Does this worry those of you who keep boats in spain?

Re: Pardon?

[ QUOTE ]
The consensus view is that there is no legal requirement for an owner to provide evidence that VAT has been accounted for on a boat within the EU

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with that in theory but, unfortunately, on a few occasions boaters have been asked to supply this evidence. I was once boarded by Dutch police and asked to supply proof of VAT payment which, fortunately, I was able to do. This is the only time that I have been asked though in 18yrs of boating. The trouble is that the sort of people that might ask for this kind of document are not the sort of people you want to get into an esoteric argument over EU law with. Better safe than sorry IMHO which is why I would certainly continue to insist on an original VAT invoice if buying a VAT paid used boat
 
Re: Pardon?

I never heard about a Yacht losing its VAT paid status because it is located outside of the EU, you loose if you change the flag really and go out EU registration that is correct...
my beleive was always that once VAT is paid and you have the original receipt you are covered in this

on the other hand apparently there is a mess with the Italian leasing on the opposite reasons, because part of the leasing benefit that you get VAT reduced rate comes because a boat being a moveable object will do part of its time in other waters outside the EU that why it should get discounted rates, now the italian authorities are checking the log books of the leased boats (99% of boats have been bought like this there) in Italy to see which of them was outside of the EU and for how much, and this is really creating big troubles for the Italian internal market
the problem is that the Italians Govt want the French and Maltese to do the same with there leasing, but do you think these countries want to miss this income, I dont think so, so they leave Italy in the mess it created on its own
may be Mapis M can tell us more about this....

for Mike F the Italian luxury tax, or better known as Tassa the Stazionamento was abolished in 2001 I think and has not been reinstated, and was for Italian citizens and Italian registered boats
 
Re: Pardon?

The Dutch police have no jurisdiction over VAT. What would they have done if you had not produced it? Almost certainly nothing. As you say, once in 18 years. The Revenue in all countries have far more important things to worry about, and the only time they are likely to make an issue is if they believe you are trying to import a boat into the EU without paying duty and VAT. For example, the French authorities are particularly vigilant in Normandy and Brittany because of the possibility of Channel Islands boats trying to establish permanent berths in France/EU without paying VAT and registering as French boats.

Anyway, being asked by authorities in other countries for this documentation is not really the issue. It is when the myth that it is required is so well established that, for example, finance houses will not advance money against a boat unless the borrower - who may be umpteen owners away from the original purchaser can produce original documents - following HMRC advice that seems to have no basis in law.
 
Re: Pardon?

[ QUOTE ]
they leave Italy in the mess it created on its own
may be Mapis M can tell us more about this....

[/ QUOTE ]I'm afraid I can't, 'cause I've never been interested in those leasing contracts.
I was even surprised to understand from jfm in another thread that they're structured as personal loans, thus leaving any asset of the beneficiary exposed... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Very different from other leasing contracts on industrial equipments I'm more familiar with - but that's another matter anyway.
Re. the "Tassa di stazionamento" instead, that was actually abolished in 2003, but it was related to ANY Italian registered boats afaik, regardless of the owner citizenship.
Not that many UK or Maltese citizens would think to keep their boat IT flagged anyway... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Lots of words 1089 viewed, 43 replied - So, has ANYONE resident for less than 6m in Spain ever paid or been asked to pay, or for that matter know for sure, anyone who has paid this 12% tax when moving their boat from the UK to Spain?
 
Hi Guys,
A very interesting one this, especialy for me as I run a charter company in Menorca. and also skipper vessels for clients. In my readings down the thread so far I would agree with Huricanes coments compleatly. It appears that he also runs charters so has a clear idea of the amount of paper work we have to go through and the required docs etc. However reading all your comments my heart is sinking as I am now questioning my own understanding which is.

