we ran from the summer storm that hit the Isles of Scilly. Gusting 45kts all night. An anchor alarm won't tell you if a dragging boat is bearing down on you.
I am not against the tech. I have an alarm app on my phone I just don't use it. I do occasionally leave the navionics running on the ipad so I can see our swing pattern. This would alert me if we are dragging but we do not routinely set an alarm. Our wind turbine is our alert that the wind is howling and we aught to get up and have a look. This has notified us to a couple of dragging boat this season that have passed close to us in squalls

If this was up by Frenchmans creek during the day I have to plead guilty ! I was using a lighter anchor as the windlass had packed up. After dragging and going back to my original anchor position, reverted to my rocna that kepted me in correct position.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Chain is chain. What's different about mine. The windlass doesn't know what anchor is on the end. It's all about familiarity. We have anchored many hundreds of times. We have shown others how to do it and it is now their preferred way of dropping the anchor. They do it with all kinds of windlasses.
It's easier if you are single handed as well. You can run to the front of the boat and simply let the anchor go. You can control the speed of the chain once the anchor hits bottom using the clutch. It's really not that hard.
It's a very seamanlike way of using your gear, especially in strong winds where boat control becomes more difficult. Try it, You might like it.
Get the wife to steer and you have a go.

1. You yourself admit that the friction of hawsepipe and bow roller etc on YOUR boat helps limit the payout of your chain. On our boat (and many others that I’ve sailed the chain runs so freely that there’s a real risk of the chain piling up on the anchor and fouling it if the clutch allows free fall as the chain doesn’t slow down particularly when the anchor hits the bottom. Good for you that your windless clutch with its wheel adjustment is so sensitive. It’s not the same on all boats.

2. We have a remote control for our windless. I can anchor single handed in a controlled way from the helm using the remote. The remote even has a digital read out that tells me how much chain I’ve deployed.

3. I have tried the chain at the rush method. I appreciate it works well for you and its sometimes worked for me in the past but powering the chain down is nice and controlled and I’m happy with it.

Seamanlike is not necessarily sticking rigidly to one way of doing things. I restowed the windless clutch handle for our X2 only a few minutes ago. Letting go in a rush is a trick up my sleeve I’m happy to have but in the normal course of anchoring I’m sticking to a controlled drop. It’s GUARANTEED not to foul the anchor with chain in a heap on top in our setup.

 

[geem]

1. You yourself admit that the friction of hawsepipe and bow roller etc on YOUR boat helps limit the payout of your chain. On our boat (and many others that I’ve sailed the chain runs so freely that there’s a real risk of the chain piling up on the anchor and fouling it if the clutch allows free fall as the chain doesn’t slow down particularly when the anchor hits the bottom. Good for you that your windless clutch with its wheel adjustment is so sensitive. It’s not the same on all boats.

2. We have a remote control for our windless. I can anchor single handed in a controlled way from the helm using the remote. The remote even has a digital read out that tells me how much chain I’ve deployed.

3. I have tried the chain at the rush method. I appreciate it works well for you and its sometimes worked for me in the past but powering the chain down is nice and controlled and I’m happy with it.

Seamanlike is not necessarily sticking rigidly to one way of doing things. I restowed the windless clutch handle for our X2 only a few minutes ago. Letting go in a rush is a trick up my sleeve I’m happy to have but in the normal course of anchoring I’m sticking to a controlled drop. It’s GUARANTEED not to foul the anchor with chain in a heap on top in our setup.

Great, I am glad it works for you. Shame your windlass won't allow you the pleasure of free dropping under control. Its guarantees us drag free dropping and no chain piled on top of the anchor. It's very simple to not pile chain on top by simply keeping the boat moving.
Back in the days of manual windlasses, it was the only way to drop the chain. You didn't have a power down option. All the way back in time it was how it was done. Its a skill we learnt 25 years ago and although we can power our chain down faster than most, we still see the benefit of free dropping and will continue to do it.
I particularly enjoy dropping anchor under sail. No power needed. Its another nice skill to learn should you ever have a major power failure. All good seamanship skills

 

[Zing]

Dropping the anchor is a technique one should know. If you are med mooring with an anchor and if you have a cross wind then dropping it on the clutch is probably the only way to do it. You will almost certainly not have enough time to drop the chain and get enough speed in reverse to maintain control unless you do drop it. Apart from this manoeuvre I never drop the anchor as the motor is very easy for any crew member to do, nice and peaceful, fast enough and doesn’t require any management or skill with the clutch.

 

[Neeves]

Vyv and I have the same windlass, as Vyv says - its fast. From memory 2m/second. This is much faster than Geem's 60'/minute (I've done the maths in my head) - that's 1m/3secs - that's much slower than power dropping by Vyv and us.

If 2m/sec seems fast it is - too fast to sometimes see the depth marks on the chain.

The only time when accuracy is an issue is when anchoring in thick weed but with sand patches - then you need to get the anchor in the sand.

We power down - that way the slippage on the clutch remains constant and needs no alteration.

We don't have a chain counter, amount of chain deployed, but by counting 'seconds' we have a good idea of how much we have deployed - which in the dark and rain means we can deploy from the comfort of the cockpit.

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

Vyv and I have the same windlass, as Vyv says - its fast. From memory 2m/second. This is much faster than Geem's 60'/minute (I've done the maths in my head) - that's 1m/3secs - that's much slower than power dropping by Vyv and us.

If 2m/sec seems fast it is - too fast to sometimes see the depth marks on the chain.

The only time when accuracy is an issue is when anchoring in thick weed but with sand patches - then you need to get the anchor in the sand.

We power down - that way the slippage on the clutch remains constant and needs no alteration.

We don't have a chain counter, amount of chain deployed, but by counting 'seconds' we have a good idea of how much we have deployed - which in the dark and rain means we can deploy from the comfort of the cockpit.

Jonathan

I agree. I don’t know how fast our windless powers the chain down but I know it’s fast enough that we’ve missed the chain markers more than once. We don’t usually use the remote control with its chain counter as it’s easier/very convenient to use the foot buttons on the deck. Chain is marked at ten metre intervals and if I’ve asked for thirty metres (three tags) then the first we know is when four tags appear and it’s apparent that Mrs M has let 40 metres out. Cue foot on the up button to retrieve ten metres of chain…

 

[john_morris_uk]

Dropping the anchor is a technique one should know. If you are med mooring with an anchor and if you have a cross wind then dropping it on the clutch is probably the only way to do it. You will almost certainly not have enough time to drop the chain and get enough speed in reverse to maintain control unless you do drop it. Apart from this manoeuvre I never drop the anchor as the motor is very easy for any crew member to do, nice and peaceful, fast enough and doesn’t require any management or skill with the clutch.

For once we are in complete agreement.