RobbieH
Well-Known Member
+1 for the 10kg Rocna - I have a 10kg on an Arpege 30' 3500kg and am very happy with it.
Does anyone here have any advice to give about anchors?
- Thread starter Ravi
- Start date
+1 for the 10kg Rocna - I have a 10kg on an Arpege 30' 3500kg and am very happy with it.
Ravi
Well-Known Member
Yes, The 15 Kg is overkill, perhaps, but the windlass and trim should cope with the extra weight.
I think that the larger 15 Kg is more likely to fit than the 10 Kg because the hoop/ring needs to clear the protruding wooden platform.
Incidentally, there is a Jaguar at the end of my pontoon (also ex- SH) with the same style of bow fitting as me and he has a Rocna 10 Kg.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
No doubt with the expensive hardened shank material replaced by softer cheap stuff. Photos of bent ones will be welcomed!
Ravi
Well-Known Member
Vyv, apart from the fact that you know more about anchoring than I ever will and that since I have just scraped the money together for a genuine Rocna, you will gather that I subscribe to your conservative view........
....it does occur to me that the couples with Turkish clone anchors are experienced long time cruisers and they rave about how their Rocna copies perform. And, obviously, they haven't encountered conditions that have caused the anchor to bend.
Am I right in thinking that the anchor bending would not cause it to drag - just mean a replacement anchor was required? i,e, a cost issue rather than a safety issue?
In that case, you could replace a lot of 70 Euro Clone anchors before it became more expensive than a 420 Euro Rocna! Six times, according to my wayward mental maths.
As I say, these guys are experienced and they say that this clone anchor is a huge improvement on their old gen anchors. So, surely, if someone is not in a position to pay the full whack for a Spade or Rocna, it makes sense to buy one of these cheap clones and to keep the old Bruce as a spare?
So, although I have opted to let the wains go hungry so I can get the genuine Rocna, I think it makes perfect sense for people to upgrade from an old gen anchor to a New Gen clone. Better to survive a maelstrom with a bent shaft than have a yacht on the rocks and an intact anchor lying on its side.
My random mental table rates the various anchors as Bruce/CQR, etc. = 5/10 and Rocna/Spade, etc. 8/10. If the clones can achieve 7/10 or more, they seem like a good investment at that price.
Having said all that, I pick up my Rocna on Saturday. I have a couple of mates coming out to sail with me so I might drill them in anchoring technique so that I can jump off the bow and see the new baby at work! I can't wait! I am sad, I know.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I picked up one of the offspec Rocnas, a 10kg model. I bolted the fluke to a concrete floor and was able to bend the shank under a load of about 175kg. This is not very much - you should be able to developing a setting load of about 100kg for every 10hp (then add wind).
Most of the Rocna anchors, that I heard of that bent, were bent during retrieval though I did know of one bent during a thunderstorm. Shank strength is a sensitive topic and I am sure many of the reports of bent shanks were suppressed (same with Mantus). You would not change shank material, to something better - unless there was an unhealthy population of bent shanks. So the numbers we heard of were small - too small to need to change the steel - so I suspect there were a lot that were swept under the carpet (new shanks or new anchors provided). There is nothing wrong with this - they are in business to make a profit and survive.
These modern anchors on retrieval if well set are basically immovable - in an instant - but will break free with patience. An anchor that is 'too big' might break free much more easily. Fortress Chesapeake test suggested that one of their anchors held as much 'vertically' as it did 'horizontally' - the hold when the chain was vertical was the same as the hold (or holding capacity). This was with an anchor with the shank at 45 degrees.
The suggestion is that a well set anchor will have as much hold (or thereabouts), initially on retrieval as it had when set by engine and wind. Once you sit over the anchor the seabed shears and the anchor can be retrieved. But try to retrieve it quickly, or have a snatch load imposed by a wave (big ferry passing, say) and you have a load that might bend a weak shank.
I suspect, as Vyv suggests, that these copy Rocnas have 'mild' steel shanks and will be prone to bending. Wait till the copiers get into making copy Mantus - its shank will be even weaker as the shank has a low profile.
An anchor with a bent shank might retain hold but it will not set - the anchor needs a straight shank to allow the toe to engage. So if it bends and then tries to reset - it will not (reset) and if the owner tries to reset it - they will be unsuccessful.
A shank that bends easily will be staightened easily, though what you do with the yacht as you wait, I'm not sure. But you will have difficulty getting it as straight as the original.
So the anchors are cheap but are unreliable. Considering the cost of a good anchor any serious cruiser would not touch them with a barge pole (though the barge pole would make a good lever to straighten one
)
People defend their choice of anchor without question - its one of those immutable facts of sailing!