Matriculation is payable on a vessel over 15m if the vessel is to be used for hire / rent/ charter. And it is for this reason that we see far more charter vessels in France rather than Spain. I know of nobody who uses their vessel for private use who has had to pay Matriculation. As the vessel is not earning an income in Spain. To this point most charter boats (British registered) book their charters in the UK and pay VAT and income tax acordingly. So the vessel is chartered via a UK booking. This is not to say that the Spanish dont get a fair share of the action as alongside all the documentation required for charters in the UK survays, charter license, Charter insurance, etc etc we also need to repeat all this with the Spanish authorities. to include public liability, Spanish survey, port authority fees, etc etc. Its a minefield. However in all this paper chase I have never been asked for a matriculation Tax payment. Ask yourself this? Why do Sunseeker and Fairline produce vessels which fall just within the 15m rule Sunseeker Portafino 46 Fairline Targa 47 two very popular charter boats in the Med. All our vessels available for charter are less than 15m

With regard to the heaps of vessels moored in Palma that would appear to be running charters in many cases their home ports and charter licence is in France and so they get away with it saying that the charter commenced in France and finishes in France and the Balearics are just a port of call. This is the same as many of the bigger Charter motor yachts, just look at the Sunseeker charters web site and see how many vessels over 15m are based South of France and nothing Spain.

When I aproached my advisers in Palma with regard to licensing a 72' Predator we were looking at Matriculation bills at £120,000 rendering chartering un viable.

So please correct me if I am wrong, as I like to try and keep one step infront of the authorities in Espania. But I must say that in my experience the authorities when challenged seem to have little understanding to the requirements. I also try and retain non residency by closing the business out of season.

A great subject lets try and get to the bottom of it!
 
I think we are all agreed that the Matriculation tax is levied once a person becomes a resident i.e. lives ashore or aboard in Spain fro more than six months correct. OK then given the senario I have copied below from my earlier post*,
it is a FACT that once you become "Spanish" then you as Spanish resident CANNOT skipper a foriegn flagged vessel unless that vessel has had the matriculation tax paid on it. I know this from personnel experience.

How then do all the British skippers of British flagged charter vessels as mentioned by Mike, who live and work on the vessels all year round in the Balearics for example, get away with it. I would wager they are denying being resident, as they could not then keep their job if they were resident as it would mean the owner paying 12% ont vessel.

Clearly this also means that any British "Delivery" skipper who becomes resident cant deliver foreign flagged boats? Emm I wonder how SS, Princess etc get away with that out here as most of there skippers are resident.

Thats before we start on subsequent qualifications, though in my area they do accept YMC once you become resident.

________________________________________________________________

* "P.S. if you keep you boat in Spain and live in UK, and say your neighbour here is a nice Spanish fellow and you say "hey Pedro whilst I am back in the UK feel free to use me boat" if he gets caught using your UK reg vessel he will be charged and have to pay the 12% matriculation on the boat, they will stick a precinto notice on it until it is paid. This is cos "Spanish" residents cannot skipper foreign flagged vessel unless or until the matriculation tax on that vessel is paid.
 
Re: Pardon?

Well, you have clearly not read the VAT regulations (in easily digestible form on the RYA website). If a boat leaves the EU then is re-imported, it is subject to VAT unless the person who re-imports it is the same person that took it out of the EU. If it changed hands outside the EU it loses this somewhat vague "VAT paid" status.

No doubt this is a very difficult one to police. For example if the sale took place between two EU private citizens it could be difficult to prove that the sale took place outside the EU. On the other hand if the sale was to a non-EU citizen then VAT would be payable on entry into the EU, unless the owner applied for temporary importation - further complicated rules, again on the RYA website. Note this is EU wide, not just UK.

There is no absolute proof that VAT has been "accounted for" on a boat, because there is no obligation to identify the boat on the invoice, nor for the person responsible for accounting for VAT (the vendor) to keep records for more than 6 years. As an example, the VAT invoice for my boat, purchased from a Greek dealer identifies the boat by its Greek registration number - which is now not relevant as it is no longer on the Greek register. The Bill of Sale, however which is the legal transfer of ownership identifies the boat both by its original registry AND its HIN. However in 5 years time (ie 6 years after I bought it) there will be no record of VAT payments to the Greek revenue that would have included the amount paid by me - but not recorded as being specifically for my boat, except by reference to the invoice number.

This is hardly surprising as the tax is not on the asset, but on the transaction. The vendor only has to account for his "value added" - ie the VAT he receives minus the VAT he has paid.
 
Re: Pardon?

