Does anyone here have any advice to give about anchors?

[charles_reed]

On the new 130' - that's a real biggie - for serious cruising.

This comes from the website: http://www.setsail.com/?s=Manson+Supreme&x=0&y=0

Paul Shard Says:
July 27th, 2015 at 3:00 am
I see you have upsized from the Rocna 240 on your 83 footer to the larger 350 Manson on your new Dream Machine 78… were there times you felt the 240 was not sufficient? Or any other reason for the switch?
Steve Dashew Reply:
July 28th, 2015 at 5:43 am

Hi Paul: First reason for going bigger is because of additional windage. The second is because this allows even shorter scope.

Bob N Says:
July 27th, 2015 at 9:52 am
Not so much an anchor as a way of life. Why the change to Manson?
Steve Dashew Reply:
July 28th, 2015 at 5:45 am

Howdy Bob: The Manson is locally built (New Zealand) in a Lloyd’s approved shop.


The vessel (130') falls off the Rocna sizing chart so I do not know what they might recommend, vs what was chosen. It falls off the Manson sizing charts but Manson do say this:

NOTE: The Supreme is a Super High Holding Power Anchor, so a size smaller than the Plough may be used - ie 30lb Plough may be replaced with a 25lb Supreme.

The Manson Plough sizing charts is as follows


. Manson Plough 60lb
48' - 55'

Maybe 27kgs, vs 58kg for the Mantus - so instead of downsizing, as Manson suggest, the weight is effectively doubled, or 2.14 to be pedantic

Jonathan


edit - My 2 times was a 'ball park' figure baed on Noelex, Dashew et al actual usage - it was not intended to be spin, exaggeration for impact. close edit.

I've a pretty uninhibited attitude to having an "oversize" anchor. If you can, handle it, have it not destroy your trim and afford it - well why not?
I'd even go along with the inference that it's better to put your weight in the anchor than in the chain - Dashew is one of those who recommends "undersize" high test chain.

I remember one extremely careful and conscientious ex Red Cross project manager I met on my travels who, when he took up sailing, upped the rigging, chain and anchor specs on his boat from the original.
He had a constant leak from the top of the rudder tube as the boat was some 250mm above design-marks. Providing his battery stood up to the constant drain from the bilge pump, he was happy that he was so much safer...

 

[Ravi]

Reporting back .....

I bought the 15 Kg Rocna and after a couple of weeks these are my observations......

In about a dozen drops, the Rocna bit always immediately. When I dived on the anchor, I could see this very clearly and it contrasted with what I am used to seeing with a Bruce or CQR. which usually had drag marks as it dug in. (This limited trial included hard sand where my old Bruce occasionally lay on its side. ) This rather dramatic trip included an unplanned anchor under sail, when the prop got fouled, so this was a very welcome feature.

My usual anchoring routine includes a mid reverse pause to check that the anchor was digging in. The braking effect of the Rocna was very noticeable. Quite dramatic.

This trip included a horrendous cockup on my part where I got trapped ashore when a big sea built up during a meal ashore. The boat was hobby horsing in the most alarming way and I was very, very, relieved that the anchor held. There is no telling whether my old anchor would have held but the new one certainly did. I have chills running down my spine thinking about that night. Whether the Rocna was worth the money or not, it is certainly not a bad anchor.

On another night, we had a less extreme but still very uncomfortable night at anchor. (Bad enough for many of the other yachts to clear out during the night.) The anchor held well.

There has been quite a lot of discussion about the possibility that a 30 ft boat may not be able to pull hard enough to set anchors with large surface areas in hard bottoms.

I noticed that, in zero to light winds, even after hard reverse, the anchor was not buried in the way that my CQR used to. Even my little Bruce would, sometimes, behave itself and completely disappear underground. With the Rocna, the Roll bar and much of the shank were visible. This was not the case on the night of horror where the anchor was truly buried and had to be eased out with more than a little of the sea bottom coming with it.

So, all in all, I cannot fault the new (heavier) anchor which did its job, even when I didn't!

One thing is that I noticed is that (despite the swivel), the Rocna seemed to insist on coming up on the bow facing the wrong way. I reckon that this is because of the aerodynamic effect of the water on the anchor as I motored out. I took to reversing slowly once the anchor was off the bottom. This worked and the anchor always came up the right way.

It is early days, yet, but so far so good.

 

[Minchsailor]

One thing is that I noticed is that (despite the swivel), the Rocna seemed to insist on coming up on the bow facing the wrong way. I reckon that this is because of the aerodynamic effect of the water on the anchor as I motored out. I took to reversing slowly once the anchor was off the bottom. This worked and the anchor always came up the right way. .

That is interesting - my Rocna also always comes aboard the wrong way; I just may try the reversing trick.

