Do we now need an electric boat forum???

[Bigplumbs]

so why did he waste so much time using pointless 50kW chargers when he should be using 900V 350kW chargers or 450V 150kW chargers - of which there are plenty on that route?
so why did he waste so much time charging to 100% when 80 - 90% would have been fine to get the rest of the way?
It was staged - badly.

Then ask yourself, how many people ever actually drive more than 400 miles a day in the UK on anything like a regular basis - like three times a year?

Even if you want to drive that distance once a year it won’t work will it. You need to see the truth the infrastructure ain’t there and never will be. UK power networks can hardly cope with the number of new homes being built in the UK let alone all this nonsense

 

[kashurst]

Even if you want to drive that distance once a year it won’t work will it. You need to see the truth the infrastructure ain’t there and never will be. UK power networks can hardly cope with the number of new homes being built in the UK let alone all this nonsense

well there is this: www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

but after all the National Grid is only responsible for the supply and distribution of all UK electricity, so what do they know.......
Meanwhile I am off out today doing yet another 300+ mile ev journey using the non-existant infratstructure. I may be some time...

 

[flaming]

Even if you want to drive that distance once a year it won’t work will it. You need to see the truth the infrastructure ain’t there and never will be. UK power networks can hardly cope with the number of new homes being built in the UK let alone all this nonsense

This is of course complete dribble.

Thousands of people do those distances daily in EVs. I've done it multiple times, and I've never stopped more than I would have anyway for a coffee and a pee. If you aren't a moron then getting your charging stops to the point where you plug in, have a wee, buy a coffee and then the car is ready to go again is just easy. An 18 minute stop is a long one. The chap in that video was either a moron who hadn't read the slightest thing about EVs, or out to deliberately make it look hard. Back when this video first appeared on "that thread" I posted a video of someone doing JOG to Lands end in a Tesla with no hassles in about 15 hours. The guys in that video quite clearly set out to make it look hard. Or are morons.

On the infrastructure point - of course more needs to be done, but the issue at the moment is the distribution side, rather than the generation side. I could tell you all about the issues I've had connecting my new solar farm to the grid....

Again, we've done the maths a dozen times.... Even if every car in the UK was EV and doing the same mileage as now, the amount of power the UK would need annually would be less than the historical peak. We are currently 24% below that peak in 2005, and the trend is down, not up, even with all the EVs on the road...,
United Kingdom Energy Information.

Shall I do it again for you? 32 million cars, doing the UK average of 7k miles at 3 miles / KWh (a bad average) is 75 Terrawatt hours if my maths is correct. The UK demand in 2005 was about 350TWh. Last year was just over 250TWh.

In the last year there were about 350k new EVs. So by the same maths, that's About 0.8TWh of new demand.
Meanwhile in the last year we have installed 3GW of new renewable generation, mostly offshore wind. Roughly speaking for wind 1GW of installed capacity will produce 2000GWh over a year. Or 2 Terrawatt hours. So you can see that currently installation of new renewable capacity is far outstripping new demand due to EVs.
And of course despite that extra 0.8 TWh of demand, national demand fell.

Sure, it's not that simple as there are issues of timing of demand and supply. But please stop with the "can't be done" narrative. It's plainly bollocks as it is being done.

 

[flaming]

On the more general subject of boats. I think, and I've said before, there is a certain amount of "head in sand" thinking about whether boating will continue to be viable in the same way as it is currently.

It's all well and good making the point that nothing works quite as well as Diesel for moving big boats. Point taken. But the question is far more about what are the people who have that sort of boat going to do when the Diesel is taken away? Right now at COP they're debating whether the phrase "Phasing out fossil fuels" goes in the final text. And our government are amongst those advocating for its inclusion.

But even then, if we consider that the current EU, and UK, date for the end of sale of ICE cars is 2035 (and there are strict targets for % of sales in the run up to then) you have to consider what happens to the current supply and distribution model of diesel in the years following. It is estimated that by 2035 half of all vehicles on UK roads will already be EVs. So demand for fuel in the UK will already have halved, maybe more as those with higher mileages are more likely to be early adopters, though counterbalanced by haulage. The current price of fuel depends a lot on economies of scale. With that sort of reduced demand it's quite probable that prices will have to rise as fixed costs are shared amongst lower volumes.