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you have clearly not read the VAT regulations (in easily digestible form on the RYA website). If a boat leaves the EU then is re-imported, it is subject to VAT unless the person who re-imports it is the same person that took it out of the EU. If it changed hands outside the EU it loses this somewhat vague "VAT paid" status.

[/ QUOTE ]

this 100000% wrong, it is about the flag, not the country really I am sure cause my client won a court battle about this

London registered 55ft boat with VAT paid German owned sold to French, changes flag to Gibraltar, boat always moored in France = VAT Paid not valid
as stated by the RYA old owner could make it valid only
I think leaving the EU means changing flag and going to a flag outside EU, that is correct but RYA dont specify this
 
Apologies for repeating myself, but...

[ QUOTE ]
London registered 55ft boat with VAT paid German owned sold to French, changes flag to Gibraltar, boat always moored in France = VAT Paid not valid
as stated by the RYA old owner could make it valid only

[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Pardon?

[ QUOTE ]
there is a mess with the Italian leasing ..... now the italian authorities are checking the log books of the leased boats .... to see which of them was outside of the EU and for how much

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That's a classic. The schemes were set up on the basis that it's not practical to assess every boats time in and out of the EU, so the tax authorities agreed some standards for different sizes of boats. Now they want to assess each boat individually /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Re: Apologies for repeating myself, but...

hmm I tryed to be too simple may be

1) boat bought new by German owner
2) he regiters with UK flag and Pays VAT in EU, bases it in SOF
3) he sells it after 2 years to a French
4) French changed to Gibralatar flag
5) Boat remains always in SOF EU
6) I have an Italian client for this boat
7) according client lawyers VAT is not paid as boat is out EU flaged
8) owner says he has VAT Paid document which certifies this
9) we take him to court British law and we win the case boat is VAT not paid
from there I learn that the boat could have been in Australia its the flag that matters, the RYA should state this in there site
 
Re: Pardon?

The "Flag" is completely irrelevant for VAT purposes. VAT is a tax on a transaction, not a registered vessel. There is no requirement to register a vessel in the UK, but a transaction that is a "chargeable event" is subject to VAT.

The case you are quoting, if I read correctly confirms what I say. If the boat leaves the EU it has to pay VAT on re-entry, unless the same owner re-imports it. The only relevance of registration is that it provides evidence that the boat has left the EU. If the boat is still kept in France then I am pretty sure that the French revenue could demand VAT is paid again as it is no longer allowed in the EU, unless the owner can apply for temporary importation (if he is a non-EU citizen).

A UK boat could leave the UK, retain its UK registration, and still be subject to VAT on re-entry unless by the same owner.
 
Re: Pardon?

Good point. Fiscal authorities are often pretty hectic.
But we shouldn't forget the scenario they're dealing with: the bigger the boat, the lower the chances that any VAT is cashed in by HMRC and their likes in other Countries.
Mind, not because there is any real difference between the sale transactions of 20' RIBs and of boats worth millions.
Just because the latter is typically structured as a different transaction, formally.
But in reality they're both sales to private individuals, and as such both subject to non recoverable VAT.
We must at least recognise the reasons of fiscal authorities to be a bit frustrated about it!
Not to mention the 20' RIBs buyers...
...who on a side note pay their fuel in full, whilst the owners of bigger boats enjoy also duty free fuel.
 
Re: Apologies for repeating myself, but...

ROTFL! That's a perfect example of what I said in my previous reply to Nick.
Dare I guess what really happened in the case you're mentioning?
1) boat bought new by German owner who doesn't want to pay VAT and buys the boat through a UK charter company, who does pay the VAT but also recovers it;
2) The French gentleman, moved by the same patriotic sentiment as the German, does the same with a Gibraltar company;
3) At this stage, if your Italian client wants to purchase the boat as a private individual, he obviously has to pay VAT which couldn't recover, regardless of where the boat was moored and of its flag.
Alternatively, he can arrange a similar trick. But maybe he's planning to cruise Italian coasts, and he knows that fiscal authorities aren't that stupid after all, so he doesn't want to gamble...?
 
Re: Pardon?

Steady on guys

Go and read jfm's post last month.

He made it quite clear that you cant be responsible for another person's VAT liability. The big issue here is that VAT might be due if any boat is re-imported. Now, if you are the owner who took it out of the EU, then you probably arent actually re-importing it but if you bought a boat outside the EU then you probably are importing it.
This has all been said many times before in this thread.

