Don't laugh - AWB or Swan !

[morsimon]

After many years of hard graft I am lucky enough to be approaching early retirement and am more than financially secure. Having bareboated in the Med for several years I am now thinking of acquiring my own yacht.

Useage would primarily be Med and I have no problem with marina hopping (it is all the sailing I have really done, so far !). I like my creature comforts and space. My ideal yacht would be a 3 cabin 50-55ft - most of my bareboats have been in 51ft Moorings with my family - my wife is not a keen sailor. I believe I am a reasonably competent sailor - Coastal Skipper practical and Yachtmaster theory. In common with many others I would like to participate in the proverbial ARC at some time in the next 3 years and possibly then do a season in the Windies before shipping the boat home. I have no desire to utilise a professional skipper.

My dilemma is this - I could buy a Swan 53 (beautiful looking and with a fantastic sailing pedigree) and assuming I went for a 3/4 year old model, so that all the original gremlins have been well-sorted, this would cost me circa £900K. Alternatively I could buy a brand new BenJenBav of a similar size (which will actually be more commodious and arguably more superficially 'luxurious') for less than £400K and that would be fully loaded with lots of goodies and upgrades.

£500k is a massive price differential - I have no intention of becoming a fulltime liveaboard although I could see myself spending a month at a time onboard during the summer, otherwise it will be for use with friends and family on weekly and weekend trips.

I do appreciate the craftsmanship of the Swan and aesthetcially it would win any contest hands down. I also realise it would be a dramatically better boat to have in difficult conditions but I am still struggling to justify the extra cost.

If I went for a 3 cabin Jeanneau / Beneteau am I making a huge mistake ? Is the Swan really worth the extra money and will I live to regret not having the experience of owning and sailing such a world-renowned yacht ? Would I be capable of appreciating its capabilites ? I am not a racer and never wish to be one. Is the Jeanneau up to doing a transatlantic crossing in reasonable safety and comfort - many others do it but are they wise ?

I know the depreciation argument but that is not really a major consideration here and actually I think from a purely financial perspective the Jeanneau will end up costing me significantly less money even if I sell in 3 years time.

I appreciate this is a lovely dilemma to have and I am not expecting many expressions of sympathy but any sound advice / guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[johnalison]

If you divide your sums by ten, you are in a similar position to me ten years ago. We made the choice of going for a new Swedish-built boat which has given us great pleasure, being comfortable aboard and rewarding to sail. If sailing qualities matter to you, the choice is easy. If you want a boat just to live in, then you can choose otherwise. A piece of advice given to me 35 years ago was "always buy a boat from a top designer" and in retrospect I think it is true.

 

[capnsensible]

Something else to factor in..... tradition says you will spend around 10% of the purchase figure per year in running the vessel.

Thats a tidy sum on a high value yacht.

I have a friend with a Jen 54 and I must say he is very happy with his choice.

 

[sarabande]

Don't go for new for your first purchase. Your experience over the first couple of years will make you want to change and you will be an experienced big yacht owner and know what you want.

There are lots and lots of other quality boats available in that range of the lower figure, and it seems the market is pretty much in favour of the purchaser at present.

Oyster
Halberg Rassey
Island Packet
Trintella
Moody
...

Are you sure, absolutely sure that you don't want a cat ?

Why not contact one of the big brokers on the forum, and take them out for a decent meal, and chat through the market ?

 

[zarathustra]

A piece of advice given to me 35 years ago was "always buy a boat from a top designer" and in retrospect I think it is true.

don't Jenn and Ben used well respected designers? Most reviews I read of BenJenBav are positive. I do think some of the Swedish builders are taking the p with the prices.

 

[phantomlady]

My 30 year old Ben was designed by German Frers!

 

[davidej]

Its all about your attitude to money

Is a Swan superior to an AWB. On most criteria - yes. Is it twice as good - no.

Do you want value for money or the best irrespective of price -its up to you!

Most motoring correspondents rate the Mondeo as the best all round middle size car. But many spend twice as much to get the exclusivity of an Audi or Beema.

'you pays your money and you takes your choice'.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I've sailed lots of older Swans, but no recent ones. And yes there is (was) some indefinable extra quality about them and great for cruising or crewed-up racing, as well as a bullet-proof feeling. One thing to worry about with a Swan that size is draft. Tends to be on the high side and might restrict some of the places you can go.

OTOH, today I'd be looking at Bliss which is fully loaded, as car salesmen say.

 

[DownWest]

I think you really need to understand what you want from a boat, before spending serious sum on your choice.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Personnally I wouldnt buy either - its not a realistic comparison.

You could quite easily buy an older Swan, or one of many similar, for your £400k and spend a few bob fitting her out. You will end up with a better boat, and having spent a lot less than 900k.

 

[Sybarite]

Welcome to the forum :

Some considerations:

Present plans are for the Med and transatlantic; any ambitions to do "expedition - high latitude sailing"?

Are they good (= manageable) downwind boats for Trade Wind crossings?

To paraphrase Michel Joubert French naval architect, "If you are going on longer distances do you want to have a heavily canvassed boat where you are constantly tweaking the sails or having to reef them, when, by sacrificing half a knot, you can have a boat that virtually looks after itself?"

(http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/cha...-marthe-46-voilier-exploration-joubert-nivelt)

Do you expect to sail in shoal waters (eg The Bahamas) where the draft of a Swan 53' might be a source of concern? (Consider a Southerly, Garcia or Ovni centreboarders)

Do you want to visit smaller fishing port type harbours ? Frequently they cannot accommodate boats that big.