Then think about the business model. There is, I think, this naive sort of assumption that businesses who currently exist to vend fuel will continue to do this right up until the last drop is required, as some sort of public good. But they're not public services, they're private businesses. Any business owner worth their salt who's business is based on selling fuel is going to be looking for their exit strategy, or their diversification strategy. As soon as selling fuel is more hassle than it's worth they'll give it up. And that will drive more and more people, quite rapidly, out of ICE cars and into EVs as it becomes more convenient to run an EV than an ICE.

But that's cars. Nothing to do with boats, right? But think of it this way, the demand for fuel for private boats barely moves the needle in terms of the UK national demand. It won't justify refineries, road tankers, pump manufacturers etc etc that are all needed to get the fuel to come out of a nozzle and into your tank. Without marine demand being able to piggyback on to other demand, forget it, it won't be worth anyone's time.
In that respect boating is lucky that we basically use the same fuel as the last part of the road use that will transition - trucks. So it won't be soon, but it will happen. 2045 maybe? 10 years after the last ICE is sold, will there be enough demand for fuel to support leisure marine diesel? Who knows...

And then consider the other aspect. Over the last 100 years we have become used to ICE engines and their fumes. As they start to become less common on the roads, and people wake up to the fact that not having hundreds of engines pumping out pollutants in their town is quite nice actually, what will that mean for public (and more importantly local councillors) perception of ICE engines in boats, in what are often considered "beauty spots"?

 

[Momac]

Alternative liquid fuels like HVO will replace fossil fuels where appropriate.

 

[flaming]

Alternative liquid fuels like HVO will replace fossil fuels where appropriate.

I think that's the most likely outcome in terms of keeping the current fleet going. However the cost might be quite steep unless significant other user groups also have demand.

 

[ari]

But the question is far more about what are the people who have that sort of boat going to do when the Diesel is taken away? Right now at COP they're debating whether the phrase "Phasing out fossil fuels" goes in the final text. And our government are amongst those advocating for its inclusion.

But even then, if we consider that the current EU, and UK, date for the end of sale of ICE cars is 2035 (and there are strict targets for % of sales in the run up to then) you have to consider what happens to the current supply and distribution model of diesel in the years following. It is estimated that by 2035 half of all vehicles on UK roads will already be EVs. So demand for fuel in the UK will already have halved, maybe more as those with higher mileages are more likely to be early adopters, though counterbalanced by haulage.

Just on these couple of points. I was at school in the seventies and being told that oil was running out and there would be none in a few years. And here we are, half a century on, still being told much the same.

As for the date for the end of sale of ICE cars, it's already being pushed back as it dawns on the powers that be that there simply is not the infrastructure to cope with transitioning everyone to BEV, or any credible plan for there to be so in time.

And as for the estimate (in just over a decade, half of all vehicles will be BEV), surely Covid taught us all we need to know about expert predictions? If you truly believe that then I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[flaming]

Just on these couple of points. I was at school in the seventies and being told that oil was running out and there would be none in a few years. And here we are, half a century on, still being told much the same.

As for the date for the end of sale of ICE cars, it's already being pushed back as it dawns on the powers that be that there simply is not the infrastructure to cope with transitioning everyone to BEV, or any credible plan for there to be so in time.

And as for the estimate (in just over a decade, half of all vehicles will be BEV), surely Covid taught us all we need to know about expert predictions? If you truly believe that then I have a bridge to sell you.

The big difference is that this isn't based on there being no oil left, it's based on humanity as a whole deciding it's best left where it is.

UK carmakers will have to meet electric car sales targets despite Sunak U-turn

Simple maths gives us the result of applying those quotas to average annual car sales. Whether anything changes in the timescale we will see, but the point is that it's coming. Half by 2035, or 2038 doesn't change the end state, just the timing.

For boats it may well be effectively after the majority of those posting here have swallowed the anchor, but even without any active political interference, it's hard to see Diesel boats being practical past the point that road fuel usage drops to basically zero.