Jonathan
Most of the Rocna anchors, that I heard of that bent, were bent during retrieval though I did know of one bent during a thunderstorm. Shank strength is a sensitive topic and I am sure many of the reports of bent shanks were suppressed (same with Mantus). You would not change shank material, to something better - unless there was an unhealthy population of bent shanks. So the numbers we heard of were small - too small to need to change the steel - so I suspect there were a lot that were swept under the carpet (new shanks or new anchors provided). There is nothing wrong with this - they are in business to make a profit and survive.
These modern anchors on retrieval if well set are basically immovable - in an instant - but will break free with patience. An anchor that is 'too big' might break free much more easily. Fortress Chesapeake test suggested that one of their anchors held as much 'vertically' as it did 'horizontally' - the hold when the chain was vertical was the same as the hold (or holding capacity). This was with an anchor with the shank at 45 degrees.
The suggestion is that a well set anchor will have as much hold (or thereabouts), initially on retrieval as it had when set by engine and wind. Once you sit over the anchor the seabed shears and the anchor can be retrieved. But try to retrieve it quickly, or have a snatch load imposed by a wave (big ferry passing, say) and you have a load that might bend a weak shank.
I suspect, as Vyv suggests, that these copy Rocnas have 'mild' steel shanks and will be prone to bending. Wait till the copiers get into making copy Mantus - its shank will be even weaker as the shank has a low profile.
An anchor with a bent shank might retain hold but it will not set - the anchor needs a straight shank to allow the toe to engage. So if it bends and then tries to reset - it will not (reset) and if the owner tries to reset it - they will be unsuccessful.
A shank that bends easily will be staightened easily, though what you do with the yacht as you wait, I'm not sure. But you will have difficulty getting it as straight as the original.
So the anchors are cheap but are unreliable. Considering the cost of a good anchor any serious cruiser would not touch them with a barge pole (though the barge pole would make a good lever to straighten one
)People defend their choice of anchor without question - its one of those immutable facts of sailing!
Jonathan
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
As usual, Jonathan explains perfectly. During 'Rocnagate' a few years ago it was stated that a misalignment of the tip and shank of only a few degrees would markedly inhibit both set and hold. Rocnas submitted for testing were selected by the makers to ensure they were perfectly aligned.
I have never bent a shank but I have applied considerable lateral loading to both Delta and Rocna when they became fouled in rocks. I suspect that the combination of long lever arm and mild steel would have caused either of them to bend but fortunately the superior strength of their better grades of steel resisted my heavy shock loadings. As I recall the bent Rocna shank that started all the flak was done in Venice Bay, where the bottom is all mud and sand, no rocks at all.
I have never bent a shank but I have applied considerable lateral loading to both Delta and Rocna when they became fouled in rocks. I suspect that the combination of long lever arm and mild steel would have caused either of them to bend but fortunately the superior strength of their better grades of steel resisted my heavy shock loadings. As I recall the bent Rocna shank that started all the flak was done in Venice Bay, where the bottom is all mud and sand, no rocks at all.
Ravi
Well-Known Member
Thanks Jonathon. That makes perfect sense.
From your explanation, it sounds like the shank bending could, conceivably, be a safety issue as well as a financial one, in the scenario where (1). a sudden wind shift / swell causes the shaft to bend (2). The anchor unsets (3.) the anchor can't reset because of the bent shank.
Unlikely, I know, but it makes me feel better about shelling out for a £££genuine£££ one. (I will be picking it up from the Chandlers today!)
Thanks, again.
From your explanation, it sounds like the shank bending could, conceivably, be a safety issue as well as a financial one, in the scenario where (1). a sudden wind shift / swell causes the shaft to bend (2). The anchor unsets (3.) the anchor can't reset because of the bent shank.
Unlikely, I know, but it makes me feel better about shelling out for a £££genuine£££ one. (I will be picking it up from the Chandlers today!)
Thanks, again.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
If a genuine anchor costs Stg500 and you only use it for 60 nights per year - its cost you less than stg10 per night, for the second year - it halfs etc. Its incredibly cheap insurance.
If you pay stg100 for a copy and something goes wrong and you 'only' end up on a sandy beach this might result in the crew having serious doubts over where else you might have tried to save money (actually the crew might simply have serious doubts!)
Bending is not that unlikely - I do know of one anchor (I have the pictures and account from the owner) that bent when a thunderstorm passed directly overhead and when the wind passed through 180 degrees and suddenly came from the opposite direction the yacht - 'sailed' across the diameter defined by the chain length - and bent the shank. You know how frequent are such events (or other such strong wind shifts) where you are. This problem might not happen with an older design - the anchor would simply pull out and drag (so less chance of bending). This is the price one pays for an anchor that sets reliably and deeply (but has an inadequate shank).
