vyv_cox
Well-known member
I downloaded an app some years ago but only used it a few times. I also prefer to ensure the anchor is well set.
Dragging anchor
- Thread starter geem
- Start date
noelex
Well-known member
On sailing forums there is sometimes the implication that using an anchor alarm is a sign of inexperience, lack of anchoring practice. I am not suggesting Geem that you are implying this, nevertheless I think sometimes this impression exists and unfortunately it can put people off using technology that costs no money (most boats already have the equipment in place) uses very little power, but acts as an extra crew member that constantly keeps watch on your position without drinking any of your single malt.I have never felt the need to set an alarm. My emphasis is on setting the anchor properly with the engine in reverse at high revs. We live at anchor. We have been at anchor since October last year when we returned to the boat from 3 months in the UK. We will be anchoring for the whole summer and won't be in a marina until we are in the Azores in June 2024. We are not nieve. We set the anchor. We often snorkel so will check the anchor is buried. If its set it won't drag. If you feel the need to use an alarm everytime you anchor then maybe you need a better anchor, better setting technique or both
We watch the forecasts and anchor accordingly.
We see terrible anchoring practises often followed by dragging anchors. Get your setup right and sleep soundly, until the wind turbine goes ballistic
Edit: the boat we rescued from hitting the reef had an anchor alarm going off the whole time we were rescuing the boat. It didn't help them seeing as they weren't onboard.
.Like you, we live at anchor. We have been cruising full time for the last 17 years. This year was typical. We went back into the water in April of last year in Scotland after applying new antifouling and have been at anchor every night since, apart from crossing the Atlantic and other days when passage making. We have now spent a total of over five thousand nights at anchor In many different countries.
Despite, or perhaps more correctly, because of this experience, we always use an anchor alarm. Experience teaches you that even the best anchoring gear deployed in the most careful manner is not 100% reliable.
So use an anchor alarm or not, but I hope I have dispelled the myth that it is a device only used by those that do not know how to anchor.
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Trident
Well-known member
The poster above did note that he thought a transmitting anchor alarm when ashore - so you get a text etc was good. Whilst confidence in your anchoring can play fears this seems like a great idea for everyone no matter how experienced. You will not know ashore if your boat is being stolen - the alarm will tell you. You will not know if some idiot has crossed your rode with theirs and pulled up your anchor - the alarm will tell you.
I tend to use an alarm when on board for the first night in a new place to keep my wife happy. It works to soothe her nerves (despite thousands of nights at anchor and having never dragged an inch ) so worth every penny (though it was actually free!)
I tend to use an alarm when on board for the first night in a new place to keep my wife happy. It works to soothe her nerves (despite thousands of nights at anchor and having never dragged an inch ) so worth every penny (though it was actually free!)
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
Your anchoring experience demonstrates 100% reliability as you have never dragged an inch, over thousands of nights.
Theft and another boat fouling your rode will not be prevented by an anchor alarm.
Your logic for an anchor alarm is unconvincing. Your facts demonstrate that an alarm is not needed.
It would be cool if you shared tips for secure anchoring, as that is more relevant. The alarm is planning for failure, clearly you plan for success.
From a probability perspective your boat won’t get stolen, and your rode won’t get fouled.
Kelpie
Well-known member
Depends on where you sail!
Supertramp
Well-known member
Planning for success is right.
But it's brave and perhaps foolhardy to assume knowledge of the bottom and currents in a new anchorage.
I routinely use my AIS on anchor watch especially in new anchorages. Very simple and clear. I often anchor in relatively exposed places with the risk of anchor resetting due to tide or wind change. Necessary? No, but a big aid to getting a good night's sleep.
When I change from my CQR I will consider giving it up....
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
If fouling of a rode by other boats (the point I was replying to) is probable, an anchor alarm is not going to reduce that probability.
Kelpie
Well-known member
In the context of an alarm that will alert you when you're off these boat, then I see the utility.
Btw I rarely set an alarm. But sometimes I will, if I think it's necessary. I have absolutely no problem with others choosing to use an alarm every single time.
