Don't laugh - AWB or Swan !

[Sybarite]

<<Oyster doesn't work for me - found their young staff at SIBS unacceptably snotty and was totally ignored by their sales staff when finally allowed onboard one of their boats at the SIBS - eventually walked off after 20 minutes of trying to get an interview with their sales staff who were too busy talking amongst themselves - unbelievable ! In the present economic climate they deserve to go under for the total lack of sales acumen they displayed.>>

I was shopping for a bigger boat at one time and just happened to board one that was in fact beyond my means; who doesn't at a show? I had to give contact details too.

Some time later I got a call from a sales rep, very friendly, asking me various questions. He asked me eventually what boat I had at present. When I replied, "Feeling 920" he hung up on the spot without a further word...

One may choose a smaller boat for various reasons other than financial. Do you think that they would get a look-in in a future purchase or a recommendation from me for somebody else?

 

[Sybarite]

Lovely brochure blue seas and sunny skies. However sailing isn't always like that. To be realistic think of a night watch with a howling gale and rain lashing down. It happens too. Where are you going to drive your boat from?

Personally being fed up with being frozen and wet I have vowed that my next boat will have adequate weather shelter; eg a boat with a dog house. Some may say that you can stay under shelter and steer with an autopilot but it's always when the conditions are worst - where the AP is not up to the job - that you have to take the helm.

 

[mike_bryon]

I tried hard to buy a Swan 65 from 1972 and I would be sitting on it now had they accepted my best offer – every spare penny I had at the time! I bought something else for half the offer price and have done everything I planned to do with the Swan.

I say buy the Swan provided you are happy with the company in those circles. Sailing a very smart boat means you meet lots of seriously well to do types and fewer ordinary sailing folk.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Its called 'customer service' or a lack of it.
I am the customer - if I get ignored why the hell should I give them my business ? They are one of a number of quality builders in a competitive marketplace. They spend a fortune on 'marketing' and then get it all wrong when a potential client first comes into direct contact with the company. With this experience I am not deciding where I am going to spend the money but I am making a decision about where I will NOT be spending it. Your incredulity surprises me.

PS - when you board the Oyster you need to give them your contact details including email etc - I duly did so and have not heard a word from them since. I work in a service industry - if my company presented as poor an impression as Oyster have done then we would be out of business and my present dilemma would not exist as I would be broke.

In Sales Management parlance, it is called qualification of opportunities - out of xx thousands of people at the show, who is seriously likely to move forward on a purchase of any boat? Even if it is as high 1%, they are still looking at 1000 prospects. If they get 10-20 good firm orders they will be delighted.

Premium brands get a very high proportion of 'if we win the lottery' viewers who are mere suspects, not prospects. Working out who is serious is part of the salesperson's role - they are bound to get a few wrong. They should be forgiven for thinking that somebody comparing a 900k Swan to a 400k AWB is serious.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I tried hard to buy a Swan 65 from 1972 and I would be sitting on it now had they accepted my best offer – every spare penny I had at the time! I bought something else for half the offer price and have done everything I planned to do with the Swan.

I say buy the Swan provided you are happy with the company in those circles. Sailing a very smart boat means you meet lots of seriously well to do types and fewer ordinary sailing folk.

I'm reminded of an owner who said "If I really wanted a Rolex watch, I'd buy one, instead of trying to win one at a Swan Regatta."

 

[morsimon]

Sybarite - My experience is wholly limited to chartering in the Med so blue seas and sunny skies neatly sums up my sailing experience - I realise I have a lot to learn......but hopefully plenty of time to do so.

I have some friends in Portgual so thinking of taking a mooring in either Portimao or Lagos; alternatively Majorca or possibly Marina Di Scarlino on the Tuscan coast.

Other than joining the ARC and possibly then extending my stay in the Caribbean for a while my intention would be to use the boat for extended holidays and weekends with friends and family in the Med - hence my aversion to centre cockpits.

