Don't laugh - AWB or Swan !

[morsimon]

For your first boat, a 55 footer is big and a will be a handful, even assuming you have a good crew and the boat is well set up for short handed sailing. The Swans are racers or cruiser racers with big, high performance rigs, deep keels and decks usually laid out for large crews. The accommodation similarly tends to be designed for racing crews and although the quality of built is excellent the accommodation layout is not always ideal for a husband and wife with or without family and friends.

Jenbenbavs are designed for family cruising and, although less bespoke and hand finished, are built for the job. In particular, because of the charter market influence, ventilation and all fresco living is specifically catered for. HalNajMalSwe boats as well as Arconas, CRs and other (eg Wauquiez from France, Discovery and Oyster from Britain) are top quality and designed for short handed cruising.

For your first cruising boat I would recommend you look a bit smaller (say 40 to 45ft, 50ft max) and second hand. After two or three seasons you will have learned a lot, both about sailing biggish boats and what sort of sailing, and therefore type of boat, you really want. In this context the BenJenBav brigade have a lot to offer. On the other hand you are clearly a man of discernment who wants something a bit above average so an HR, Najad or Malo might suit you better.

I would not recommend a big Swan as a first cruising boat under any circumstances although after a few years you may decide that really is want you want.

jamesjermain- thank you for your well-considered post.

I do appreciate that 50+ ft is a lot of yacht although I believe (am told) that the Swan 53 is specifically set up for short-handed sailing and can be easily managed by 2 people, obviously I stand to be corrected on this. I understand that many of the Nautor Swan range is much more racing-orientated. My recent bareboats have been for Moorings 51 ft yachts which I have felt quite confortable with - however your point is well made.

Also many thanks for not infering that there is something unacceptable in trying to talk about semi-custom yachts and production boats at the same time - if you are not a permanent offshore cruiser then they serve a similar purpose to get you from A to B and hopefully back again in reasonable comfort and safety. From having read these forums for some time there does seem to be a strange elitism that haunts a number of posters - my point has simply been that the mass production builders do give you a lot of boat and functionality for a relatively small outlay when compared to semi-custom builders.

I have considered Wauquiez and Discovery although I didnt feel that the latter was right for me in terms of the accomodation layout. The former still remains a possibility.

Your advice is probably confirming what I have known all along but have not really wanted to admit to ie go for a secondhand Jenbenbav now, enjoy the sunshine sailing in the Med for a couple of summers and then reconsider my options and priorities. The Swan 53 is such a beautiful boat though that I do hanker for just going out and buying one right NOW. We live in an age of compulsive purchasing and instant gratification I guess. (I am not of course about to go out and buy one).

Having caught the sailing bug some time ago it doesnt change the fact that aesthetics are very important to me. I drive a nice-looking Italian car and would like a nice-looking boat. I dont think that there is anything wrong with that. I am very fortunate to be in a position where I have these difficult decisions to make !

Is your suggestion to go for secondhand also based upon the commissioning and snagging
hassles that go along with a new boat purchase or do you have other reasons for pointing me in that direction ?

 

[morsimon]

But if my requirements were the same as Morsimon's, and I had never been ignored at a boat show, presumably I could have an Oyster on my list. Where's the logic in that? The product is the same for both of us, but one had a better sales experience than the other.

If the question was which company would I buy shares in, I can see that salesmen who are offputting might be relevant, but if all I am after is the product they are selling surely I should do my best to overcome the salesman hurdle.

And as Oyster recently changed hands for something like 40 million they are obviously not upsetting all their potential customers so extrapolating from "their salesmen ignored me" to a view of the worth of the company as a whole, or its products, may not be reliable.

The logic is simply that the consumer has choice. Given my experience I have exercised my right to not spend my money with Oyster. You on the other hand are at liberty to do so.
It took me a 5 hour journey to get to the boat show and I was not best pleased with how I was treated. Others it seems are also not overly pleased with how they were treated. My conclusion is that Oyster should possibly review the training that they give their onboard personnel. I think the BMW / Audi scenario is the perfect example of discretionary spending and why we choose one product over another one.

 

[photodog]

I've been refused boarding on Oysters twice at boat shows They shouldn't judge potential buyers by what they are wearing

Well, odviously they get it right some of the time.....

 

[mike_bryon]

Why not buy the Swan and employ someone to teach you how to get the most out of it and deal with the snaggings? Training might cost less than the brokerage fee on the stepping stone AWB and you would fulfil your dream two or three years earlier.