Generally I find that if conditions have changed, I will sense that and wake up. The boat usually tells you, with a new motion or new noise. But why leave it to chance? The technology is there to set an alarm.
geem
Well-known member
I have no issue with anybody setting an alarm. I just don't do it. It won't stop me being hit by a dragging boat. With a powerful engine we set the anchor more aggressively than most. If its set after full revs. Its well and truly set. I sleep well.
To get things into perspective, we can engine at full throttle in to 25kts of wind and 2 metre seas at 7 kts. We have huge power froma 4.4 litre engine. If we power set the anchor it either pulls the anchor out or digs it a grave.
To get things into perspective, we can engine at full throttle in to 25kts of wind and 2 metre seas at 7 kts. We have huge power froma 4.4 litre engine. If we power set the anchor it either pulls the anchor out or digs it a grave.
SimonKNZ
Active member
I always use an alarm. One reason for this is an incident about two years ago when after thoroughly setting my anchor, about 30 hours later the anchor totally let go and wouldn't reset after the wind shifted suddenly through 180. But I've also replaced the delta anchor with an Excel since then and have never dragged since.
To me, it's just another layer of protection that costs a few dollars per year (for the data used when remote alarm is enabled) and gives me a little extra peace of mind.
This sinking happened a few km from me last time I was out sailing, you can see the owner's remarks in the forum. Sinking near Rakino
I haven't had the nerve to ask him whether he had an alarm running, seems odd that he went from "securely at anchor" to smashed up on the rocks a few hundred metres away with no intervention possible.
To me, it's just another layer of protection that costs a few dollars per year (for the data used when remote alarm is enabled) and gives me a little extra peace of mind.
This sinking happened a few km from me last time I was out sailing, you can see the owner's remarks in the forum. Sinking near Rakino
I haven't had the nerve to ask him whether he had an alarm running, seems odd that he went from "securely at anchor" to smashed up on the rocks a few hundred metres away with no intervention possible.
Neeves
Well-known member
Doubts have been expressed over the Rocna dragging at all as owners here find their Rocna totally reliable.
Geem mentioned that a squall came through and it was the squall that resulted in the anchor dragging (though equally the anchor might have simply been poorly set). But Geem does mention that when his wife retrieved the anchor it was full of weed.
Now - as the anchor was dragged over the weedy seabed it might have collected weed on its travels.
The tests I conducted were designed to simulate one example of where a roll bar anchor might suffer clogging and would not re-set until the fluke had self cleaned (considering that self cleaning might take time in the real world and your yacht might then be on the beach, or rocks).
The key to me, the missing bit of information, was Geem's use of the word 'squall'. My knowledge of Caribbean squalls is limited (almost zero) and is actually restricted to a squall in which one of the bendy shank models bent, I was given the anchor and I had its shank analysed - but the squall was severe, unforecast and from a wind direction different to the set direction. The fluke was effective, very (it held tenaciously) but the shank was side loaded - and not being a HT steel - it bent.
This event had me testing snatch loading of anchors and I conducted another test. I set anchors to 500kg tension (equivalent to maybe 35 knots - nothing special) and then snatch loaded them.
This was the result on a Fortress and an early model of the Anchor Right aluminium Excel.
Anchor Right were appalled at the damage, re-engineered the aluminium Excel and gave me a new one, and Fortress sent me a new shank in their 'no questions asked' guarantee.
But in my tests on clogging anchors I conducted a similar test - 500kg set and then applied increasing tension in the direction opposite to the set direction, I somersaulted the anchors. The roll bar anchor, Supreme and Rocna both had a compacted clot in the fluke - and the anchors did not re-set until the clots had self cleaned.
If you have never suffered a squall in a direction opposite to your original set - then your anchor will simply set more deeply. If you suffer a squall in a direction opposite to the set direction - my tests (and maybe Geem's description) indicate what might happen.
It night never happen to you but Geem gives a first hand example of 'something' happening, Morgan's Cloud seem to suggest clogging is/was a suffice issue for them to remove their recommendation for roll bar (or some) roll bar anchors. Many owners of Rocna do agree, or confirm that often when they retreive their anchor it his full of seabed - if when you retrieve your anchor it is clogged - why do you imagine it only happens when you retreive - what do you imagine happens when you power set anchor is subject to a 40 knot squall with winds contrary to those that have averaged during the day....
And did the bottle of wine ever materialise - or is it a dream, like the unpredictability of squall wind directions....!