 

[nimbusgb]

Benneteau 50's were designed by Bruce Farr, an adequate pedigree!

With the money you have disposable I'd look further afield its part of the fun.

Get aboard an Amel 54 at least.

There are a few Farr 65's for sale, a couple of years old but superb boats. there was one in Corfu 2 years ago, centre cockpit, bridge deck, all flush hatches, cutter rig that I would quite happily rob a bank for and at about 2/3 your budget.

Recently aboard a 85' boat from one of the big name manufacturers at the luxury end of the price scale the list of faults, errors and major omissions related by the skipper was scary.

 

[morsimon]

They should be forgiven for thinking that somebody comparing a 900k Swan to a 400k AWB is serious.

How would they know ?

My point was that I didnt like the snooty attitude of the bouncers on the shore and the guys who should have at least made an effort to engage with me were too busy chatting amongst themselves. I do accept that only a small percentage of the tourists who go and look at these boats are serious - I still think my criticisms are well-founded and my experience has definitely coloured my view of Oyster. We all come about our prejudices legitimately.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

... my intention would be to use the boat for extended holidays and weekends with friends and family in the Med - hence my aversion to centre cockpits.

I dont get this, Morsimon Centre cockpit usually means large aft cabins and accommodation, which is ideal for use as a holiday home.

Sorry if you think I am picking on you Morsimon, I am trying to give you objective comments to help you consider all factors in your decision.

 

[doris]

I have reasonable experience of 2 swans. A 53 and a 40. Both grossly over-engineered and both having ongoing, never ending maintenance problems. The 40 has had only1 trouble free season in 10 years.
Talking to very eminent broker, who sells a lot of swans, the other day and the comment was made that a significant number of swan owners are selling and buying Hanse, Benateau etc. Top designers and the same deck gear plus loads of cash in the bank. Better reliability as a bonus.
I wouldn't touch a swan with a bargepole.

 

[morsimon]

I dont get this, Morsimon Centre cockpit usually means large aft cabins and accommodation, which is ideal for use as a holiday home.

Sorry if you think I am picking on you Morsimon, I am trying to give you objective comments to help you consider all factors in your decision.

I dont think you are picking on me at all ! I just assumed your snide remark in your previous post reflected your usual approach. Happy for you to prove me wrong.

In warmer climes (in my experience) it can be pleasant to spend time in the cockpit with friends especially during the balmy evenings - I would prefer to have more space there rather than to be constrained by the generally limited dimensions of a centre cockpit. I also prefer a design with the master cabin forward (I believe this is common in the Med) and brighter / lighter saloon both of which are better afforded by an aft cockpit design.

I also thought that centre cockpits were preferred more for vessels which sail regularly offshore ? Given the extra weather protection and safety they afford the crew - I have already said I have no great desire to sail offshore for any length of time - other than the fact I would like to go transatlantic at least once and many aft cockpit boats do this very successfully, I believe.

Your objective comments are welcomed.

 

[morsimon]

I have reasonable experience of 2 swans. A 53 and a 40. Both grossly over-engineered and both having ongoing, never ending maintenance problems. The 40 has had only1 trouble free season in 10 years.
Talking to very eminent broker, who sells a lot of swans, the other day and the comment was made that a significant number of swan owners are selling and buying Hanse, Benateau etc. Top designers and the same deck gear plus loads of cash in the bank. Better reliability as a bonus.
I wouldn't touch a swan with a bargepole.

Thanks

Well, I didnt expect to hear that ! Hope MoodyNick has read your post as he seems to think that the Oyster guys were entirely correct in ignoring me for having the audacity to mention a Swan and an AWB in the same post !

Have to say though that the market is not exactly awash with reasonably modern Swan 53's for sale - I know of only one which is in the hands of your friend the eminent broker I think.

 

[photodog]

Thanks

Well, I didnt expect to hear that ! Hope Moodynick has read your post as he seems to think that the Oyster guys were entirely correct in ignoring me for have the audacity to mention a Swan and an AWB in the same post !