A genuine anchor will last 'almost' for ever. It is a lot of money for, what looks like, a pretty unremarkable combination of steel plates - but people spend that sort of money for a mobile phone that's no better (really) than last year's model and the new one will last 18 months? Its a question of priorities - and how a serious long term cruiser, who lives at anchor, can consider saving money on such a critical item of kit (when there are sensible alternatives) beggars belief.
If you see any of these copy anchors that are bent - as Vyv says - take some pictures. Most people will not want to have been found so lacking in caution - so do not expect to see this sort of decision advertised!
Do not worry - you have spent you money wisely.
Jonathan
If you pay stg100 for a copy and something goes wrong and you 'only' end up on a sandy beach this might result in the crew having serious doubts over where else you might have tried to save money (actually the crew might simply have serious doubts!)
Bending is not that unlikely - I do know of one anchor (I have the pictures and account from the owner) that bent when a thunderstorm passed directly overhead and when the wind passed through 180 degrees and suddenly came from the opposite direction the yacht - 'sailed' across the diameter defined by the chain length - and bent the shank. You know how frequent are such events (or other such strong wind shifts) where you are. This problem might not happen with an older design - the anchor would simply pull out and drag (so less chance of bending). This is the price one pays for an anchor that sets reliably and deeply (but has an inadequate shank).
A genuine anchor will last 'almost' for ever. It is a lot of money for, what looks like, a pretty unremarkable combination of steel plates - but people spend that sort of money for a mobile phone that's no better (really) than last year's model and the new one will last 18 months? Its a question of priorities - and how a serious long term cruiser, who lives at anchor, can consider saving money on such a critical item of kit (when there are sensible alternatives) beggars belief.
If you see any of these copy anchors that are bent - as Vyv says - take some pictures. Most people will not want to have been found so lacking in caution - so do not expect to see this sort of decision advertised!
Do not worry - you have spent you money wisely.
Jonathan
Ravi
Well-Known Member
That is the logic that I apply..
Another subsidiary benefit of a good anchor...- Marital Harmony! By the fifth attempt to re-anchor, there will usually be dark mutterings about 'somebody's' anchoring competence at at least one end of the boat.
As a single hander, an anchor that bites reliably is a big boon as well for two reasons. Having to recover and redrop is more of a pain on your own and my old Bruce would sometimes take 10m to dig in. So, when going stern to and allowing 30m of scope I sometimes found that I had 20m.
My other justification for buying the Rocna is that I might be selling by boat, sometime, and I think that having good ground tackle is one of the things that gives a seller an edge over the many other people selling other similar boats.
Sadly, the Athens chandlers have messed up and I won't get it till Tuesday. Oh well, no excuse not to fix the engine, water pump, etc., now!
Uno
Member
I bet your anchoring will instantly improve anyway if you get the heavier anchor .... 10 KG sounds a little light for a 30' yacht.
Most of the designs do the job pretty well ... a swivel to allow it to rotate is also a great help.
Everyone has a disaster story about their anchor type and in most cases they also have a story to tell about how good their anchor was on such and such occasion.
Weight and chain length are key !
Most of the designs do the job pretty well ... a swivel to allow it to rotate is also a great help.
Everyone has a disaster story about their anchor type and in most cases they also have a story to tell about how good their anchor was on such and such occasion.
Weight and chain length are key !
Check out the Mantus: http://mantusanchors.com/mantus-anchors/ amazing holding power, watch the videos of tests against all mentioned so far. Its an American made one, distributors in the Netherlands. No connection to the company.
Sam Sailing
Member
We have a 10kg Delta on our 34' yacht. Works fine. Our Poncin was built in the old Morans Gib'Sea factory
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Sadler 34s were supplied from new with a 10 kg (25lb) CQR copy. I guess many have been upgraded to 15 kg nowadays, many with a better anchor. I think that in many cases 10 kg is sufficient for this size of boat, and certainly for 30 ft.
There has been quite a lot of discussion about the possibility that a 30 ft boat may not be able to pull hard enough to set anchors with large surface areas in hard bottoms.
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
apologies, not read the whole thread but just the opening/original post.
Go 'modern generation' with a sensible length/size of chain + 20m to suit the environment you aim to be cruising in. simples!
Reminder to self.... change the set-up after the swivel on this....
http://s725.photobucket.com/user/jo...nshelteredbuttherewasweed.mp4.html?sort=3&o=6
Vyv's 'your man!'
S.
Go 'modern generation' with a sensible length/size of chain + 20m to suit the environment you aim to be cruising in. simples!
Reminder to self.... change the set-up after the swivel on this....
http://s725.photobucket.com/user/jo...nshelteredbuttherewasweed.mp4.html?sort=3&o=6
Vyv's 'your man!'
S.
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
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charles_reed
Well-Known Member
There's probably little to choose between Spade (the original) Rocna (exorbitantly priced), Manson, Bugel or Mantus. The Ultra, beautiful though it is, is totally uneconomic unless bought in Turkey.