 

[dunedin]

Alternative liquid fuels like HVO will replace fossil fuels where appropriate.

I think that HVO MIGHT replace diesel, in some circumstances. It would be great for boaters if it did, as most engines already able to run it and avoids diesel bug issues. But there are challenges, particularly around sustainable supply at any volume, price and availability.
I believe there are joint efforts by the Inland Waterways Association, RYA and CA trying to encourage more availability, and affordability but early days.

 

[dunedin]

Good candidates. You just won’t accept Science and Physics. you need 12 times as much battery mass to 1 liquid fuel mass to achieve the same. Wher you gonna put that lot in a sib. I ain’t seen no sib electric motor that will get you on the plane yet.

Wow. I never thought BP would adopt science - especially after the previous post comparing the huge global investment in EVs to CB radios.
But yes, some science and maths is a good thing in these matters - better than those who just use emotion, prejudice and YouTube.
I think I am an open minded person on these things - neither a head in sand nay-sayer nor an impractical enthusiast (for boat EV).
And I have been looking at the science, the maths, and the industry - including speaking to industry experts and some early EV boat owners - for a while now.

You are right that the relative energy density of diesel vs current best battery technology is a huge issue - as is price, without the land based tax incentives and mandates. The gross difference in energy density is around 10x currently. But the nett difference in energy density for automotive EVs is closer to 3x (diesel vs battery), due to the increased efficiency of an EV drive train.

There have been EV RIBs that can plane for some years now - some made in the UK. But clearly they have serious range limitations.
But you missed entirely my point. Planing mode suits current diesel/petrol boats. But foiling rather than planing is the way forward for EV sports boats etc. As described previously, the science of foiling suits EV perfectly, so that will be the future for dayboats.

In due course the industry needs to think about what to do about building huge things that consume tens of litres per mile, though. Clearly they don’t do a lot of miles, so total impact isn’t huge. But when pressure groups and/or government bureaucrats start to ask questions about this then better answers will be needed. It might need a return to displacement mode only for large heavy boats.

 

[Bouba]

The big difference is that this isn't based on there being no oil left, it's based on humanity as a whole deciding it's best left where it is.

UK carmakers will have to meet electric car sales targets despite Sunak U-turn

Simple maths gives us the result of applying those quotas to average annual car sales. Whether anything changes in the timescale we will see, but the point is that it's coming. Half by 2035, or 2038 doesn't change the end state, just the timing.

For boats it may well be effectively after the majority of those posting here have swallowed the anchor, but even without any active political interference, it's hard to see Diesel boats being practical past the point that road fuel usage drops to basically zero.

That will be our problem as boaters.....as the infrastructure retreats further and further....it will get harder and more expensive for marinas to stock fuel...and when they reach a maintenance milestone, cleaning, repairing, replacing tanks or pumps...might decide to knock it on the head entirely

 

[Lodestone]

well there is this: www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

but after all the National Grid is only responsible for the supply and distribution of all UK electricity, so what do they know.......
Meanwhile I am off out today doing yet another 300+ mile ev journey using the non-existant infratstructure. I may be some time...

So, contrary to your comment #36, there are people regularly doing long distance journeys

 

[Bouba]

In my inbox yesterday came an ad for a 35 meter, €24 million superyacht that claimed to be a hybrid.....apparently it was a two million euro option from the yard

 

[LBRodders]

The real benefits in an EV are within automation. With that comes the benefits of driverless tech, not owning one, the charging faff, battery depletion with age issues et al.
So I believe personal ownership will go prior to the end of ICEV. Its the only credible way forward. I think the % of young people who own are car is incredibly low.

So, it could and probably should apply to boats. The % of boats in a marina in anyone time averaged over a year must be >95%. Which economically and environmentally is ridiculous.

 

[Lodestone]

As alternatives can't yet cut the mustard for all manner of products derived from oil we will need to continue to extract and refine it. If we don't then we won't have materials for pharmaceuticals, medical plastics and so on. We also need the helium that comes from oil wells for research, to weld or for our sick to have MRI scans. (plea here...helium is in short supply...please don't buy balloons and waste it).