Have to say though that the market is not exactly awash with reasonably modern Swan 53's for sale - I know of only one which is in the hands of your friend the eminent broker I think.

Those comments dont surprise me at all.....

1) Volume production manufacturing tends towards products of greater reliability than low volume hand built equivilant.

2) The more you spend, the greater the dissapointment when things go wrong...

This last is especially important IMHO... The expectations of a buyer rise in direct proportion (I would submit) with price... however quality and reliability does not..

There have been several examples on these fora of folks who have spent enormous amounts of money on boats... to be sorely dissapointed in the end.

A Swan may be a nicer yacht... but It is arguable as to if it is better... If you have no intention of doing some hard core long distance offshore craziness... then why spend the money on something which you will not need....

I like the sounds of that x yacht... or maybe a Grand Soliel

 

[SimbaDog]

Great forum -many thanks for your replies

I definitely dont want a Cat

Bliss - looks nice but slightly below my lux and space requirements




I am comparing a 3 year old Swan with a newbuild fully laden AWB what is unrealistic about the comparison ? It is what it is. Of course I could go for an older Swan but to find one at circa £400 I would have to go older than 10 years and that brings in wear and tear and more importantly system obsolecence issues which I really dont want - as we all know technology has advanced in leaps and bounds in the last 10 years.

I agree that buying a secondhand JenBavBen probably makes sense and to use that as a 'learner' before committing to a more expensive investment.

What does surprise me is the asking prices for secondhand premium marque yachts - maybe the owners are just optimistic / unrealistic in their pricing ? I am also surprised at the relative lack of supply - maybe exisiting owners are not ordering new replacements at the moment and preferring to hang on to their existing boats ?

Oyster doesn't work for me - found their young staff at SIBS unacceptably snotty and was totally ignored by their sales staff when finally allowed onboard one of their boats at the SIBS - eventually walked off after 20 minutes of trying to get an interview with their sales staff who were too busy talking amongst themselves - unbelievable ! In the present economic climate they deserve to go under for the total lack of sales acumen they displayed.

Amel / HR / Naiad are a bit staid for my tastes (with apologies to any owners reading this) I would like something with the 'x factor' which Swans appear to have to my eyes anyway.

I've been refused boarding on Oysters twice at boat shows They shouldn't judge potential buyers by what they are wearing

 

[BrianH]

Lovely brochure blue seas and sunny skies. However sailing isn't always like that. To be realistic think of a night watch with a howling gale and rain lashing down. It happens too. Where are you going to drive your boat from?
Personally being fed up with being frozen and wet I have vowed that my next boat will have adequate weather shelter; eg a boat with a dog house.

It took me 40 years of sailing - racing and cruising - and to reach the age of 70 before the light dawned and I came to that very same conclusion.

Of course, my eventual choice of the only motor-sailor that Hallberg-Rassey ever made, the HR94, is not going to quicken the pulse of most of you here but there are good performance yachts with pilot or dog houses. Even though I sail in the Med., I bless the day I opted for a sheltered steering position - from rain, spray, wind and ... yes, sun.

After all, most yachts I see under way have some sort of canvas/perspex cockpit protection - including bimini, seems daft to me not to have it permanent, substantial and secure.

 

[jamesjermain]

For your first boat, a 55 footer is big and a will be a handful, even assuming you have a good crew and the boat is well set up for short handed sailing. The Swans are racers or cruiser racers with big, high performance rigs, deep keels and decks usually laid out for large crews. The accommodation similarly tends to be designed for racing crews and although the quality of built is excellent the accommodation layout is not always ideal for a husband and wife with or without family and friends.

Jenbenbavs are designed for family cruising and, although less bespoke and hand finished, are built for the job. In particular, because of the charter market influence, ventilation and all fresco living is specifically catered for. HalNajMalSwe boats as well as Arconas, CRs and other (eg Wauquiez from France, Discovery and Oyster from Britain) are top quality and designed for short handed cruising.