 

[vyv_cox]

One thing is that I noticed is that (despite the swivel), the Rocna seemed to insist on coming up on the bow facing the wrong way. I reckon that this is because of the aerodynamic effect of the water on the anchor as I motored out. I took to reversing slowly once the anchor was off the bottom. This worked and the anchor always came up the right way.

This may be dependent upon the speed of your windlass but with my Maxwell, the fastest one measured by YM, The Rocna rotates as it is being hauled in. From around 5 metres down when clear of the bottom it often rotates two or three times on the way up. However, if the boat is moving forward at this stage it does tend to turn to the 'wrong' way and stop rotating.

 

[rogerthebodger]

A chain to anchor link like this can help the anchor to be turned as it arrives at the bow rollers.

http://www.aplifting.com/index.cfm/...wivel-anchor-chain-connector-stainless-steel/

I made mine from galvanised mild steel 25 mm dia rod

 

[Chris_Robb]

Reporting back .....

I noticed that, in zero to light winds, even after hard reverse, the anchor was not buried in the way that my CQR used to. Even my little Bruce would, sometimes, behave itself and completely disappear underground. With the Rocna, the Roll bar and much of the shank were visible. This was not the case on the night of horror where the anchor was truly buried and had to be eased out with more than a little of the sea bottom coming with it.

So, all in all, I cannot fault the new (heavier) anchor which did its job, even when I didn't!

One thing is that I noticed is that (despite the swivel), the Rocna seemed to insist on coming up on the bow facing the wrong way. I reckon that this is because of the aerodynamic effect of the water on the anchor as I motored out. I took to reversing slowly once the anchor was off the bottom. This worked and the anchor always came up the right way.

It is early days, yet, but so far so good.

Ravi - you will get used to these anchors (I have a Manson) slowly digging in a disappearing if under great strain, They don't plough, they dig.

In respect of the swivel, is this connected to the anchor stock with 3 or so 10mm chain links, or just straight onto the shank. If the later, look at Vyv's website where he explains why you should not fix it to the stock directly.

Glad you have confidence in the new type, but just remember that mud and weed bottoms are no so good! they appear to have taken, but can come out in extremis and when brought to the surface, you will find a ton of earth and weed there proving that they were well set - but of course the bottom has no solidarity.

 

[vyv_cox]

A chain to anchor link like this can help the anchor to be turned as it arrives at the bow rollers.

http://www.aplifting.com/index.cfm/...wivel-anchor-chain-connector-stainless-steel/

I made mine from galvanised mild steel 25 mm dia rod

I bought one of these as a trial before this season. It has an alarming tendency for the eye at the business end to wedge itself between the shackle and anchor and poke out at a strange angle, which causes the anchor not to set. I guess in theory that if I was to lay my anchor and chain down in a perfect line down-wind it would not happen but not so easy to achieve in practice. After several dragging experiences we gave up. I have now gone back to the swivel and three links of chain that in our experience work better than no swivel and definitely better than the Osculati one.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Thats interesting. The one I made is not quite the same. Do you have any pic's of how it was attached to your anchor and chain.

The thread on the mobo forum about chain counters has a video of Hurricane anchor and it shows a similar device on his chain / anchor but does not show how it turns the anchor at the roller

 

[vyv_cox]

Thats interesting. The one I made is not quite the same. Do you have any pic's of how it was attached to your anchor and chain.

The thread on the mobo forum about chain counters has a video of Hurricane anchor and it shows a similar device on his chain / anchor but does not show how it turns the anchor at the roller

I thought I had some pics, here's one that shows a bizarre deployment. In this case the chain has also got itself tangled in the connection, so the anchor has set well but the swivel is pointing straight up!

 

[Chris_Robb]

I thought I had some pics, here's one that shows a bizarre deployment. In this case the chain has also got itself tangled in the connection, so the anchor has set well but the swivel is pointing straight up!

I would imagine if fixed straight to the shank, that the bending strains if the device was cocked up - ie not paid out in line with the chain - would be very bad. If you fixed it with 3 links in between it would rather negate the point of it.

I do not have a swivel and have never had twisting problems on the chain - the Manson does not seem to spin at all in the water - despite it being almost identical to the Rocna eek: )

 

[rogerthebodger]

Thks I see what you mean. Not had that problem my self yet but I don't anchor that much as there are very few places along our coast to anchor safely other that for a quick lunch stop.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I bought one of these as a trial before this season. It has an alarming tendency for the eye at the business end to wedge itself between the shackle and anchor and poke out at a strange angle, which causes the anchor not to set. I guess in theory that if I was to lay my anchor and chain down in a perfect line down-wind it would not happen but not so easy to achieve in practice. After several dragging experiences we gave up. I have now gone back to the swivel and three links of chain that in our experience work better than no swivel and definitely better than the Osculati one.

I have an Osculati and concur that the same has happened to me this last summer.
I think due to the fact that I dumped the chain down on top of the anchor enabling it to get snagged up.
(All other times since 2005 it has turned the anchor onto my roller, .... not always the right way round though )

When weighed the anchor came up in a tangle with Osculati and chain.
Luckily it was a quiet night and we didn't move. (I always set a GPS anchor alarm).