What will your typical crew be? If only 2 and your wife is not that experienced, 51' could be a handful in a marina - especilly if there is wind.

If you have a particular Med base in mind do they have marina capacity for that length?

If reliability and comfort are your criteria, as well as being frequently short-handed, my choice would be an Amel 54. (www.amel.fr). You could start off with a previous generation 53' Super Maramu to test the concept. Swans are lovely but not the same weather protection.

Good luck but then you appear to have it already ...!!

 

[sighmoon]

It sounds like your retirement savings will be enough to see you through, whichever you choose, so get the one your heart is set on. If this were an entirely logical process you'd be buying neither.

The extra is for attention to detail, super strong construction, and speed. Plus, you can customise the layout if you want to.

Personally, whenever I've seen a Swan, I've thought 'there goes one fortunate man', and when I've seen a big AWB, I've thought 'there goes a charter yacht'.

 

[Slowtack]

For that money you could have three perfectly good boats in different places - summer all year round

 

[Sybarite]

It's another approach. When has boat owning ever been logical?

 

[morsimon]

Great forum -many thanks for your replies

I definitely dont want a Cat

Bliss - looks nice but slightly below my lux and space requirements

Personnally I wouldnt buy either - its not a realistic comparison.

You could quite easily buy an older Swan, or one of many similar, for your £400k and spend a few bob fitting her out. You will end up with a better boat, and having spent a lot less than 900k.

I am comparing a 3 year old Swan with a newbuild fully laden AWB what is unrealistic about the comparison ? It is what it is. Of course I could go for an older Swan but to find one at circa £400 I would have to go older than 10 years and that brings in wear and tear and more importantly system obsolecence issues which I really dont want - as we all know technology has advanced in leaps and bounds in the last 10 years.

I agree that buying a secondhand JenBavBen probably makes sense and to use that as a 'learner' before committing to a more expensive investment.

What does surprise me is the asking prices for secondhand premium marque yachts - maybe the owners are just optimistic / unrealistic in their pricing ? I am also surprised at the relative lack of supply - maybe exisiting owners are not ordering new replacements at the moment and preferring to hang on to their existing boats ?

Oyster doesn't work for me - found their young staff at SIBS unacceptably snotty and was totally ignored by their sales staff when finally allowed onboard one of their boats at the SIBS - eventually walked off after 20 minutes of trying to get an interview with their sales staff who were too busy talking amongst themselves - unbelievable ! In the present economic climate they deserve to go under for the total lack of sales acumen they displayed.

Amel / HR / Naiad are a bit staid for my tastes (with apologies to any owners reading this) I would like something with the 'x factor' which Swans appear to have to my eyes anyway.

 

[dt4134]

Amel / HR / Naiad are a bit staid for my tastes (with apologies to any owners reading this) I would like something with the 'x factor' which Swans appear to have to my eyes anyway.

Not helping your dilemma one bit, but have you thought about the Discovery 55 as an alternative. http://www.discoveryyachts.com/

 

[morsimon]

Not helping your dilemma one bit, but have you thought about the Discovery 55 as an alternative. http://www.discoveryyachts.com/

Thanks - yes I have but found their deck saloon configuration a little claustrophobic - other than that I thought it was a fantastic boat and their sales team were the exact opposite of the Oyster people. I love their larger Discovery but too much for me ie too much boat and too much dosh !

 

[Tranona]

From a utilitarian point of view - that is what will be capable of undertaking your planned project then there is no contest, it has to be a mass produced boat. Just have a look at how the ARC entry has changed over the years with now (arguably) the majority of entrants are mass produced boats.

You can have everything new and exactly how you want (although this in itself can create problems of getting it sorted) and have a boat that is more easily saleable when you have finished. Of course if you like that extra little bit, exclusivity aand so on go for the Swan - although as you have found actually buying one is not easy and you will always have somebody elses cast off.

I am in a similar position, owning a Bavaria. I would love an HR and could afford to buy one, but find it difficult to justify something at more than twice the price that functionally will do very little more. It is the huge difference in price with little loss in functionality that has made mass produced boats so popular.

 

[Resolution]

Most of us on this forum can only dream of a fifty foot yacht, so you won't be getting much actual experience in your feedback. From a more economical perspective my comments would be:
1. Mainstream AWBs like the Sun Odyssey 54 are probably just as well-made as low volume luxury yachts in respect of engineered stuff like hulls, engines and deck gear.
2. They lose out on interiors and the craftsman touches that cost a bomb - and would probably give you as owner real pride in your yacht.
3. I agree with several posters that it is essential that the yacht suits the conditions in which you will be sailing - hot climate etc.
4. Almost every new yacht needs de-bugging. The more kit, the more to sort out. Know your capabilities to work through this sometimes stressful stage. Maybe employ an experienced yachtsman to help do this.

Adding it all up - go for something that will give you most pleasure. Maybe not a Swan, but something with quality kit and a bit distinctive!

 

[Seven Spades]

In your position I would buy the XC45. It is the boat that ticks every box. Brilliant performance - comfort - 3 cabins - 2 heads - proper sail locker. Weight distribution is all under the cabin sole so fuel, water and batteries are all low down in the centre of the yacht. It is a quality Danish construction and you will get change from £500K.

Buy the above and you can have your cake and eat it.