For your first cruising boat I would recommend you look a bit smaller (say 40 to 45ft, 50ft max) and second hand. After two or three seasons you will have learned a lot, both about sailing biggish boats and what sort of sailing, and therefore type of boat, you really want. In this context the BenJenBav brigade have a lot to offer. On the other hand you are clearly a man of discernment who wants something a bit above average so an HR, Najad or Malo might suit you better.

I would not recommend a big Swan as a first cruising boat under any circumstances although after a few years you may decide that really is want you want.

 

[BrianH]

In Sales Management parlance, it is called qualification of opportunities - out of xx thousands of people at the show, who is seriously likely to move forward on a purchase of any boat? Even if it is as high 1%, they are still looking at 1000 prospects. If they get 10-20 good firm orders they will be delighted.

Premium brands get a very high proportion of 'if we win the lottery' viewers who are mere suspects, not prospects. Working out who is serious is part of the salesperson's role - they are bound to get a few wrong. They should be forgiven for thinking that somebody comparing a 900k Swan to a 400k AWB is serious.

I used to spend a lot of time once a year on my company's stand at CeBIT where the cheapest of our range of products for financial institutions started at about what I earned in a year.

Never would I let a visitor to our stand not be courteously greeted with a question if there were any questions or if we could demonstrate anything. Sometimes we had to prioritise based on fairly obvious tyre-kickers or competitors, but we would never stand around ignoring anyone or chatting together, such as Morsimon experienced. Of course he should look elsewhere before considering such a company.

 

[rallyveteran]

...we would never stand around ignoring anyone or chatting together, such as Morsimon experienced. Of course he should look elsewhere before considering such a company.

But if my requirements were the same as Morsimon's, and I had never been ignored at a boat show, presumably I could have an Oyster on my list. Where's the logic in that? The product is the same for both of us, but one had a better sales experience than the other.

If the question was which company would I buy shares in, I can see that salesmen who are offputting might be relevant, but if all I am after is the product they are selling surely I should do my best to overcome the salesman hurdle.

And as Oyster recently changed hands for something like 40 million they are obviously not upsetting all their potential customers so extrapolating from "their salesmen ignored me" to a view of the worth of the company as a whole, or its products, may not be reliable.

 

[Erik C]

You mentioned your wife is not a keen sailor. My wife wasn't either but I thought cruising the Bahamas would bring her around. She didn't so I ended up selling my 50ft beauty at a great financial loss. Boats are easy to find, good wives are not.

 

[emsworthy]

In Sales Management parlance, it is called qualification of opportunities - out of xx thousands of people at the show, who is seriously likely to move forward on a purchase of any boat? Even if it is as high 1%, they are still looking at 1000 prospects. If they get 10-20 good firm orders they will be delighted.

Premium brands get a very high proportion of 'if we win the lottery' viewers who are mere suspects, not prospects. Working out who is serious is part of the salesperson's role - they are bound to get a few wrong. They should be forgiven for thinking that somebody comparing a 900k Swan to a 400k AWB is serious.

Agree with all of the above but there is simply no justification for the air of superiority that some sales staff exude when faced with a punter of unknown provenance. Said punter of course knows the salesman couldn't remotely afford the boat they are both stood on (he wouldn't be spending 10 hours a day for 2 weeks showing tyre-kickers around a boat if he could!), whereas the salesman doesn't know whether he is addressing the Duke of Westminster or someone who pushes a broom for a living! Hard though it is surely the best sales people are those who assume nothing and treat every contact as a chance to sell the brand if not the boat.

I bought four BMWs in a row, when I actually wanted to buy an Audi each time, but the dealers who are practically next door to each other couldn't have been more different. The BMW dealer treated me like royalty and the Audi dealer looked at me as if I was something he'd stepped in and went back to discussing what options he was going to have on his next company car!