 

[jamesjermain]

jamesjermain- thank you for your well-considered post.

I do appreciate that 50+ ft is a lot of yacht although I believe (am told) that the Swan 53 is specifically set up for short-handed sailing and can be easily managed by 2 people, obviously I stand to be corrected on this. I understand that many of the Nautor Swan range is much more racing-orientated. My recent bareboats have been for Moorings 51 ft yachts which I have felt quite confortable with - however your point is well made.

Also many thanks for not infering that there is something unacceptable in trying to talk about semi-custom yachts and production boats at the same time - if you are not a permanent offshore cruiser then they serve a similar purpose to get you from A to B and hopefully back again in reasonable comfort and safety. From having read these forums for some time there does seem to be a strange elitism that haunts a number of posters - my point has simply been that the mass production builders do give you a lot of boat and functionality for a relatively small outlay when compared to semi-custom builders.

I have considered Wauquiez and Discovery although I didnt feel that the latter was right for me in terms of the accomodation layout. The former still remains a possibility.

Your advice is probably confirming what I have known all along but have not really wanted to admit to ie go for a secondhand Jenbenbav now, enjoy the sunshine sailing in the Med for a couple of summers and then reconsider my options and priorities. The Swan 53 is such a beautiful boat though that I do hanker for just going out and buying one right NOW. We live in an age of compulsive purchasing and instant gratification I guess. (I am not of course about to go out and buy one).

Having caught the sailing bug some time ago it doesnt change the fact that aesthetics are very important to me. I drive a nice-looking Italian car and would like a nice-looking boat. I dont think that there is anything wrong with that. I am very fortunate to be in a position where I have these difficult decisions to make !

Is your suggestion to go for secondhand also based upon the commissioning and snagging
hassles that go along with a new boat purchase or do you have other reasons for pointing me in that direction ?

Boat buying is an emotional thing and businessmen who would'nt dream of spending the best part of a mill without exhausive investigations happily buy yachts on appearance and reputation - its just the way of things and I'm sure if I was in your position I would be sorely tempted too. . If you can say that the old adage - if you have to ask the price you can't afford it - doesn't apply, go ahead.

I can see that you've thought about the handling side and have some experience so maybe a large boat wouldn't be a problem, but I still think a second hand production boat would be a better place to start than the Swan - sorry.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Why not buy the Swan and employ someone to teach you how to get the most out of it and deal with the snaggings? Training might cost less than the brokerage fee on the stepping stone AWB and you would fulfil your dream two or three years earlier.

I agree, he should buy the Swan.

Regarding the attitude of certain salesmen. I wonder if the nasty English class system is still paramount. In England a persons accent is difficult to disguise and to a snob salesman it is a dead giveaway to a persons origins, and to a narrow minded prick it is a reason to fawn and grovel. Then along comes "eee by gum lad that's a champion boat your flogging off" After dealing with a posh fruity accent a salesman could find himself the victim of his own class prejudice.

It's nothing at all to do with dress, it's the accent.

 

[morsimon]

Boat buying is an emotional thing and businessmen who would'nt dream of spending the best part of a mill without exhausive investigations happily buy yachts on appearance and reputation - its just the way of things and I'm sure if I was in your position I would be sorely tempted too. . If you can say that the old adage - if you have to ask the price you can't afford it - doesn't apply, go ahead.

I can see that you've thought about the handling side and have some experience so maybe a large boat wouldn't be a problem, but I still think a second hand production boat would be a better place to start than the Swan - sorry.

cf A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing !

No, the £750,000 differential between a secondhand production boat and the Swan has significant meaning to me although my fear is that 2 or 3 years down the road and not working anymore I will then be unable to convince myself to spend what would be required to purchase the Swan.

Nothing to be sorry for - your opinion was sought

(I quite like the idea of buying the Swan and paying for the tuition and snagging support but I guess that could apply as equally to the production boat with the cash differential intact. I may even able to convince myself that I am actually saving £750,000 which is of course delusional)

 

[zarathustra]

Oyster doesn't work for me - found their young staff at SIBS unacceptably snotty

I have heard those same comments by numerous others about the Oyster staff.
Have you seen the CNB 60 that Magnum is getting, I think its around your budget, I maybe wrong on that, I gather that will be his first sailing yacht also. The Discovery 55 designed by Ron Holland is another beautiful yacht aimed at shorthanded sailors.
http://uk.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Discovery-Discovery-55-2210340/United-Kingdom
heres a nice 2005 Swan in Holland
http://uk.yachtworld.com/boats/2005/Nautor-Swan-56---043-2284438/Netherlands

 

[Sybarite]

Given your tastes and budget have you considered Hinckley yachts?

http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/home_large.html

 

[Bajansailor]

I think that if I had a choice of a Swan or a Hinckley, both of similar size and price, I would definitely go for the Hinckley! Each has its own elegance and pose value, and both will sail like a dream, as well as being beautifully constructed.

