Downwind sails

[PabloPicasso]

I have a Hanse 301

I would like to get a downwind sail but not sure what to get

Symetric, asymetric spin (how do I work out what size to get?)

Do I need a bowsprit to fly an asymmetric?

Could I fly an asymetric from the pole? What length pole?

 

[Tranona]

Discuss with your sailmaker what you are looking for and get recommendations. If you ask 2 sailmakers you might get 4 different options but will benefit from their explanations that underpin their choices.

Most sailmakers provide information on the different types of sails and their usage. This kempsails.com/knowledge-zone/expert-advice-2/downwind-update-2/ is an example. They made the offwind sail for my Bavaria 33 essentially a G zero style with a top down furler. My boat did not need either a bowsprit or a pole and the sail was made with that in mind. Very successful.

 

[MontyMariner]

Mob handed or Solo?
Solo, I use a genoa plus inner forestay and hank on Yankee, one or both poled out.

 

[chris-s]

You don’t need a bowsprit for an asymmetrical, we fly ours with the tack running thru a block on the bow roller. They don’t generally work well if poled out like a symmetrical, at least ours doesn’t, it’s too big and the shape is wrong. And depending on the cut/shape how far downwind it can be used for will be affected. We can’t use ours effectively much beyond 160degrees, then it’s time to swap to the symmetrical.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We obviously use an asymmetric. It’s set from a 1.6m sprit, though we can, if needed, pull the tack to the windward ama bow, but it’s a bit of a faff. We only bother with that if it’s going to be an hour or more. At 160 degrees ours will have long collapsed. Letting the tack line off from there, it hangs behind the main like a wet dishcloth, very useful for recovery. The hanse is a pretty nippy boat, I would certainly consider an asymmetric for ease of use, and just fun, but it’s not going to be faster in all circumstances. Tranona has obviously been through the process, nothing to add to that.

 

[geem]

You don’t need a bowsprit for an asymmetrical, we fly ours with the tack running thru a block on the bow roller. They don’t generally work well if poled out like a symmetrical, at least ours doesn’t, it’s too big and the shape is wrong. And depending on the cut/shape how far downwind it can be used for will be affected. We can’t use ours effectively much beyond 160degrees, then it’s time to swap to the symmetrical.

We use an asymmetric spinnaker cut for use on a pole. Super stable and works from wind on the beam to DDW. It's larger than the original, and very unstable, bell shaped symmetric spinnaker the boat had when built. We fly this 165m2 sail with just me and the wife

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

Has anyone tried an oversize genoa maybe made from lighter cloth? It must have a name?

I could use something for the summer easier to handle than a spinnaker, and cheaper to install than a bowsprit and second furler...

 

[Tranona]

Has anyone tried an oversize genoa maybe made from lighter cloth? It must have a name?

I could use something for the summer easier to handle than a spinnaker, and cheaper to install than a bowsprit and second furler...

Such things used to be common until the advent of asymmetrics which are much more useful. No real need for a furler although of course it makes life easier particularly if short or single handed.

 

[Kwik Decision]

The "best" down wind sail is arguably a spinnaker, which can be set with the wind anywhere from on the beam to dead aft, by setting the pole correctly. However they are a lot of work if you're short handed, and if you don't already have a pole, up haul, down haul, and track on the mast to fasten one end to, it's expensive to get set up.
This is why a lot of cruising sailers (including us) tend to go for a cruising chute / asymmetrical kite. As said above, these can be flown from a tack line at the bow roller (cheapest option, and what we do) or from a bow sprit. They are often spec'd with a snuffer, to make handling them easier. The downside is they don't set dead down wind, as they're blanketed by the main, but they're great on a reach.
Our first boat came with a spinnaker, and it was a pain to use, such that it only came out 3 or 4 times in 7 yrs. It was swapped for a cruising chute.
When we got our new (to us) boat, one of the first things we did was get it set up to fly the chute, which is used several times a year.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Has anyone tried an oversize genoa maybe made from lighter cloth? It must have a name?

I could use something for the summer easier to handle than a spinnaker, and cheaper to install than a bowsprit and second furler...

One name for such a large, lightweight genoa was a “ghoster” the foot usually ran from bow to quarter. Useful for sailing up wind to a beam reach but progressively became more useless down wind, where a cruising chute became the better option. I should note that a cruising chute dead down wind, really needed to be goosewinged to work, even at about 150 degrees they start to collapse because the main blankets them. Centering the main, or dropping it, or hoisting a spinnaker would be better. On more than one occasion it was easy to drop the main in light winds and just sail down wind with a cruising chute.

PBO article explains a lot Cruising chute or spinnaker? We compare both sails on the same boat on different points of sail - Practical Boat Owner

 

[Dockhead]

I have a Hanse 301

I would like to get a downwind sail but not sure what to get

Symetric, asymetric spin (how do I work out what size to get?)

Do I need a bowsprit to fly an asymmetric?

Could I fly an asymetric from the pole? What length pole?

I fly my A2 from a pole. It works very well indeed like that.

