Does this worry those of you who keep boats in spain?

Mike - I have found the RYA useful for UK related issues and given there is a lot of confusion even in Spain, I suppose we cannot expect too much from them in this regard.

Many of us are keeping an eye on this, I would welcome an answer to my previous question:

Has <span style="color:red"> ANYONE </span> participating in this forum, that have been resident in Spain for less than 183 days, ever been prosecuted and/or actually had to pay this tax?

If not, I expect this would give us some (but not total) comfort!
 
How can you say that? There is nothing there that is inconsistent with previous posts and sources. Difficult also to see why the RYA should be particularly bothered with a Spanish tax that is not specific to boats and only seems to affect people who are resident in Spain!

I also have difficulty with trying to draw any comparison with how boats are treated for tax purposes in the UK or indeed any other country. This is not an EU law, and is nothing to do with human rights. It is a Spanish law and they are surely entitled to have their own laws on taxes, just as we do in the UK. The fact that it seems both ill founded if it drives away tourists - although that may not bother them and unequally applied is irrelevant. The same applies to their boat registration and licencing requirements - they are entitled as a sovreign state to establish their own requirements.

However, they seem to allow non-residents otherwise "free" use of their territorial waters and land facilities without any tax or other conditions provided the owner stays non-resident. Seems pretty generous to me.
 
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However, they seem to allow non-residents otherwise "free" use of their territorial waters and land facilities without any tax or other conditions provided the owner stays non-resident. Seems pretty generous to me.

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Er, not really so generous when you consider it is a conditon of being an EU member state that you allow residents of other EU member states free and unencumbered visitation to your state.

We can move anywhere inside the EU uncharged and pay taxes in our state of residency only. This is a right.

What is not a right, is for member staes to levy unfair taxes or charges on residents of other EU states. Spain are not the only country to flout the rules, but when it comes to penalising other EU nationals (land grab as one example) they seem to be very deft at it, and dont seem to give a fig about the EU law.
 
For boats it is absolutely nothing to do with the EU as far as navigation in coastal waters is concerned. That is covered by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. See the RYA magazine Autumn 2008 pages 17-19 for a neat summary or the website for more details. Once you have read that you will understand that there are very strict limits on what a foreign flagged vessel can do when in the territorial waters of another Coastal State. However, most states allow you to do more than the Convention requires.

As to the tax part, I have seen nothing that suggests the Spanish are applying this tax to boats owned by non residents for tax purposes. I think the problem arises when people go to Spain to live in the sun and then discover that by doing so they become tax resident. In this thread we have seen the expression "getting away with it" used to refer to individuals who may be liable for Spanish tax, but so far have not paid it. I guess there are many of them because of the difficulty for the authorities in finding them and enforcing the law - assuming there is a will to do so in the first place.

So, please keep the rights of foreign flagged vessels separate from asset taxes - there is no connection.
 
the Spain burocracy machine against UK nationals have been going since the 80s, what I am surprised as at today is to still see the ammount of boats from Brits there placed there
I think a 50% share of boats there are of British if not more
after all this I am still surprised at how much Brits choose Spain over other EU countries who are much more welcoming IMO
1) you still need a plane to go there
2) it is bloody expensive
3) nice but IMO few cruising grounds are special
for the same money I prefare France, Italy
want better crusing ground I would choose Croatia or Greece...
leave them do the taxes they want instead of complaining one should just move on and if this happens in mass you would see how all the taxes will be removed after a period....
 
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Imagine you was really really rich

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I suppose then that 12% tax is not going to worry you /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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However, they seem to allow non-residents otherwise "free" use of their territorial waters and land facilities without any tax or other conditions provided the owner stays non-resident. Seems pretty generous to me.

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Doesn't seem v generous to me when you consider how much money non resident boat owners put into the local Spanish economy. If I tot up all the money I spend in Spain in terms of berthing fees, fuel, maintenance, car hire, eating out and spending in local shops, I bet it's not far short of €40k per year. Now if the Spanish want to hit me with a 12% tax on my boat, then I'd happily take my €40k to France or Italy
 
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How can you say that? There is nothing there that is inconsistent with previous posts and sources. Difficult also to see why the RYA should be particularly bothered with a Spanish tax that is not specific to boats and only seems to affect people who are resident in Spain!

