Does a New Generation anchor need to be oversized?

[Laminar Flow]

I am inclined to agree with Thinwater, there is a great degree of "internet fear", or as it may be - hysteria out there.
Without determining the true loads to be expected under certain circumstances and of what a particular anchor might hold and in real numbers, any discussion on the matter is rather pointless.

I have calculated the wind load on my rather bulky motorsailer to be around 500 kp, in a F10, and the load in a 5kts current to be under 200kp.

Such loads can easily be handled by our 16kg Kobra or even our old 35 lbs CQR for that matter.
Should that, at some point not be the case, I doubt it would be all the anchor's fault. Even if the new ones are a little bit better and perhaps set quicker and easier, that does not mean we have to all take a collective leave of common sense or throw out the practice of good seamanship.

So, if it is all the same and armed with that knowledge, I'll just get back to cruising and anchoring away happily, just as I did before the yachting press and the internet began insinuating we are doing everything wrong and the gear we were using was complete and utter rubbish.

 

[thinwater]

...As a rule of thumb, a plow will hold minimum 200 times its weight and maximum 700 times its weight or, on average, say 500x. Providing it has properly set, of course....

Data source, please. I think you are off by at least several times, and perhaps as much as an order of magnitude. Even new gen anchors hold only ~ 100-150x in perfect sand and about 40x in soft mud. A plow is more like half that, or 20-100x. A Fortress type can hold 250 in good sand. The only way they hold 700x is cast in concrete. These numbers are quite variable.

And what is "kp?"

Please post the data source.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Data source, please. I think you are off by at least several times, and perhaps as much as an order of magnitude. Even new gen anchors hold only ~ 100-150x in perfect sand and about 40x in soft mud. A plow is more like half that, or 20-100x. A Fortress type can hold 250 in good sand. The only way they hold 700x is cast in concrete. These numbers are quite variable.

And what is "kp?"

Please post the data source.

Kp is kilopond, unit of force. Source: Schult, Richtig Ankern, Delius & Klasing, page 56 (in German) based on a French test, according to source. Units for holding power are in Newton. I apologize for not being specific enough. So, holding power equals 700N per kg, tops.
Even using the numbers from the test in Voile magazine we are still plenty safe.

 

[coopec]

I've read through a whole pile of old threads on anchoring related topics. I'm thinking of changing from a Delta to a new generation anchor (Spade or Rocna), not because I expect to anchor in extreme conditions but getting older and more nervous every day, I want something that I can trust without worrying.
In the various posts that I've read there is generally a belief to always go bigger than manufacturers say. But I'm wondering if this applies more to old style anchors than new generation (NG) anchors (and also possibly to world cruisers, which I'm not). If the NG anchors dig in straightaway, is there any real point to bigger ones? Also, there was a post (possibly by Vyv Cox) where a comment was made on the actual strength of cleats and deck fittings (in mass produced boats) to extreme conditions, so was there a point in having an anchor stronger than the boat?
[I'm trying to leave aside cost but going from 20kg to 25 kg Spade is an extra £200+. Worth paying if necessary, but is it necessary?]
Anyway, thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Srah

I've only read a couple of pages of the thread so far so I suppose I should not be commenting but when I read thread comments like the following I have to take notice.

I'm now leaning toward the Manson Supreme mostly because the Rocna seems to be overpriced
Rocna 55lb $1125
Manson Supreme 60lb $799

Rocna vs Manson Supreme Anchors

 

[coopec]

I've read through a whole pile of old threads on anchoring related topics. I'm thinking of changing from a Delta to a new generation anchor (Spade or Rocna), not because I expect to anchor in extreme conditions but getting older and more nervous every day, I want something that I can trust without worrying.
In the various posts that I've read there is generally a belief to always go bigger than manufacturers say. But I'm wondering if this applies more to old style anchors than new generation (NG) anchors (and also possibly to world cruisers, which I'm not). If the NG anchors dig in straightaway, is there any real point to bigger ones? Also, there was a post (possibly by Vyv Cox) where a comment was made on the actual strength of cleats and deck fittings (in mass produced boats) to extreme conditions, so was there a point in having an anchor stronger than the boat?
[I'm trying to leave aside cost but going from 20kg to 25 kg Spade is an extra £200+. Worth paying if necessary, but is it necessary?]
Anyway, thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Srah

I've got an older generation anchor so I am going through much the same mental exercise as you.

I have yet to satisfy myself the tests were legitimate and impartial. Reading this article may help ULTIMATE HOLDING POWER

I'd like to know the weight of the anchors tested below after reading Vyv Cox's article How to choose the right anchor as he pointed out that setting was a problem with some anchor designs but only light-weight versions.

Anchoring Equipment :: Rocna Next Generation Anchors

 

[Laminar Flow]

I've got an older generation anchor so I am going through much the same mental exercise as you.

I have yet to satisfy myself the tests were legitimate and impartial. Reading this article may help ULTIMATE HOLDING POWER

I'd like to know the weight of the anchors tested below after reading Vyv Cox's article How to choose the right anchor as he pointed out that setting was a problem with some anchor designs but only light-weight versions.