But I have just come back down to earth, and reality, after drifting through Sybarite's link above.
All of the above posters have offered much very useful advice based on experience, and I think that James sums it all up very nicely.
One of the reasons (apart from cost) why the Benjenbav AWBs are so popular is that they evolved to suit the market that they were aiming for - and they all do this very well.

A typical 40' yacht will have 3 double cabins, 2 heads, a nice saloon and galley, and another open air saloon on deck in the form of a large ergonomic and comfortable cockpit that lends itself to socialising under the large fixed bimini - and as most boats probably spend 90% of their time at anchor or moored, this is more important than racing pose value.
And I think that Morsimon's plans are for doing more of the same as he was doing before when chartering, but on his own boat, and for longer periods of time.
Hence it does make sense to consider a boat which is designed specifically for this purpose.

I haven't sailed on any modern Swans, only older S & S designs, and while they were absolute joys to sail (and to drool over), the accommodation down below was very hot (this was in the Windies) and claustrophobic and although the cockpits were good for winch grinding they were a far cry from being an upstairs open air saloon like an average AWB.

But if your heart is set on a Swan, it might be worth looking a bit further afield, and at other sizes as well?
For example, there are 3 x 48's in the Caribbean for sale on Yachtworld - here are some links.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/Nautor-Swan-48-1900086/Trinidad-and-Tobago
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/Nautor-Swan-48-110-2171242/British-Virgin-Islands
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Nautor-Swan-48-134-2033779/Grenada

For general reference out here, you could also keep an eye on www.bviyachtsales.com and http://www.caraibe-yachts.com/en/usedboats.php?search=monohulls&length=48:0 and

 

[morsimon]

Mmmmm

Given your tastes and budget have you considered Hinckley yachts?

http://www.hinckleyyachts.com/home_large.html

Sybarite and Bajansailor

Many thanks for your contributions - I had not looked at Hinckley but they do seem fabulous with fantastic lines ! Very few of them on the secondhand market I notice and nothing after 1996 as far as the 52' design is concerned - I presume they are still making them ?

Any other suggestions greatly appreciated - there is something very pleasant about looking at all these brochures.......

 

[morsimon]

I have heard those same comments by numerous others about the Oyster staff.
Have you seen the CNB 60 that Magnum is getting, I think its around your budget, I maybe wrong on that, I gather that will be his first sailing yacht also. The Discovery 55 designed by Ron Holland is another beautiful yacht aimed at shorthanded sailors.
http://uk.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Discovery-Discovery-55-2210340/United-Kingdom
heres a nice 2005 Swan in Holland
http://uk.yachtworld.com/boats/2005/Nautor-Swan-56---043-2284438/Netherlands

As I am being gently walked away byh other posters from 53' yachts I feel a sixty-footer would be way too much for me. I do admire Magnum's courage though in contracting one of these as his first sailing yacht and wish him the best of luck and happy sailing.

 

[morsimon]

Discovery 55

I have heard those same comments by numerous others about the Oyster staff.
Have you seen the CNB 60 that Magnum is getting, I think its around your budget, I maybe wrong on that, I gather that will be his first sailing yacht also. The Discovery 55 designed by Ron Holland is another beautiful yacht aimed at shorthanded sailors.
http://uk.yachtworld.com/boats/2008/Discovery-Discovery-55-2210340/United-Kingdom
heres a nice 2005 Swan in Holland
http://uk.yachtworld.com/boats/2005/Nautor-Swan-56---043-2284438/Netherlands

I agree Discovery is a beautifully built boat but I found a the layout a bit constricting and slightly claustrophobic.

Anyone have any view on Moody 49 - ie the last of the British built ones which ceased production in 2006 I think ?

 

[dratsea]

James,

To the point, as ever, I single hand a 44ft at times, once with babe in arms, but not only does the price go up with 4th power of length but so does skill needed to single hand. (yup, have all warps and two boathooks out but even with an extra ft to run there are times I would miss the buoy).

Very interested in comments re: re-sale value (not what I had assumed)

Lastly never take sailing anyone who does not like position of heads!

Good luck, fair winds, and might see you crossing pond.

