Does this worry those of you who keep boats in spain?

Re: Pardon?

The answer is in your first para. "Foreign" customs authorities have no jurisdiction over VAT and a UK boat. It is solely a matter for UK Revenue. Therefore once you have established that your boat is owned by a UK resident and is located in the UK they can do nothing. So they will "go away" when they see UK passports, UK registration (with all its limitations) and a Bill of Sale showing the transfer of ownership between two private UK/EU citizens. Of course a VAT invoice may make them go away quicker, but there are thousands of boats that do not have this.

Channel Islands boats are different because they are clearly not EU if they are registered in the Channel Islands and all the other paperwork is Channel Islands. If, however a UK resident subsequently took a VAT paid boat to the Islands, he may have difficulty in persuading EU authorities that VAT had been paid without an invoice, but probably not imposssible, particularly if there were good records of continuous use in the EU and a bill of sale showing purchase in the EU.

Anyway, Customs boats are not there to deal with VAT - it would indeed be a waste of public money. They are there to protect us from all the other nasty goings on such as drug dealing and human trafficking.
 
Re: Apologies for repeating myself, but...

Consider the following scenarios.
1 My boat was purchased from a Greek dealer and I paid VAT in Greece. It has never been in the UK, but is on the SSR
ok fair enough no problem here

2 If instead of keeping the boat in Greece I could have exported it to Croatia or Turkey and not paid the VAT. It would still Be a british registered ship.
Yes sure and it will still remain VAT Paid in there, but if you take it there ex TAX non of these countries can oblige you to pay VAT

3 If I subsequently wanted to bring it into the EU I would have to pay VAT in the first state of entry, which could for arguments sake be Italy. It would still be a British registered ship.
No if the flag is still British and you have the VAT Receipt, if you want a flag outside the EU with VAT Paid Status before this is lost

4 As I have paid the VAT I can take it to Turkey or Croatia for a period of time and bring it back into the EU without paying VAT again. It is still a British registered ship.
Yes

5 If, however, I sell it to somebody in Turkey and the new owner wants to bring it into the EU he will have to pay VAT. If he qualifies by residency (in the UK) he could register it as a British ship, but would still have to pay VAT
Depends the flag, if the flag changes to a non EU country Yes, if he keeps it British registered it is no

Now consider I won the lottery and treated myself to a nice new Oyster to sail around the Caribbean. I could register it as a British ship, export it VAT free to Antigua, use it (subject to any local regulations) for as long as I liked. If, however, I wanted to bring it into the EU I would have to pay VAT, probably after a lengthy discussion with the revenue on value!
You export to Antigua VAT free as you say, so you never paid VAT

So, you see all these different scenarios in respect of VAT but ALWAYS the boat is registered in the UK.
Now the court was a lengthy one but I can say the judgement said that the real nation of the boat is its flag, and not its position as I said. Being the boat in question from London UK registration EU went to a Gibraltar flag non EU, therefore exported its VAT certificate was not valid and was so determined as a non Tax paid boat
the French owner and his lawyers came in with a similar argument to yours, saying the boat was Italian build and moved from Italy to France and Mallorca the most, that is never out of EU harbours so the VAT receipt was still valid, needless to say they where both wrong owner and lawyer
 
Re: Pardon?

A boat does not need to be registered in the Channel Islands, nor do the seller or purchaser have to be resident there, for it to be purchased there with no VAT. So a UK resident, can buy a British registered boat from another UK resident without paying VAT, then cruise it to England or France. If he was then stopped by customs, he would be able to show them UK passports, UK registration (with all its limitations) and a Bill of Sale showing the transfer of ownership between two private UK/EU citizens. The bill of sale does not indicate whether VAT was charged on the transaction.
 
Tranona, I don't really give a toss by which convention I'm navigating Spanish waters. For me it's simple. If the Spanish authorities choose to make my life in their country more difficult, I'll take my business elsewhere
And talking about conventions, it is convention for forumites to fill out their profiles
 
Re: Pardon?

[ QUOTE ]
for Mike F the Italian luxury tax, or better known as Tassa the Stazionamento was abolished in 2001 I think and has not been reinstated, and was for Italian citizens and Italian registered boats


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I didn't know it had gone. Must be something Berlusconi did, I guess?
 
Re: Pardon?

Tranona, I thought my post was clear. I don't care whether the Dutch police have jurisdiction over VAT or not. I don't want to ruin my holiday arguing with them whether they do or don't when I can make my life easier by simply acquiring a VAT invoice when I buy a used boat. Then, the police in other European countries can be a lot less reasonable than the Dutch police or our own HMRC. For example, I would definitely not want to get into an argument with the Spanish Guardia Civile over whether they had the right to demand proof of VAT payment
With regard to finance houses, IMHO they probably think the same as me. They don't want to run the risk, however small, that an asset over which they have a charge is impounded in a foreign country. Secondly, of course, whether a boat is VAT paid or not affects it's value so the presence or otherwise of proof of VAT payment assists in determining the value of the asset and hence how much they may be willing to lend against that asset
 
What a strange attitude. Guess if you treat the Spanish authorities with the same contempt as you seem to treat International Conventions you deserve what you get.

Filling in a profile is entirely optional. Who I am does not affect what I say when it is a reference to an International Convention.
 
Re: Pardon?

What you are saying is outside my knowledge, but if it were that easy and there are no restrictions on use in the EU, surely everybody would be doing it!
 
