Downwind sailing, What to buy?

Norman_E

Norman_E

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A recent thread (here) on upwind performance leads me to ask about improving my boat's downwind performance. I have no problems with upwind performance, but because I have a smaller than standard genoa, I struggle to get any decent speed downwind unless there is the better part of a 20 knot wind behind me. The genoa is heavy, and prone to collapse in light winds, and is too easily blanketed by the mainsail.

Clearly what I need is some kind of light downwind sail that can be raised, set, and taken down by one person, and does not require a pole. (because a pole big enough for my boat would be too heavy for me.)

What should I buy, gennaker and snuffer? parasail and snuffer? gennaker and a furler plus the bowsprit to go with it?
or what? The least complication the better, and cost is an issue.
 
Well, first of all, you need to define your downwnd sailing.

If you mean Trade Winds - its dead downwind, which pretty much rules out Cruising Chutes or Asymmetrics, and F5 in strength-ish (plus)

If you mean general off the wind work, from a fine reach to a broad reach, then a Cruising chute is great.Up to F4

You could get a 2nd Genoa and setup a Twizzle rig - good for Dead downwind, and you can roll up both sails to act as one Genoa when upwind as a temp measure. Bit long distance though. F quite a lot.

Normal kite on your boat is pretty large, and you will need a pole, which you dont want. Up to F8 for the brave and foolhardy.

Several here have Parasailors but they are eye watering prices. F Dunno.

My suggestion? get a lightweight whisker pole for the genoa use. These dont need to be as heavy as a spinnaker pole. On my 35ft with 150% genoa, I have been using a 50mm pole 3m long, which should be totally underspecced, but has lasted in F4, which is the point I put the pole away, and also the Cruising chute too.
 
Sorry about the following non yottie terms.....I wonder if your pennies would allow you to buy an extending carbon fibre pole. I saw one used on a video recently for spinnaker handling and it was also fixed by its ring on a track which stored it up the mast so it was always held secure at one end and then slid down to the horizontal position. I only sail a small boat in comparison but to pole out my big genoa is a terrific advantage at times on a run.
I use a rope loop through the genoa cringle to connect the pole instead of attaching directly to the sheet. This is then sacrificial and is o.k. if not racing and you'r not in a hurry. Also I use the lazy sheet as a downhaul tied forward to a large cleat to stop things moving about.
With the main pulled forward with a preventor I have sailed a few hundred miles like this and furled even in a F7. However, I couldn't get that frustrated with a small genoa and I would also invest in at least a 140% genoa and use that on a run with a pole, especially if you have a roller reefing.

"I have no problems with upwind performance, but because I have a smaller than standard genoa" Not sure how that improves the upwind performance, but then I'm still learning.
 
Singlehanded on a 45ft boat, there is not much margin for sorting out tangles or jams with sails that are going to be big.
I might be tempted by a roller furling gennaker of some sort.
I guess you have a good autopilot?
Goosewinging and what have you is fine on a long passage, but gybing or luffing up can become hard work if you need to work around other boats a lot.
A kite/chute of some sort is a lot more fun!
 
My last boat was easily single handed with a fairly large kite using a snuffer and having the pole on a track up the mast.
She was 21.15m with a 7/8ths 18m mast so not a small rig.

Just take it one step at a time, guy in, pole up, hoist kite, release snuffer, pull guy back, pull up snuffer and sheet in. To gybe it was easiest to pull the snuffer down , and re rig the pole on the other side.
 
I'd agree with pole on a track up the mast. At 38' LOA our spin is a bit of a beast for double, let alone single handed. But with pole up mast and snuffer I can set and hand it easily.

We also have a cruising 'chute which we use with or without pole depending upon wind angle and, to be frank, mood on the day. Again with snuffer relatively easy to handle.

If the wind gets too strong then let the sheet fly, snuff and the rest is fairly straightforward.
 
Pole on the mast is a PITA. Much easier to raise horizontally off the deck that all that faffing about adjusting pole lift then the heel, then the pole lift then the heel ad nauseam. All the time the thing is swinging about threatening awful damage to crew and boat.
 
Hmm, pole off the deck easy? Have you tried to attach the mast end of the pole on a pitching deck on a 38 footer? The weight of the pole trying to push you off the deck. You're welcome to it! We did the pole on deck bit for 10 years and there's no way we'd go back to it.

From the mast the you just lower down track and drop the end not attached to the mast on to the deck where you attach the sheets no swinging, no problems.
 
I've got a pole attached to the mast. It is a great way of keeping the pole out of the way (avoiding a trip hazard). I find it easy to deploy, but I use the spinnaker only infrequently.

The downside of this arrangement for me is that, when stowed against the mast, one of the genoa sheets snags the pole about 25% of the time when tacking. The way I solve this is to have a line fixed from the bottom of the pole down to the foredeck - thereby recreating a trip hazard that the original fixing method so usefully avoided.

