Do we now need an electric boat forum???

[jakew009]

Battery life. The average EV battery is estimated to last 10 years. Put some sizeable EV batteries into a boat in let's say some of the harshest environmental conditions, cold, damp, salty air. How long is the battery going to last? How will it be fitted in the boat with a good centralised position for stability? e-Golf in the US, $23000 for a replacement battery. Tesla - $12000-$22000. How will you get it out of the boat?

Just on this one point, lithium batteries (generally speaking) die because of use, not through aging. A big boat battery that's cycled once in a blue moon could be expected to last decades if it could be suitably protected from the environment.

 

[Fire99]

Just on this one point, lithium batteries (generally speaking) die because of use, not through aging. A big boat battery that's cycled once in a blue moon could be expected to last decades if it could be suitably protected from the environment.

Well you say that. A quote from EVConnect - "Storage and operating temperatures have a huge impact on EV battery longevity; in general, warmer climates negatively affect the lifespan of an EV battery." I think electric battery resilience in boats is a far from proven tech in general operation.

 

[Fire99]

The people buying the electric boats will be those with cash to burn who can afford to buy a new petrol powered boat today. They will be storing it in a posh marina and couldn't give a flying fig about the health of the battery in 10 years time.

But if you have cash to burn, why bother with the inconvenience of a battery powered boat? Unless you have some inherent hatred of fossil fuels, if you have big pockets, you'll go for what is the most convenient. Good range, good performance, no grief as you can refuel just about anywhere in a matter of minutes (or maybe an hour if your boat is big enough).

Other than the questionable environmental benefits, a new conventional fuelled boat is going to be quiet enough, faster and far more usable.. Why go electric?

 

[Tranona]

I think it is a mistake to see these kinds of boats as a replacement for existing types of boat. They will open up a new market with some overlap on existing day boats. However if you boat in the kind of environment shown in the video they make sense. However such places are limited in the UK which is why the developments are coming from places like Scandinavia and the US that have many large open areas of generally sheltered water where that boat makes a lot of sense. Drystack would also make sense and the infrastructure for that is already in place in many suitable areas.

 

[Fire99]

They will open up a new market with some overlap on existing day boats.

I think this is a good point. It may attract a new 'wave' of boaters that look at using boats in different ways to how I certainly would. An additional string to the bow rather than a replacement one..

 

[jakew009]

But if you have cash to burn, why bother with the inconvenience of a battery powered boat? Unless you have some inherent hatred of fossil fuels, if you have big pockets, you'll go for what is the most convenient. Good range, good performance, no grief as you can refuel just about anywhere in a matter of minutes (or maybe an hour if your boat is big enough).

Other than the questionable environmental benefits, a new conventional fuelled boat is going to be quiet enough, faster and far more usable.. Why go electric?

Same reason people started buying electric Porsches or BMW i8s.

 

[kashurst]

An interesting recent challenge in two youtube channels GeoffBuysCars and MacMaster did an old BMW diesel vs a Porsche Taycan EV from John O'Groats to Lands End. Very interesting outcomes and highlighted some serious EV issues.

What it highlighted is that the so called MacMaster is an imbecile, deliberately making it all look "oh it's just too difficult" to get Youtube clicks. 2 days to do 800 miles in an EV. I have done that easily a few times.

 

[Bouba]

I think a fair bit of qualification is needed on this one. Around 2.8% of cars on UK roads are EV's. The National Grid only in the last week were looking at discounting some electric supply to people if they cut usage at peak times due to supply concerns during winter months. We are not a nation in any way able to significantly increase our electricity demands..

EV's 'running successfully' depends really on your usage patterns. Home charger, and predominantly short urban use? Probably working very well. Regular longer distances, relying on public chargers, certainly a different story with much more varied experiences. An interesting recent challenge in two youtube channels GeoffBuysCars and MacMaster did an old BMW diesel vs a Porsche Taycan EV from John O'Groats to Lands End. Very interesting outcomes and highlighted some serious EV issues.

Electric cars currently work to some degree because there are so few of them. Without a complete usage culture change, make EV's even 10 or 20 % of the car network and watch the deck of cards fall down.