I think we've all got to get this "VAT paid status" thing out of our heads - there isnt such a thing.
 
Re: Pardon?

It's actually an impossible situation for the tax authorities. During a routine on-water stop, how do the French Douanes know whether a UK flagged boat without a VAT invoice has been imported or not by its current owner? They don't, and they can't check, 'cos UK HMRC would not have any record of whether VAT was paid either, and would not carry out an investigation on behalf of the French, plus of course, the French are hardly likely to pursue an investigation that leads to UK VAT being paid anyway, why would they? Even if the boat has an original VAT invoice to a private buyer, that's no proof that VAT was paid on the purchase, so it's a bugger's muddle all round.

So, in the absence of any real way of knowing, the tax authorities seem to have settled on an original VAT invoice as the best (but not guaranteed) evidence that tax was paid. On that basis, even if there's no substance to it in law, i'd want a VAT invoice.
 
Re: Pardon?

But are you aware of any cases where HMRC has attempted to collect VAT from a private owner because of the absence of an original VAT invoice?

I don't know the answer, but I would guess never, unless it was in relation to the import of a boat from outside the EU.
 
Re: Apologies for repeating myself, but...

You are jumping to conclusions here. To be able to make any comment we would need to know the facts of the case and the reasons for the court's decision.

There is nothing in VAT law or regulations that links VAT paymernt to registration.

Consider the following scenarios.
1 My boat was purchased from a Greek dealer and I paid VAT in Greece. It has never been in the UK, but is on the SSR
2 If instead of keeping the boat in Greece I could have exported it to Croatia or Turkey and not paid the VAT. It would still Be a british registered ship.
3 If I subsequently wanted to bring it into the EU I would have to pay VAT in the first state of entry, which could for arguments sake be Italy. It would still be a British registered ship.
4 As I have paid the VAT I can take it to Turkey or Croatia for a period of time and bring it back into the EU without paying VAT again. It is still a British registered ship.
5 If, however, I sell it to somebody in Turkey and the new owner wants to bring it into the EU he will have to pay VAT. If he qualifies by residency (in the UK) he could register it as a British ship, but would still have to pay VAT

Now consider I won the lottery and treated myself to a nice new Oyster to sail around the Caribbean. I could register it as a British ship, export it VAT free to Antigua, use it (subject to any local regulations) for as long as I liked. If, however, I wanted to bring it into the EU I would have to pay VAT, probably after a lengthy discussion with the revenue on value!

So, you see all these different scenarios in respect of VAT but ALWAYS the boat is registered in the UK.

Your court judgement will be based on the facts of the case and the court's interpretation of how those facts fit the regulations. I suspect, as I suggested originally that the registration in Gibraltar was just one piece of evidence that persuaded the court that the regulations that determine a boats re-importation and therefore payment of VAT should be applied.
 
Re: Pardon?

No, but then i've never heard of HMRC carrying out spot checks on boats at all. I've certainly heard of boat owners being asked for the VAT invoice in other European countries, albeit the reports are second hand, and i've no idea what would have happened if they didn't have the invoice.

Most of the time the question of whether tax has been paid or not will come up when the boat is stopped at sea or in a marina by a customs boat in other European waters. The customs officers can only judge whether tax was correctly paid by the current owner based on the documentation they can see on board. If you have an original VAT invoice, most likely they'll go away, even though it's only circumstancial evidence that VAT has been correctly paid. If you don't, the customs officer has no evdience at all that you didn't buy the boat in Jersey, and have never paid VAT when it was brought into EU waters, so may suspect any boat without a VAT invoice has been imported without VAT being paid.

What alternative do they have? If they accept the legal position that jfm clearly defined, then there is no need for any boat owner to carry a VAT invoice, and hence they have no way of determining if a boat has been imported without VAT having been paid, and they may as well de-commission all their customs boats and give up.

This is why I think they stick to the argument that owners should carry the VAT invoice on board, even though they presumably know there is no legal obligation for the owner to do so, and also know that it isn't absolute proof that VAT has been paid. Howver, the only other option is to admit defeat, and in my experience, the tax authorities don't like doing that.
 
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