So lesson learnt, I now wait until I have some movement astern and try to judge better the amount ofchain I let free fall relative to the depth.

Since then no problems.

In the last decade + , my little Rocna has never failed me. (size isn't everything!)
If you'r going back with a force 10 and ground tackle is sound, in an anchorage with good holding the favoured direction for a Mod' Gen' anchor is down, and not simulating preparation for the next crop to be sewn!

I have never experienced conditions of just a rock bottom, where holding is best left to a few tons of chain though

S.

 

[Neeves]

For a simple, foolproof, self righting device, try this:

http://www.mysailing.com.au/cruising/how-to-boomerang-you-anchor-right-back-at-you

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Ravi: The detail is possibly somewhere back in the thread, but I'm very lazy! What size of engine do you have on your yacht (and come to that what size yacht do you have?)

Thanks,

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Apparently a number of anchors hydro-rotate on retrieval, quite why is not clear (it implies they are not symmetrical? - but they all seem balanced when I look at them). Delta are meant to be prone - but I do not have enough experience of Delta's, or never looked during retrieval. Mantus self align, if you reverse they always end up facing the right direction (which is advantageous when they set as they always are ready to immediately set). Unfortunately if you want to wash your anchor using yacht movement and seawater - you will be going forward .

But if its found that reversing orientates some anchors the correct way such that they address the bow roller the right way round - then this appears to negate the need for a swivel?

Reports are around, primarily NZ, that Vulcans turn the wrong way round when they actually 'hit' the bow roller and can start to come up inverted. Another anchor for which I have no knowledge - it might be a function of bow roller design (or simply the position of the C of G).

Make a Boomerang!

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

For a simple, foolproof, self righting device, try this:

http://www.mysailing.com.au/cruising/how-to-boomerang-you-anchor-right-back-at-you

Jonathan

I didn't try putting chain links between the Osculati and the anchor as this seemed to be defeating the self-turning properties. If it works with the Boomerang maybe it will with the Osculati, although I was trying to avoid adding the extra shackle. Maybe I will give it a try in 2016.

 

[NormanS]

For a simple, foolproof, self righting device, try this:

http://www.mysailing.com.au/cruising/how-to-boomerang-you-anchor-right-back-at-you

Jonathan

My self-righting device is simple and foolproof. It is simply a piece of 1/2" mild steel round bar, with an eye at each end, and with a bend in it, and galvanised. It is shackled direct to the anchor with a bow shackle. (My chain is 10mm).
It invariably turns the anchor the right way as soon as the bent link comes to the bow roller. It is used daily, and indeed some days on several occasions, and has never failed.
Obviously this sort of device can only be used if there is sufficient distance between the bow roller and the gypsy.

 

[vyv_cox]

My self-righting device is simple and foolproof. It is simply a piece of 1/2" mild steel round bar, with an eye at each end, and with a bend in it, and galvanised. It is shackled direct to the anchor with a bow shackle. (My chain is 10mm).
It invariably turns the anchor the right way as soon as the bent link comes to the bow roller. It is used daily, and indeed some days on several occasions, and has never failed.
Obviously this sort of device can only be used if there is sufficient distance between the bow roller and the gypsy.

I cannot recall what anchor you use (CQR?) The wedging problem that occurs with many swivels is largely caused by the slot in plate shanks. The swivel slides down the slot towards the anchor, wedging itself. The same thing was happening to the shackle with my Osculati self-righter.

 

[NormanS]

No, on my present boat, I do not use a CQR, although on my previous boat my 140lb fabricated plough (CQR type) worked well for me. I would never connect to an anchor with a slotted device, as any side loading will try to open the slot. I use bow shackles at each end of my bent link to give full articulation, but I am fortunate enough to have man-sized bow rollers, which can accept over-sized shackles.

 

[Neeves]

The Boomerang, Norman's bent stainless rod and the Oscallati device all require lots of room between windlass and the end of the anchor shank especially as they need so many shackles to connect everything. The more links you can get between the 'bent link' and the anchor the more time the anchor has to stop 'penduluming' once it has been self righted. Modern windlass are so swift that to have the link self right and the anchor come over the bow roller effectively simultaneously means the anchor might hit something during its rotation.

Repeating a mantra, sorry if its tedious, but the anchor when it sets needs to drag the chain down with it. The shackle end of the shank and the toe engage and bury together. The chain acts as a deterrent to the setting of the anchor, because it resists burying. Anything thicker, or more resistant to burying, than the chain, like a swivel or a beefy bent link will make the anchor's task much more difficult. Might not matter in soft sand - but does matter in hard sand. But a Boomerang made from 8mm steel has a smaller area than an 8mm chain (and could be thinner still as the 8mm Boomerang failed at just under 9t).

Jonathan