Anyway, back to the OP's question, surely any downwind sail that doesn't necessitate a pole is going to be easier to operate single- or short-handed than one of an equivalent size that does. That is why, three years after speccing the boat with only a spinnaker, I finally splashed out last year on a cruising chute.

I know they are for different sailing angles, but (compared with the spinnaker) the cruising chute is a doddle when short handed.
 
Thanks to everyone on this. I am leaning towards a cruising chute and snuffer, on grounds of cost and simplicity. If I were to go for a furling system I would have to add a bowsprit, which adds complication. I am starting asking for quotes.
 
Hi Chris, I was recently advised to have my pole on a centrally fixed uphaul which did allow it to be controlled a lot easier and made gybing the spinnaker a lot safer.
There are some simple techniques I follow when using a pole, and on a genoa it can be very safe indeed.
I tend to attach the pole to the loop described in my earlier post (as I have not got the facility to have my pole up the mast) when I have only about 3-5feet of genoa unfurled. With mast end already attached and the pullpit end prior to this held in a strop of some sort on the pullpit, things can sit there until I'm ready to attach ploe to genoa.Then the working sheet can be pulled so as to unfurl as much genoa is required. The only thing then is to fix the downhaul to hold all tight.
I agree it's not best to have too many lines attached that you cannot release in a hurry when in a busy area such as Cowes on a bank hol', but at sea with bags of space and with a days run ahead it works.
I have only recently flown a spinnaker successfully and aided with advice from this forum, books and videos we did the Round the Island race recently having flown the spinnaker that morning for the first time with a good result.
Just because a boat is bigger it doesn't mean a pole is dangerous. Just use it in the right conditions in a safe way.
I do have a good windvane which I use when setting up by running just on the prevented main, or I sheet in the main to a central position and use the engine with the tiller pilot.
I'm no teenager ( I do qualify for a bus pass) and not overly experienced, but I do like to stretch myself and keep learning and I do get a high from things working out well and not necessarily being like sailing a dead flat caravan.
 
It is not just a case of money is it? The important thing for me would be to adopt a system that was easy to use single handed.

For a single-handed 45 foot boat in the Med I would give a cruising chute a lot of thought before committing money to what could be still a "white elephant".

An alternative would be a second-hand spinnaker for a smaller boat. Cheap, and more effective and stable than a cruising chute. Say a second-hand spinnaker for a 30 foot boat.

I had a cruising chute on my previous boat and it was forever collapsing as the boat rolled so I hardly used it. But it may have been my technique or lack off. The spinnaker held up nicely though with better control.
 
A cruising chute is not really a downwind sail as it only really is effective from a reach to a broad reach. If you can't be faffed with a spinnaker i'd go with Fullcircle's suggestion of whisker pole for goosewinging. If so, an uphaul and downhaul makes the set up much more stable and relaxing.
 
[ QUOTE ]
A cruising chute is not really a downwind sail as it only really is effective from a reach to a broad reach.

[/ QUOTE ]

In lighter winds, which is generally when single handers will want the extra power, it does not take much to get the apparent wind far enough forwards to keep a cruising chute happy. Even with a symmetrical kite, most yachts want to avoid the dead run for best progress downwind in up to at least 10knots of wind.
It depends whether you want to sail the boat to get the best out of it or rigidly follow a course.
I found with my 39ft boat that in say 10knots true, heading up
around 15 degrees would raise the boatspeed enough to make a worthwhile improvement over running goosewinged. And I found it much more enjoyable sailing, but that's obviously a personal taste. Also when going along the coast, You can gybe out into favourable tide or into bays looking for less tide.
In stronger winds, the ability to use a cruising chute on a closer reach will probably be limited by the righting moment of the yacht. The sail will set at say 45 degrees apparent, but the heeling moment is big, unless the kite is too small!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks to everyone on this. I am leaning towards a cruising chute and snuffer, on grounds of cost and simplicity. If I were to go for a furling system I would have to add a bowsprit, which adds complication. I am starting asking for quotes.

[/ QUOTE ]

A year ago, for my 40 footer, I paid Kemp Sails £1,200 inc. VAT for a full tri-radial cruising chute with a snuffer. Their's was the best quote I got at the boatshow. Obviously a cross cut would be cheaper. Not sure what has happened to sail prices since then. Didn't need to buy any extra gear, cos I already had it with the spinnaker.
 
I presume yo wanted tri radial for reaching performance and cross cut perfectly adequate for broad reaching?
 
I think it was more to do with the chap from Kemp being a good salesman!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I wasn't aware that it made any difference to point of sail. I think the sail would have been the smae shape whichever I had gone for. I thought it was more to do with tri-radial = seams run parallel to stresses, so able to withstand a higher windspeed.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Many generations of blue-water sailors found a square rig very effective!

[/ QUOTE ]
At sailing downwind, undoubtedly.

Trouble is going the other way. But, as we all know, gentlemen don't ......
 
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