I found the Mantus the least ridiculously priced and bought that - a 25lb one is as recommended for my boat, cost $US 340, delivered Greece from Texas.
I'd suggest you buy the one that leaves the smallest hole in your pocket. Likely to be a Bugel or Mantus.
Rocna, despite their claims for the efficiency of their anchor seem to demand you buy a far heavier one than anyone else, perhaps that's why they come highest in cost of any anchor choice.
I've used the Mantus for 144 anchorings, during this season, 1 mis-set, 1 drag on a seagrass rhizome and 1 drag on an old tyre.
Have a look @ cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/photos-of-anchors-setting-126073.html
PS Though they claim the Rocna to be the best
I found the Mantus the least ridiculously priced and bought that - a 25lb one is as recommended for my boat, cost $US 340, delivered Greece from Texas.
I'd suggest you buy the one that leaves the smallest hole in your pocket. Likely to be a Bugel or Mantus.
Rocna, despite their claims for the efficiency of their anchor seem to demand you buy a far heavier one than anyone else, perhaps that's why they come highest in cost of any anchor choice.
I've used the Mantus for 144 anchorings, during this season, 1 mis-set, 1 drag on a seagrass rhizome and 1 drag on an old tyre.
Have a look @ cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/photos-of-anchors-setting-126073.html
PS Though they claim the Rocna to be the best
doug748
Well-Known Member
"There's probably little to choose between Spade (the original) Rocna (exorbitantly priced), Manson, Bugel or Mantus...."
I have found the 10kg Rocna for £275 at Piplers and the Spade for £255 + VAT ex Jersey. So not as dreadful as previously but still out of my league, naturally.
I have found the 10kg Rocna for £275 at Piplers and the Spade for £255 + VAT ex Jersey. So not as dreadful as previously but still out of my league, naturally.
ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
I've never had a new generation anchor and wonder if they are really worth the money. I know many will say your life may depend on it so buy the best (most expensive) but you can say that about sails, radios, lifejackets etc etc. If I bought the most expensive of everything, I wouldn't be able to afford to sail at all. Previous generations of sailors used Bruce, Danforth, CQR and the like with no qualms so what has changed? I'll stick with my alloy Guardian (or Fortress?) and hope for the best.
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
I also found that my Twister 28 (4+ton)was adequately anchored with a 10kg Rocna
I now find that my Tradewind 11ton+(all up) adequately anchored with a 15kg Rocna
We anchored far more in a 5month cruise in Scotland and a 4 month cruise in Galicia than any other form of 'parking up' and never once failed to set first time and never has dragged.
I also have to go astern fairly slowly as the Rocna sets so quicly and often deeply, that it could do damage or throw someone seriously off balance.
I also have claimed that I will never purchase an anchor without a roll-bar or too heavy as my wife would struggle with it!
S.
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Neeves
Well-Known Member
We quite happily cruise into the Roaring Forties and use a 15kg Anchor Right Excel on a 38' cat weighing in at 7t - though if 50 knots is forecast we do head for the least windy spot we can find and deploy a second anchor (one of which is an alloy Anchor Right Excel or Fortress (FX23). Whether we need that second anchor - do not know - it just seems prudent (and its easy to do)
I had a thread on the dragging of modern anchors, maybe 4 weeks ago. Most people had anchors sized close to that recommended by the manufacturer (which is the same sort of sizing as one has for a CQR/Delta/Bruce), some had gone one or 2 sizes bigger and a few had gone slightly smaller - no-one suggested they had dragged with a modern anchor (unless they caught a crab pot or something). Modern anchors appear reliable, if respondents on YBW are typical, the necessity for monster anchors seems overstated (maybe internet scaremongering at its best?)
But thousands of people safely use Delta, CQR and Bruce and have done for decades and these anchors have been used in some heroic places. Technology and design has moved on, I (for one) would expect and hope that over the decades - but the traditional designs have not suddenly become less safe than they were 30 years ago.
I had a thread on the dragging of modern anchors, maybe 4 weeks ago. Most people had anchors sized close to that recommended by the manufacturer (which is the same sort of sizing as one has for a CQR/Delta/Bruce), some had gone one or 2 sizes bigger and a few had gone slightly smaller - no-one suggested they had dragged with a modern anchor (unless they caught a crab pot or something). Modern anchors appear reliable, if respondents on YBW are typical, the necessity for monster anchors seems overstated (maybe internet scaremongering at its best?)
But thousands of people safely use Delta, CQR and Bruce and have done for decades and these anchors have been used in some heroic places. Technology and design has moved on, I (for one) would expect and hope that over the decades - but the traditional designs have not suddenly become less safe than they were 30 years ago.