Anchoring Equipment :: Rocna Next Generation Anchors
View attachment 84761

We can of course drive ourselves crazy. We replaced our 35 lbs CQR with a 16kg Kobra; cheap and cheerful and it won the German yachting magazine "Die Yacht" anchor tests ... twice.
So far, so good.

 

[coopec]

We can of course drive ourselves crazy. We replaced our 35 lbs CQR with a 16kg Kobra; cheap and cheerful and it won the German yachting magazine "Die Yacht" anchor tests ... twice.
So far, so good.

I'm a bit skeptical about these tests. Perhaps each anchor has its' strong point and the type of bottom they happen to be tested on influences the results significantly?

 

[sailaboutvic]

That is assuming the weather guys get it right, which even today is not always the case; ask me about last summer, sailing between Guernsey and Brehat. There is a wide span between " F4-5, F6, later" and "gusting F 10 imminent." Happens at night too, I've heard, when you're swinging on you're weekender lunch hook.

25 years ago I would had agreed but with all the info out there now , weather charts And so on if anyone can't work out That maybe a F4 going to end up in a F10 and stay put ,maybe they should be looking at finding another sport ,

Maybe you should come and try sailing in places like Croatia now there you can get a F8 from a F2 within an hour or at times within 10 min , but even there you find sign if could happen .

 

[sailaboutvic]

How do you know this... When did rocnas become "not bendy ones"?

It's no problem if an bendy one , has it happens it's to your advantage, as the tide change the anchor won't pull out , it just bend , then bend back when the tide changes again
Now there an invention if I ever heard one

 

[sailaboutvic]

I'm a bit skeptical about these tests. Perhaps each anchor has its' strong point and the type of bottom they happen to be tested on influences the results significantly?

Agreed , I very rarely look at YouTube video but the few I see testing anchors are done on good holding mostly sand or mud , how about a test on thick weed or a hard bottom .

 

[sailaboutvic]

We can of course drive ourselves crazy. We replaced our 35 lbs CQR with a 16kg Kobra; cheap and cheerful and it won the German yachting magazine "Die Yacht" anchor tests ... twice.
So far, so good.

I would place the Kobra has a good cheap anchor and as long as you set and don't anchor in real shitty weather it do the job .

 

[Neeves]

I'm a bit skeptical about these tests. Perhaps each anchor has its' strong point and the type of bottom they happen to be tested on influences the results significantly?

I am not skeptical about the tests.

I test 15kg anchors and can assure you its difficult enough conducting the tests and trying to get a favourite to be best would be very difficult.

The other idea is - assume that from a bunch of anchors one is the favourite. Consequently the others don't matter to the tester. The tester then tests his favourite so it comes out on top and then tests the rest legitimately. Discard 'the winner' look at the next top 3. Look at tests with a decent population, not one person testing one anchor - you need a bunch of anchors.

I think the people conducting the tests generally try to do them as fairly as possible (especially if the tests is edited by a magazine (as opposed to someone who might not know anything about anchors and just wants another vid) and also, in many or most of tests people, try to simulate 'real life'. However in general they were looking at holding capacity and the tests were conducted in the absence of chop and no veering. Tests have been done on veering, GHA provided a link a couple of days ago and there are other tests.

But seabed is important and the best example of that was the Fortress Chesapeake mud tests - where the seabed that was chose was where the Fortress stands head and shoulders above anything else and in fact demonstrated that in thin mud most anchors are a liability - if you don't have a Fortress and a gale is forecast - go to a marina (or tie to a tree).

Instead of looking at the individual tests look at them all and make your self a crude spreadsheet and see which anchors came out near the top in each test. A pattern will (does) emerge.

Maybe then look at the anchors that were not included in the historic tests (and there have been a lot of tests) and possibly consider them, Vulcan, Excel, Mantus, Knox and sitting in the wings Viking and the new anchors from Lewmar. These latter are not yet released (as far as I know) but maybe you can wait a couple of months and have no need to rush. Given your comment on price - Viking are the new kid on the block, maybe they would like a sale in Oz and the Excel is local (if 5,000km is local) maybe they are not as expensive as some of the others.

I am suspicious of tests on really small anchors as I don't necessarily believe small anchors are always good copies of larger ones - nothing wrong, necessarily, with the tests but its difficult to scale a 30kg anchor - down to 2kg (I'll not go into detail). Most tests have been conducted on anchors of 15kg - 20kg and these scale to the sort of anchors most here would want to buy (or are the size we want to buy). Sadly, as far as I know, you would have difficulty with both Spade, possibly top of the range, and Kobra, cheap, cheerful and well supported on YBW - because there is no distributor of either in Oz. If you happen to be travelling that last comment might not be valid as you could buy and bring back as part of your luggage allowance (that's how we got our Kobra here and might be the way to buy a Fortress.).