 

[VO5]

I am not laughing...I am just curious.

While we are at it, what is an AWB by the way ?

 

[BrendanS]

AWB means average white boat, forum slang for a modern GRP boat, rather than an old classic (which are often GRP anyway! )

 

[Twister_Ken]

AWB means average white boat, forum slang for a modern GRP boat, rather than an old classic (which are often GRP anyway! )

Just a mild correction to Brendan's definition - not any modern GRP boat, but only those which are primarily designed as family cruisers, have low ballast ratios and moderate rigs. And are white, obviously. Like almost all Bavs, most Bennies and Jennies, Hanses, etc. Scandiwegians escape AWBism, no X-boats, HRs, etc. And definitely no Arconas.

The other related forum TLA is MAB, a Manky Auld Boat, essentially anything into its third decade or more, which has not quite been kept in concours d'elegance condition.

 

[Ubergeekian]

AWB means average white boat, forum slang for a modern GRP boat, rather than an old classic (which are often GRP anyway! )

I've always though of it as Anonymous White Boat, on the basis that from more then, ooh, two or three feet away they all look the same these days.

 

[PeterC]

The difference between the current volume manufacturers and the more traditonal manufacturers is vast; a great deal more than I had appreciated. We chartered a Beneteau 54 this year from Moorings. It was more than pleasant and the perfect charter yacht. In an ideal world would I want to live on board for a year - almost certainly not. Would I want to cross an ocean or two in one - I would, but I would prefer not too.

Cost aside, there is no comparison between these and Moodys, IP's, Discovery, the Swedes, and Oysters. If you really believe there is a level field go from one to the other on the same day, you will not need any more convincing.

If you want a yacht to live aboard in comfort comparable with a small flat, of the quality to still look good after more than a few weeks of continuous use, and with the ability to travel long distances with little concern that the yacht will outlast you I have come to conclusion that the selection is limited to Oysters, HRs, Contests, IPs, Discoverys and perhaps one or two other types. Anything older than 8 years will almost certainly require a lot of updating - electronics have moved on enormously in that time, sails will be old and tired, etc.

Purchasing a yacht abroad sounds all very well but you had better have time, money and knowledge on your side. It sounds good in theory but there are survey's to organise, contracts and local customs to be understood, deals to be negotiated etc. If you set aside two to three weeks to buy a yacht in say Trinidad you would be doing well - and it probably would not be much different in Spain. Get it worng and you could end up with problems to last you for a very long time.

Amoung the quality manufacturers so much comes down to style. You either love or hate HRs. They come from the another and very traditional era. Oysters, Contest and Discovery are very similiar in style. Personally I am not convinced there is a great deal between them other than price. At one end Moody represents the best value for money from a traditional British builder (well 4 or 5 years ago) and at the other Swan and Oyster represent quality at a price where I suspect at least some percentage of the cost is paying for little more than the brand name much as when you purchase a Nike shirt.

As others have said any of these will look after you, will provide luxurious comfort (as much as any yacht of this size), will look good and will be reliable once any niggles have been sorted. Even the best of these fit equipment that is not the best it seems to me. Gensets are a good example. There may be attractions to the manufacturer of fitting one or other of the higher rev. models but for longevity and reliability the list is vastly different.

In short if you want and can afford a yacht form one of the "premium" manufacturers I think it comes down to the yacht in which you feel most comfortable. After all if you are going to spend weeks on the thing you may as well feel at home, so why buy a Swan if it is not your thing - unless that is you value being able to say I own a Swan more than I own a yacht that I love to bits, and it jsut happens to be a

Having actually recently been through the process that is my six pence worth anyway. Ask me in five years time if I have got it right and I will let you know.

Having spent many a happy hour reading this forum (and it is very good indeed) I think there are many contributors who base their experience on very different yachts - the typical 30 to 40 footer that is perfect for weekend sailing and on which I know many live aboard for much longer periods is a very different animal form a 45 to 55 yacht which can still comfortably be handled by two and yet is in a very different class of comfort. I have no doubt 55+ foot is again yet another animal and I gather is the starting point for employing crew - a world of which I know nothing.

Someone commented earleir that expect the running costs to be around 10% of value a year. I am not sure where that comes from but unless that includes depreciation in real terms I think it is very wide of the mark. Does anyone find they spend that much?

 

[morsimon]

What did you buy ?

Having actually recently been through the process that is my six pence worth anyway. Ask me in five years time if I have got it right and I will let you know.

Thanks for your well thought out contribution - so what did you buy - are you an HR man ?