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My comment is and still is about the RYA's inability to provide advice.

In all the places that I've read, matriculation and wealth tax are considered different. In my view matriculation is a sort of import duty and has nothing to do with wealth. Read the links in this thread - they are quite specific and the RYA seem to me to have completely the wrong end of the stick.

And as far as not being particularly relavent to Spain, as a paying member of the RYA, i say, if they are going to comment on something - it should be accurate.
 
Pardon?

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they arent in the EU - so keeping your boat there for any length of time would mean it looses its VAT paid status

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The RYA are surely not qualified to advise on this subject.

This story has been doing the rounds of English language papers in Spain and the Telegraph seem to just be repeating it.

The 12% tax applies when a Spanish resident registers a boat.

A Spanish resident is someone who resides in Spain for over 182 days in a year. They are then liable to pay all taxes levied by Spain on their worldwide income, their wealth and any other taxes which apply to a tax resident. There is no choice, it all depends on the length of time spent in the country.

I am now tax resident in France, so needed to check these things out carefully.

I would suggest that the easiest way to prove that you have not overstayed would be to keep something like a creditcard statement which would show your location throughout the year.
 
I don't think you can call matriculation tax a kind of import duty as it's paid by any Spanish tax resident on a new boat purchase over 7.5m in Spain registered under the Spanish flag. IMHO it's a kind of wealth tax levied on boat owners because they happen to be wealthy enough to afford to buy a boat. What hasn't been mentioned so far is that I believe that matriculation tax is also payable by foreign residents offering their boats for charter if the length of the boat exceeds 15m(?) although I believe the length measurement is a load line measurement not overall length. I guess the reason for this is that by offering your boat for charter in Spain you are engaging in a taxable commercial operation in Spain
The concept of a tax on wealth as opposed to income is quite popular in some European countries (eg Italy) presumably because concealing income is a kind of national pastime in these countries
 
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I would suggest that the easiest way to prove that you have not overstayed would be to keep something like a creditcard statement which would show your location throughout the year.

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What an excellent idea, I was wondering how to do it since I tend to destroy plane ticket stubs etc.
 
Re: Pardon?

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they arent in the EU - so keeping your boat there for any length of time would mean it looses its VAT paid status

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Also /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif A boat never loses its VAT paid status, as long as the audit trail of paperwork is retained, AFAIK. Anybody differ?
 
Mike
I thought I read somewhere that other imports into Spain were "matriculated" - cars for example. It seems to me that items that are imported have to have the matriculation tax paid on them - this was my thinking behind me considering it as a kind of import tax.

The answer to your charter question is that all boats that are to be chartered in Spain must have a charter licence - as I'm sure you already know because, i believe, you charter. For boats over 15m, a licence will only be granted if the boat is Spanish registered. To be Spanish registered, the boat has to be Spanish and therefore "matriculated" into Spain - thus the 12% matriculation tax is paid. Again this has a distinct smell of import duty about it. In other words, it has to be a Spanish property before it can be chartered. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Spanish authorities were having trouble during the Americas Cup in Valencia - none of the large charter spectator yachts would visit because they would have to be Spanish registered in order to charter for the event. Apart from not wanting to pay matriculation tax, they simply didnt want to be Spanish registered. I believe that a special new marina in Valencia was constructed with special permission for these charter vessels. A bit of a fiddle but this bent the rules enough to get the income into the infrastructure.

So, in summing up, the 12% matriculation isnt a wealth tax - its more of a tax that is paid when an asset becomes Spanish and this links back to the 183 day rule - if a person has to become Spanish for tax purposes, then his assests have to be Spanish as well.
Thats the way I see it anyway.
 
Re: Pardon?

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Quote:

Quote:
they arent in the EU - so keeping your boat there for any length of time would mean it looses its VAT paid status





Also A boat never loses its VAT paid status, as long as the audit trail of paperwork is retained, AFAIK. Anybody differ?

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If you find me wasting time in The Lounge, please point me to the door.