I've used various types of chutes over the years. Ideally you would have a few different ones for different conditions and points of sail, but that's not realistic for most of us, who have sail storage problems as it is.

I acquired the A2 for racing, and it was brilliant for that, but I use it just for fun, too. It's a friendly sail which doesn't collapse easily like symmetricals do, and it's good for a surprisingly wide range of wind angles from 10 degrees off DDW to well ahead of the beam. It's good fun to use, provided you're not short handed (but remember this is a 220m2 sail on a 54' boat, a proper cloud of sail).

The pole gives you more control than a sprit, makes it possible to do a wider range of wind angles, but obviously it's less convenient since you have all the extra rigging to do.

My A2 is medium weight and is good for wind range from very light up to 15-18 knots apparent. It's very powerful.

What concerns length, you would want something like a normal spin pole, which is about equal to your J dimension, or a bit less. Ours is a "cheater pole", from a TP52, 8.5m long so obviously somewhat of a chore to use, but it has the advantage of extending well over the pulpit when trimmed forward. The longer the pole, the better you can get the sail out into clean air. But the less convenient it is to use, requiring a bunch of extra lines -- guys, pole lift, downhaul. You don't need any of those with a sprit.

So a sprit is also worth considering. It's not that expensive, and it's a whole lot easier to use than a pole, if you're short handed. Selden or someone make these rings you bolt to your deck, and the sprit slides back through those to be stowed back on deck. Very nice setup.

 

[Dockhead]

One name for such a large, lightweight genoa was a “ghoster” the foot usually ran from bow to quarter. Useful for sailing up wind to a beam reach but progressively became more useless down wind, where a cruising chute became the better option. I should note that a cruising chute dead down wind, really needed to be goosewinged to work, even at about 150 degrees they start to collapse because the main blankets them. Centering the main, or dropping it, or hoisting a spinnaker would be better. On more than one occasion it was easy to drop the main in light winds and just sail down wind with a cruising chute.

PBO article explains a lot Cruising chute or spinnaker? We compare both sails on the same boat on different points of sail - Practical Boat Owner

I've found ghosters to work pretty well downwind provided you pole them out. Obviously much less useful for that than a spinnaker.

I have found assymetricals not to be much worthwhile DDW. Like you said, you need to gybe the main to the other side. But even after you've done all that faff, you're still much slower than the VMG you will make if you just head up 15 degrees or so. By 165 or so it's not hard to keep the sail working by poling out the clew, and trimming the mainsail in somewhat. If you get the clew out beyond the wind shadow of the main, it will direct wind around into the rest of the sail.

And that's why I find symmetrical spinnakers to be much less useful than assys. The forte of symmetricals is DDW or nearly DDW, but that's not how you want to be sailing in any case. An assy is already working better by 15 or 20 degrees off DDW, and then better and better as you head up, and they are much less trouble to trim and keep from collapsing. A much more versatile sail in my opinion.

We crossed the Atlantic in 2022 on a Discovery 67 with a big assy, from Cape Verde to Antigua, and it was GREAT. That sail pulled us all the way across the ocean. It was hardly any trouble. When the wind was directly behind us, we simply headed up a bit, and did long legs and gybed. Or played the wind shifts.

 

[geem]

I've found ghosters to work pretty well downwind provided you pole them out. Obviously much less useful for that than a spinnaker.

I have found assymetricals not to be much worthwhile DDW. Like you said, you need to gybe the main to the other side. But even after you've done all that faff, you're still much slower than the VMG you will make if you just head up 15 degrees or so. By 165 or so it's not hard to keep the sail working by poling out the clew, and trimming the mainsail in somewhat. If you get the clew out beyond the wind shadow of the main, it will direct wind around into the rest of the sail.

And that's why I find symmetrical spinnakers to be much less useful than assys. The forte of symmetricals is DDW or nearly DDW, but that's not how you want to be sailing in any case. An assy is already working better by 15 or 20 degrees off DDW, and then better and better as you head up, and they are much less trouble to trim and keep from collapsing. A much more versatile sail in my opinion.

We crossed the Atlantic in 2022 on a Discovery 67 with a big assy, from Cape Verde to Antigua, and it was GREAT. That sail pulled us all the way across the ocean. It was hardly any trouble. When the wind was directly behind us, we simply headed up a bit, and did long legs and gybed. Or played the wind shifts.

As I said in an earlier post, we use an asymmetric on a pole. I don't know what you would call the sail but it was built to a specification that allows us to use it like a symmetrical spinnaker but it has far more stability. DDW it's super stable. When our boat would be rolling away merrily on white sails, the spinnaker settles the boat and we get an upright, faster passage. I am sure a far faster boat than mine would benefit from gibing down wind in the right conditions but we prefer DDW if it's taking us to our destination.
We met a family on a Pogo that sailed across the pond, gybing all the way. He was disappointed in his crossing time. He had done way more miles than necessary, chasing boat speed by sailing angles. The reality was, he was overloaded with four adults onboard and gear for an Atlantic circuit. He couldn't make good speed and would have been better sailing the shorter distance of DDW, but he didn't have suitable downwind sails.