GSkip, thanks for the explanation but I still think there are plenty of 15m+ boats based in the Balearics which are offered for charter and I believe they do pay the matriculation tax. The company that handles my boat has a number of large boats available for charter and I know that the chap who runs the company does negotiate matriculation tax payments with the local authorities. I do believe though that 15m is a load line measurement not a loa measurement and that boats as large as the Princess 52 manage to avoid paying it
 
Re: Pardon?

I wasn't suggesting it's legal, only that it could be done, and there would be no way for a foreign tax authority to check up, and that's why they want to see the VAT invoice.
 
Re: Pardon?

if the authorities get to head over this it can very easily be solved IMO but the real problem for each country is that Registration Authorities dont have anything to do with TAX so like all Govermental it gets bananas
 
Tranona, we're obviously on different planets here. I don't know why you've introduced the concept of an international convention because it's just a red herring in relation to this discussion. I park my boat in Spain and make a significant contribution to the local economy by doing so. Therefore, I am a customer of the Spanish tourist industry and, as a customer I expect to be valued. If, by their actions, the Spanish authorities demonstrate that they do not value my contribution, I will take it elsewhere. It's nothing to do with contempt for the authorities there, it's just about a commercial relationship
Yup, filling in your profile is optional although over on this forum, it's considered polite to do so
 
No, I am afraid you are on a planet of your own construction. Your boat, if it is UK registered is allowed to enter Spanish territorial waters under the terms of the UN convention. Just because you seem to see yourself as a consumer of tourism (whatever that means) does not alter that fact. Spain is a sovereign state and subject to the terms of the UN convention it can impose any conditions it likes on what you can do with your boat in its territory. How can you describe your relationship as an alien individual with a sovereign state as "a commercial relationship"? I would love to see a court's reaction to that - in any country! I am sure that the Spanish authorities could not give a damn about your contribution. If you break their laws they will apply their penalty.

I seriously suggest that you read the RYA advice if you wish to stay within the law. There is nothing secret about it. Just read the summary in the Autumn edition of the RYA magazine, then you will know exactly where you stand in relation to using your boat in Spain. As the article says, and I have been trying to tell you, your rights of navigation are completely separate from any requirements to pay tax under Spanish law.

As to politeness - I am always polite, and when I make statements they are supported by facts, and where appropriate, references. If I express an opinion, which I sometimes do, then I make it very clear that it is my opinion and you can accept or reject it as you think fit.

As to my profile, I have had the good fortune to be well educated and learned only to make statements in public that are true. It also means that I have learned that recognition of law is more important than my own personal views.
 
Re: Apologies for repeating myself, but...

PY that is all quite wrong. There is no connection between flagging and VAT. On those facts, particularly item #5, the purchase of the boat by your italian client will not result in any VAT liability for your Italian client in an EU country. There is just no doubt at all about that.

So the lawyers in #7 are wrong. (Just cos they're "lawyers" it doesn't make 'em automatically right!). Ref item #9 you did not pursue the case you have set out in the British courts. No UK court will hear a case about what might happen to you IF you bought a boat, before you bought it. UK courts don't hear "what if" cases.

If you won in court then the facts must have been different from how you describe them. Give me the citation and I'll look it up. All VAT court cases (even the very lowest court, the "tribunal") are on the public record
 
Re: Pardon?

Once again, you are talking myths and maybes. Where is there any evidence that boats are being impounded in a "foreign country" because of non-payment of VAT?

If you can quote documented cases then maybe I will believe you. If not then I prefer the advice of HMRC that VAT on a British boat is solely the concern of HMRC - and I have seen no evidence that they have either impounded private boats or demanded payment of VAT except where they are required to under the regulations, which mainly means when a boat is imported into the EU.

So, please concentrate on what is real as there is plenty of legitimate legislation and regulations that you need to be aware of and comply with - as I am sure you do!
 
Re: Pardon?

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer the advice of HMRC that VAT on a British boat is solely the concern of HMRC

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with most, not all, or what you've written above but what (in this context) is a "British" boat. Other than flag (which has nothing to do with VAT) a boat doesn't have a nationality does it?
 
Re: Pardon?

Fine, Tranona, go and do your sailing wherever that may be in whatever that may be without a VAT invoice. I'll still carry my VAT invoice, thanks
 
Deleted User, Yes your absoluitly right I was generalising, probably due to my anoyance over the years re un licensed boats. Many seem to do it right and try and play by the rules. I get a bit peed off paying the authorities who seem to do better from chartering than I do. Regarding the water line length I'm shure your right here as well and to that point I came across a 20+m boat in Mahon who had even managed to register under the small ships registration using the rudder stock to bow exiting the water as the length which if pushed seems to be a satifactory way of coming by a more fitting length, We have a 55 fairline on our books fully coded and charter complient done this way.
 
Re: Apologies for repeating myself, but...

JFM you are right it was not as if
the French owner of the boat said the boat was VAT paid, my Italian client was saying it was not, the French owner went on to say that with what he had he never had problems in SOF, which I think he was not lying
going into head over this it was decided to go to court because of the deposit which the owner did not want to return back saying his boat was VAT paid
you are right when you say it is not really the flag that decides who pays VAT for them once you register it is Customs problems and they dont give a damn what happens, but the customs use the flag to check this, if they see that your flag is non EU and you change register to an EU flag you will have problems
my client could have risked how many people say here or how th French guy told him and may be he could have gone away with it till he resells the boat....

I agree with Deleted User if a country does not make me welcome why I should stay there whatever the rules of UN there is, Mike is not breaking the law he is just giving loads of cash and work to the Spanish community but if you make it a problem for him and his piers why bother and stay there....
 
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