Jonathan
geem
Well-known member
No bottle of wine.Doubts have been expressed over the Rocna dragging at all as owners here find their Rocna totally reliable.
Geem mentioned that a squall came through and it was the squall that resulted in the anchor dragging (though equally the anchor might have simply been poorly set). But Geem does mention that when his wife retrieved the anchor it was full of weed.
Now - as the anchor was dragged over the weedy seabed it might have collected weed on its travels.
The tests I conducted were designed to simulate one example of where a roll bar anchor might suffer clogging and would not re-set until the fluke had self cleaned (considering that self cleaning might take time in the real world and your yacht might then be on the beach, or rocks).
The key to me, the missing bit of information, was Geem's use of the word 'squall'. My knowledge of Caribbean squalls is limited (almost zero) and is actually restricted to a squall in which one of the bendy shank models bent, I was given the anchor and I had its shank analysed - but the squall was severe, unforecast and from a wind direction different to the set direction. The fluke was effective, very (it held tenaciously) but the shank was side loaded - and not being a HT steel - it bent.
This event had me testing snatch loading of anchors and I conducted another test. I set anchors to 500kg tension (equivalent to maybe 35 knots - nothing special) and then snatch loaded them.
This was the result on a Fortress and an early model of the Anchor Right aluminium Excel.
View attachment 157606
View attachment 157607
Anchor Right were appalled at the damage, re-engineered the aluminium Excel and gave me a new one, and Fortress sent me a new shank in their 'no questions asked' guarantee.
But in my tests on clogging anchors I conducted a similar test - 500kg set and then applied increasing tension in the direction opposite to the set direction, I somersaulted the anchors. The roll bar anchor, Supreme and Rocna both had a compacted clot in the fluke - and the anchors did not re-set until the clots had self cleaned.
If you have never suffered a squall in a direction opposite to your original set - then your anchor will simply set more deeply. If you suffer a squall in a direction opposite to the set direction - my tests (and maybe Geem's description) indicate what might happen.
It night never happen to you but Geem gives a first hand example of 'something' happening, Morgan's Cloud seem to suggest clogging is/was a suffice issue for them to remove their recommendation for roll bar (or some) roll bar anchors. Many owners of Rocna do agree, or confirm that often when they retreive their anchor it his full of seabed - if when you retrieve your anchor it is clogged - why do you imagine it only happens when you retreive - what do you imagine happens when you power set anchor is subject to a 40 knot squall with winds contrary to those that have averaged during the day....
And did the bottle of wine ever materialise - or is it a dream, like the unpredictability of squall wind directions....!
Jonathan
The winds here have been light by Caribbean Trade wind standards. Only in the teens. Squalls topically give 5 to 10kts wind increase when a squall cloud come through. You get a change in wind direction of up to 90 degrees.
The squall that caused the two boats to drag was only 25kts. So about 10kts above the normal wind. The French charter boat sorted itself out as they were all onboard. The absent owners only had us. There was no other boats here as its end of the season.
I suspect the boat we reacued simply hadn't power set the anchor. We couldn't get the anchor to set but some of that may have been our inability to free drop the anchor. We couldnt find a handle to release the windlass.
It's hard to pay out chain in 25kts when the anchor chain is deploying so slowly. You have no idea when the anchor has hit the bottom like you do when you free drop the anchor. It is possible we were dragging the Rocna through the thick seagrass and picking up grass such that the anchor wouldn't set.
I ask the owner about free dropping and he said he never did it. No wonder I couldn't find a handle.
I think most anchor dragging episodes are down to poor practise, even by owners that have had the same boat and anchor gear for a number of years.
The charterers often give a masterclass in how not to anchor but you expect liveaboard boaters to have cracked the anchoring by now. The owner has been in the Caribbean for 8 years.
Trident
Well-known member
Well that's a logical fallacy if ever I saw one.
Actually my rode has twice been pulled up by others - fortunately I was aboard at the time and after some invective just re-anchored but these things happen all the time in crowded anchorages and the anchor alarm would, if I was not on board at least alert me to return. The boat may be long gone out to sea or just dragging slowly until the Rocna inevitably re-set but to know would be good.