I have not checked, for a very long time, but Manson had an excellent series of links to a number of tests. Steer clear of any tests you find using tractors in fields or conducted in quarries - there are plenty of tests in the seabed, the SAIL/West Marine tests and Voile et Voileurs had at least 2 tests, all published or republished in English in YM or YW and I am sure members here might publish links.

Jonathan

A reason not to tests in weed is that it is difficult to find consistent weed, difficult to define the weed (and root) density. it very mucky, lots of mud to clear up. Environmemtalists come down on you like a ton of hot bricks (and I know what I am talking about - I worked in a brick works .

 

[Laminar Flow]

25 years ago I would had agreed but with all the info out there now , weather charts And so on if anyone can't work out That maybe a F4 going to end up in a F10 and stay put ,maybe they should be looking at finding another sport ,

Maybe you should come and try sailing in places like Croatia now there you can get a F8 from a F2 within an hour or at times within 10 min , but even there you find sign if could happen .

I'm sure you're a really terrific an' super sailor an' all etc, etc.
By all accounts the sudden weather change was unforeseen and, as reported, did considerable damage to the outer marina in St. Peters Port. Our weather report was fresh that morning, when we left. It was upgraded in a securite notice on the radio ten minutes before it hit.
Apparently the Adriatic doesn't have a monopoly on sudden weather changes. I guess Croatia, unlike the North Sea, North Atlantic or the North Pacific, is a special and unique reserve for all the really big-balls-hero-types.

 

[RichardS]

I've only read a couple of pages of the thread so far so I suppose I should not be commenting but when I read thread comments like the following I have to take notice.

I'm now leaning toward the Manson Supreme mostly because the Rocna seems to be overpriced
Rocna 55lb $1125
Manson Supreme 60lb $799

Rocna vs Manson Supreme Anchors

View attachment 84760

There are too many anchor threads going on now ..... but, as I said in the other one, I suspect that the observation that the Rocna is "better constructed and is built more robustly" was made before the Chinese doo-doo hit the Rocna fan.

Richard

 

[vyv_cox]

Just to add before everyone goes crazy: SWL for 8mm DIN 766 Chain is 6.3t, Test load is 12.6t, and Breaking load is 25t.

Are you sure about that? Decimal point position? See Chain

 

[sailaboutvic]

I'm sure you're a really terrific an' super sailor an' all etc, etc.
By all accounts the sudden weather change was unforeseen and, as reported, did considerable damage to the outer marina in St. Peters Port. Our weather report was fresh that morning, when we left. It was upgraded in a securite notice on the radio ten minutes before it hit.
Apparently the Adriatic doesn't have a monopoly on sudden weather changes. I guess Croatia, unlike the North Sea, North Atlantic or the North Pacific, is a special and unique reserve for all the really big-balls-hero-types.

Thank you for all the compliment tho I think my balls arnt that big

 

[Neeves]

I suspect that the observation that the Rocna is "better constructed and is built more robustly" was made before the Chinese doo-doo hit the Rocna fan.

Richard

Just to clarify

The use of an inadequate steel for the shanks of the Rocna had nothing to do with any Chinese individuals (nor CMP (who picked up the pieces). The steel was specified and the Chinese did as requested.

I think for a robust anchor - it would be difficult to look past a Knox or Excel. Whether they fit on your bow roller or pocket are different issues.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Jonathan
I enjoy reading you posting, you can write some very good articles but there are times that you just don't convince me because my hands on experience isn't what you find in your tests or your option I sorry to say.


No one going to convince me a one size bigger anchor can be set, for one simple reason , we been doing it for the last 10 years on two different boat with two different engines .


Any way going forward a step,


I really think it's time Noelex and you burned the hatched or the anchor, your two great guys with good info and it's just putting a downer on anchoring thread we can almost predict one or the other going to trash is other posting .


You both have different view on the Mantus, just has we all have a different view on anchors , sizes and chain .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Jonathan
I enjoy reading you posting, you can write some very good articles but there are times that you just don't convince me because my hands on experience isn't what you find in your tests or your option I sorry to say.


No one going to convince me a one size bigger anchor can't be set, for one simple reason , we been doing it for the last 10 years on two different boat with two different engines .


Any way going forward a step,


I really think it's time Noelex and you burned the hatched or the anchor, your two great guys with good info and it's just putting a downer on anchoring thread we can almost predict one or the other going to trash is other posting .


You both have different view on the Mantus, just has we all have a different view on anchors , sizes and chain .

 

[Neeves]

I'm now leaning toward the Manson Supreme mostly because the Rocna seems to be overpriced
Rocna 55lb $1125
Manson Supreme 60lb $799

I think you will find the Rocna is priced as such - because that is what people will pay.

I don't think you will tell the difference in terms of performance. Neither will work in soft soupy mud (buy a Fortress), both will carry seabed (have a good deck wash - and consider Morgans Cloud's comments) both will have a real issue in weed (clogging). Both are excellent in firm mud (have a good deck wash) and in sand. The Supreme has a lovely tripping slot (that you will probably never use - as you cannot know
when you will need it)

Jonathan