As oil will still need to be refined there will always be a fuels fraction - so what to do with it?

The UK has just committed to 50 years of 2 very thirsty diesel fuelled aircraft carriers. I don't have much faith in the MOD but lets hope they recognise that security means the fuel should be refined in the UK. Militaries run on it and the last time I looked these weren't getting any smaller.

Complete electrification of everything - a monoculture - is a national security risk to start with, especially as we seem to be obsessed with connecting everything that controls anything to the internet.

Unfortunately we have unqualified politicians jumping on policies which, given they struggle to see beyond the next by-election, have unforeseen consequences.

Germany is already having problems controlling its grid frequency as a result of the green transition.

There is a place for electric drive in many things. It has been a feature of boating for a very long time and I have to say that it is simple bliss to glide along a river on an electric boat.

The most convincing and informative data about carbon in the atmosphere is the Keeling curve, but what to do about it. It certainly makes sense to stop releasing all the carbon that millions of years of natural atmospheric processing has locked away. Yet for the foreseable future oil has to be with us - in many cases there is no alternative other then de-industrialisation in that sector. It is reasonable to make as many changes as we can but we need to be realistic about where we should stop and this includes the social engineering aspect.

We need a global mixed energy economy, and even if a high energy density 'fuel' comes along for traction, we will still need a petroleum industry for all the other things it provides. As a result we will need to keep oil wells relatively economic if we are not to make their products unaffordable for the average citizen to access.

 

[Fire99]

The real benefits in an EV are within automation. With that comes the benefits of driverless tech, not owning one, the charging faff, battery depletion with age issues et al.
So I believe personal ownership will go prior to the end of ICEV. Its the only credible way forward. I think the % of young people who own are car is incredibly low.

So, it could and probably should apply to boats. The % of boats in a marina in anyone time averaged over a year must be >95%. Which economically and environmentally is ridiculous.

Environmentally, having a boat sitting in a marina, in the big scale of things will be a pretty negligible impact on anything. Considering an example single UK ferry burns 3.5 tonnes of fuel per HOUR, even 200 boats in a marina bobbing around is really going to affect very little. Economically?? I've bought a few boats over the years and economics has one of the first things to forget. I would say most boaters buy boats with the heart and as long as they can just about afford to keep it, that's as far as economics go.

 

[Fire99]

so why did he waste so much time using pointless 50kW chargers when he should be using 900V 350kW chargers or 450V 150kW chargers - of which there are plenty on that route?
so why did he waste so much time charging to 100% when 80 - 90% would have been fine to get the rest of the way?
It was staged - badly.

Then ask yourself, how many people ever actually drive more than 400 miles a day in the UK on anything like a regular basis - like three times a year?

They answered all of the above in videos after the challenge. Since I'm not their PR man nor secretary it may be easier to actually watch the videos and you'll get your answers to these points.

 

[Momac]

I think the % of young people who own are car is incredibly low.

Most of the young people where I work an locally to home live with their parents and have better cars than me.

 

[Momac]

The % of boats in a marina in anyone time averaged over a year must be >95%. Which economically and environmentally is ridiculous.

Its not economically ridiculous for the marina operator.

An unused boat has negligible environmental impact. A few boats used a lot have the same environmental impact as many boats used a little (okay not quite but more or less).
Boat ownership is good for wellbeing so justifies any perceived inefficiencies or impacts.

 

[Fire99]

Its not economically ridiculous for the marina operator.

An unused boat has negligible environmental impact. A few boats used a lot have the same environmental impact as many boats used a little (okay not quite but more or less).
Boat ownership is good for wellbeing so justifies any perceived inefficiencies or impacts.

Absolutely.. Life isn't just an exercise of balancing spreadsheets and virtue signalling when realtime benefits of doing so are next to zero. Boat ownership is hugely emotive and I know of plenty of people who like to come down and sit on their boat, go nowhere and relax.. And that's just fine.
I try to use mine when I can but each to their own. If you look at the total number of privately owned boats in marinas in the UK and compare that with every other 'life emission' from private vehicles, public vehicles of all forms, aeroplanes, buildings, bla bla bla.. It's barely a dot on football pitch!