I don't have a paging anchor alarm anyway but the post suggesting it I thought made good sense and some overly arrogant responses about how they are unnecessary if you do it right seemed to not allow for every eventuality so I posited a few scenarios that happen in the real world quite frequently (the anchor line thing rather than theft which is vanishingly rare despite how easy boats are to steal)
Trident
Well-known member
But the PAGING alarm I mention will let you know if ashore so you can return and deal with it - what I said was if someone else pulls up your rode with theirs (as they drag or retrieve anchor if they anchored across you etc) . if they do so this may cause you to drag, or they may simply throw your anchor back in , unset, once they untangle the lines . If your boat moved in this circumstance or then dragged because of the incident you would be alerted.
I'm not selling the kit and I don't use it personally but to discount the suggestion that it could be a useful aid seems wrong to me and of course we all come on the internet to let everyone else know they are wrong
noelex
Well-known member
We have had this happen also, generally by dragging boats.. The last occurance was only a few months ago. The catamaran concerned managed to tow us at what seemed like alarming speed until we alerted them to the issue. We have also seen a few episodes of boats picking up and dropping the anchors back in the same spot while the owners were away. The problem with this is that the nicely set anchor is unseated and dropped on the seabed with a heap of chain on top and the owner does not know this has occurred.
That is a bit rough. Tip: always rescue dragging French boats first
. They always respond by donating great bottles for your trouble.
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RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
The logic is correct.
If your on your boat you can manage an anchoring event, you don't need an alarm to do that. If your not on the boat there is nothing you can do about it and an alarm is irrelevant.
About twice a year, at each end of the season usually, I’ll be anchored in +40 kts. I am either confident that my anchor has set or not, and that will decide my course of action. I have applied the same logic in crowded anchorages, risk is high, move out, or stay on boat.
I have a background in process safety and critical alarm management. Alarm systems can contribute to a significant reduction in situation awareness. Most threats are capable of being detected long before the alarm announces the warning.
Nolex gives a great example of a false positive, the fouled rode, dropped back in, unset. Did the boat move or not such that an alarm would trip?
I am not a Luddite, I have decent tech on my own boat. However, I am wary of too much reliance on tech to confirm a safe condition.
Fair winds, sail safe.
noelex
Well-known member
The recent catching of our rode by a dragging boat fortunately did not upset our anchor. The cat lifted our rode and then unhooked their anchor leaving our anchor untouched. The example was to show that boats dragging (and sometimes picking up their anchor) may also catch your rode. In most of these cases the anchor is lifted and subsequently poorly dropped by the offending boat, often with chain piled on top.
If this happens when the owner is away, they have no way of knowing their careful anchoring technique has been undone.
In these cases an anchor alarm will alert the owner if the anchor subsequently drags (due to the poor technique with the chain piled on top of the anchor) or even immediately on their return if the anchor has not been dropped in exactly the same location.
In these and many other conventional cases such as the anchor landing on an isolated rock or debris, the anchor security will be compromised without, in many instances, even a diligent skipper with the best equipment and technique being aware and this is ignoring the more common cases when the anchor drags due to a poor substrate and/or conditions.
Anchoring is not 100% secure despite what you might read on forums.
Neeves
Well-known member
It has never been suggested that anchoring (nor a berth in a marina) is 100% secure. It is never suggested that any practice relevant to yachts is 100% predictable.
That's why we have these forum.
Post 56 seems apt.
Jonathan
geem
Well-known member
In gale force conditions we do an anchor watch if there are other boats anchored up wind of us. We did this a couple of years ago in the Helford River when we ran from the summer storm that hit the Isles of Scilly. Gusting 45kts all night. An anchor alarm won't tell you if a dragging boat is bearing down on you.
I am not against the tech. I have an alarm app on my phone I just don't use it. I do occasionally leave the navionics running on the ipad so I can see our swing pattern. This would alert me if we are dragging but we do not routinely set an alarm. Our wind turbine is our alert that the wind is howling and we aught to get up and have a look. This has notified us to a couple of dragging boat this season that have passed close to us in squalls
noelex
Well-known member
Yes, I agree.
If you have good anchoring equipment and technique this is by far the greatest risk and an anchor alarm does not help mitigate this danger. We have been hit several times by dragging boats over the years, fortunately with no damage.