 

[Dockhead]

As I said in an earlier post, we use an asymmetric on a pole. I don't know what you would call the sail but it was built to a specification that allows us to use it like a symmetrical spinnaker but it has far more stability. DDW it's super stable. When our boat would be rolling away merrily on white sails, the spinnaker settles the boat and we get an upright, faster passage. I am sure a far faster boat than mine would benefit from gibing down wind in the right conditions but we prefer DDW if it's taking us to our destination.
We met a family on a Pogo that sailed across the pond, gybing all the way. He was disappointed in his crossing time. He had done way more miles than necessary, chasing boat speed by sailing angles. The reality was, he was overloaded with four adults onboard and gear for an Atlantic circuit. He couldn't make good speed and would have been better sailing the shorter distance of DDW, but he didn't have suitable downwind sails.

Pogos are extremely fast but only in a surprisingly narrow range of conditions. They are an extreme example of an "apparent wind machine" -- worthless DDW; you need to always work the angles. We slaughtered one on uncorrected time in our last ocean race -- a cruising boat loaded with tonnes of parts, tools, and supplies. But with a 47' waterline .

Every boat is a little different, and you should sail your own boat in whatever way works best!

A pole allows any spinnaker to be used DDW, but the problem is you lose most of the benefit of the mainsail. On most boats, you will have more sail area if you head up a bit so that both sails are working. But even that is not true in 100% of cases -- it also depends on the length of the pole, and cut of the sail.

 

[geem]

Pogos are extremely fast but only in a surprisingly narrow range of conditions. They are an extreme example of an "apparent wind machine" -- worthless DDW; you need to always work the angles. We slaughtered one on uncorrected time in our last ocean race -- a cruising boat loaded with tonnes of parts, tools, and supplies. But with a 47' waterline .

Every boat is a little different, and you should sail your own boat in whatever way works best!

A pole allows any spinnaker to be used DDW, but the problem is you lose most of the benefit of the mainsail. On most boats, you will have more sail area if you head up a bit so that both sails are working. But even that is not true in 100% of cases -- it also depends on the length of the pole, and cut of the sail.

Yep, we also beat a smaller Pogo across the pond last year as well as a lot of larger and more modern yachts. We have had our heavy monohull long enough to know what makes her tick and how to get the best out of her. Everybody thinks heavy= slow. It's all about design

 

[Dockhead]

Yep, we also beat a smaller Pogo across the pond last year as well as a lot of larger and more modern yachts. We have had our heavy monohull long enough to know what makes her tick and how to get the best out of her. Everybody thinks heavy= slow. It's all about design

Heavy DOES mean slow, all other things being equal. But all other things never are, so . . .

Lighter and smaller boats are particularly poor when trying to get upwind against a head sea in lively conditions, and that includes Pogos, which are rocket ships in certain conditions. Here you really do need a certain amount of weight to keep momentum bashing through the head seas. We are light in terms of D/L (less than 200), but we're 54' on deck so still more than 20 tonnes.

And then there's simply the factor of skill. It's not all the boat!

 

[geem]

Heavy DOES mean slow, all other things being equal. But all other things never are, so . . .

Lighter and smaller boats are particularly poor when trying to get upwind against a head sea in lively conditions, and that includes Pogos, which are rocket ships in certain conditions. Here you really do need a certain amount of weight to keep momentum bashing through the head seas. We are light in terms of D/L (less than 200), but we're 54' on deck so still more than 20 tonnes.

And then there's simply the factor of skill. It's not all the boat!

There are so many variables in boat design that weight is simply one variable. Hull shape is super important. A pogo like shape can give you incredible speed under the right conditions but overloaded in light winds that flat bottomed wedge shape is all drag. When you are moving well below hull speeds, a hemispherical hull design has much reduced drag for its displacement. It's under these conditions that our heavy boat excels. But there are many more factors. We have large sail area. Folding prop. Vectran sails.
But yes, knowing how to get the best from the boat is something you learn

 

[Laser310]

Cruisers often have trouble going downwind with an asym...

first-having a sprit is much better than tacking it to the bow - the longer the better.

second - most cruising asym's are not runners.., they are reaching spinnakers. A proper A2 on a long sprit will go downwind pretty well.

Asym's can be flown from a spinnaker pole and it works quite well - for a while quite a few racing boats had this configuration. I raced on one. often the pole is a "penalty" pole -longer than the J dimension. The downside is they are harder to gybe than a symmetrical kite on a pole; you typically need one more person. For cruisers, this might be a problem, unless you don't gybe often.

 

[merjan]

We use a symmetric for cruising on a lightweight 28 footer. If it’s too windy to deal with it, we don’t need to fly one for cruising anyway.

 

[samfieldhouse]

Single handed in my 28fter I have a modestly sized asymmetric with a snuffer (as per my forum pic).
Dead easy and perfect for light airs. No faff.
I used to fly it from the stem head, but have now made a bowsprit to get it further forward but that wasn’t completely necessary.
The sail and snuffer were £400 on eBay - a good budget way to dip one’s toe in the water if not sure about what downwind sail to choose!