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I've been racking my brain over this one as well.
I cant entirely remember but I think that if you own a VAT paid boat, you can bring it back to the EU from a non EU country yourself without having an extra liability of VAT.
However, if you sell it to someone else outside the EU the new owner will have to pay VAT when bringing it back into the EU.

I'm probably digging a big hole for myself - remembering that very interesting thread of jfm's last month. Note that in my comment above, I specifically didnt mention the boat's VAT status - because it seems from jfm's comments that a boat doesnt have a VAT status per se.

So taking Jez's example if someone were to buy a boat from Croatia and bring it back into the EEC, they would be importing it and it would have to have VAT paid on its value. However, (and this I'm not sure about) if you took your own VAT paid boat to Croatia and then brought it back, you wouldnt be importing it so no VAT payable.

OK then shoot me down.
 
Re: Pardon?

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they arent in the EU - so keeping your boat there for any length of time would mean it looses its VAT paid status

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Also /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif A boat never loses its VAT paid status, as long as the audit trail of paperwork is retained, AFAIK. Anybody differ?

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As I understood it, if a boat (or any other asset for that matter) leaves the EU for a longer than a defined period (6 months springs to mind, but it could be longer) then if the same asset is re-imported back into the EU (not visiting, permanently re-imported) then VAT would be liable on it.

Though Mike's response has got me thinking. Certainly if you sell your VAT paid boat while out of the EU, VAT would be liable if the new owner re-imported it. I understood it was regardless of ownership but I would be happy to admit I was wrong.
 
Re: Pardon?

You are absolutely right. Despite what you think of the RYA the information in respect of VAT on boats that spend time outside the EU is correct. If the boat changes hands outside the EU and is subsequently re-imported it is subject to VAT. It can only be re-imported without paying VAT by the person that took it out of the EU. Returning residents can also import personal assets under certain circumstances without paying VAT.

The "VAT paid Status" on boats is a figment of HMRC imagination. Such status does not exist except in a narrow sense because similar words were used for pre-1985 boats in the EU in 1992. However, the term has no meaning because VAT is not accounted for against a specific boat as it is not a tax on the asset, but on the transaction or "chargeable event" in HMRC speak.

There was indeed a long thread on the subject a couple of months ago. The consensus view is that there is no legal requirement for an owner to provide evidence that VAT has been accounted for on a boat within the EU. If the owner is the purchaser from a VAT registered trader (such as a builder or a dealer) the responsibility for accounting for VAT is with the trader, not the owner. If the current owner purchased the boat from a private EU citizen then it is not a "chargeable event" and there is no VAT to account for.

Unfortunately for their own unexplained reasons HMRC seem to think that an owner should be in posession of "evidence" that VAT has been accounted for, even though there is no requirement in law for a VAT trader to either identify VAT to a specific boat, nor to keep records for longer than 6 years.

I do not think the HMRC position has ever been tested in law, simply because there is no offence with which they can charge an individual private boat owner.
 
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For boats over 15m, a licence will only be granted if the boat is Spanish registered

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That can't be because there are plenty of charter boats in Palma well over 15m that are still flying the red ensign and other foreign flags. If they had to be Spanish registered, they'd have to fly the Spanish flag. IMHO, the Spanish are only interested in the money not the registration which would have been reason enough not to land in Valencia

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The answer to your charter question is that all boats that are to be chartered in Spain must have a charter licence -

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Yes that's correct. There's an initial survey during which the surveyor identifies which actions need to be taken to bring the boat upto MCA standard followed by another survey to check that you've done everything. Once that's been done you can apply for the Balearic charter licence which has to be renewed every year at a cost of £350 or so. Yup, I've done about 5 days charter in 3 seasons so it's not exactly been a profitable exercise /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
You are trying to conflate two entirely separate issues. Your freedom to navigate in Spanish waters is covered by the UN convention and applies to any foreign registered ship. How much you spend in Spain is irrelevant.

However, it would be true to say (as the RYA article points out) most Coastal States allow you to do much more than the minimum required by the Convention. In some cases this may be because they want to encourage visitors to spend money, in other cases it may be because they find it impractical to operate in a narrow way.

And the Spanish do not want to "hit" you with a 12% tax - unless you become tax resident in Spain.

Storm in a teacup all this, don't you think?
 
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