Another issue to consider is price per KWh. The nearest car EV charger to the marina is 49p/kWh for slow. 57p/kWh faster and 67p/kWh very fast. That's way way above even top electric supply tarrifs. Looking at those two Youtube channels, leaving aside the EV driver ending up in tears and had a nose bleed AND being over 4 hours late on a 7 hour journey (2nd leg from midlands to LE) it cost the diesel £122.08 in fuel and the EV £259.87 in electricity. Add in smart charging at the marina, what rate will the electricity be at?

Battery life. The average EV battery is estimated to last 10 years. Put some sizeable EV batteries into a boat in let's say some of the harshest environmental conditions, cold, damp, salty air. How long is the battery going to last? How will it be fitted in the boat with a good centralised position for stability? e-Golf in the US, $23000 for a replacement battery. Tesla - $12000-$22000. How will you get it out of the boat?

Yes large diesel boats do have failures and tank failures etc but there are a huge number running 30 year old engines and 30 year old fuel tanks.

Going back to Artemis, the EV work boat. It's 12metres in a workboat layout. How was it charged at the marina? With a diesel generator. That's one single EV workboat.

I can only look at the environment that I tend to work in so this is UK/Ireland specific but shifting to electric in both size of boat and volume of boats is full of issues compared to the novelty one offs and little handheld outboards that can mask the issues.

The price you quoted for electricity from a EV chargers is in fact very cheap...many are significantly higher. All except Tesla....which are half your quoted price.
But getting sufficient electricity (at reasonable prices) will be a challenge for many marinas if a large minority of people go electric boating

 

[colhel]

My opinion is there's a lot of advantages to electric propulsion and though range is a factor, I wonder if it's a big an issue for the average boater. Also the R&D will be paid for by the first few paying a premium and ironing out any issues

 

[Martxer]

This seems a much more viable option.

 

[ari]

Same reason people started buying electric Porsches or BMW i8s.

Because there is ultra low company car tax? I don't think that will work for a boat...

 

[ari]

This seems a much more viable option.

Viable for what? Take a diesel boat, add masses of weight, cost, complexity and required space for batteries and extra motors, mix in the ecological damage of creating and disposing of the lithium batteries and gain what? A few minutes 'emission free' running which will never ever offset the emissions of creating and disposing of all that junk in the first place and increased fuel burn/emissions when planing?

Hybrid cars work by harnessing the energy wasted in coasting dow hills or braking to a halt. Not many hills or reasons to brake at sea. You're just burning a load more fossil fuel to drag around a load of weight all so that you can claim to be (but actually not be) green?

 

[Martxer]

Viable for what? Take a diesel boat, add masses of weight, cost, complexity and required space for batteries and extra motors, mix in the ecological damage of creating and disposing of the lithium batteries and gain what? A few minutes 'emission free' running which will never ever offset the emissions of creating and disposing of all that junk in the first place and increased fuel burn/emissions when planing?

Hybrid cars work by harnessing the energy wasted in coasting dow hills or braking to a halt. Not many hills or reasons to brake at sea. You're just burning a load more fossil fuel to drag around a load of weight all so that you can claim to be (but actually not be) green?

More viable than full electric

 

[Fire99]

What it highlighted is that the so called MacMaster is an imbecile, deliberately making it all look "oh it's just too difficult" to get Youtube clicks. 2 days to do 800 miles in an EV. I have done that easily a few times.

I think that's unfair. They always intended to do the trip in two days with the 'official' stop off in the midlands. so that wasn't a factor in the 'good or bad'. MacMaster isn't everyone's cup of tea but I had a good watch of the videos and there was no evidence that he was deliberately throwing the challenge.

 

[Fire99]

I had a good read of a fairly recent MBY article on the 'best 37 all electric boats'. Now as a caveat I'll say I have no inherent love of diesel. It's a smelly ol substance and I don't find diesel engines particularly nice to listen to either so the concept of near silent, clean (non smelly) propulsion that doesn't need a million gallons (ish) during oil changes and all the other fun truck engine maintenance, would be appealing... BUT....

When I look at the small print carefully... The boats are incredibly expensive and just picking one out of the hat, the Frauscher 740 Mirage.. 24ft. £216k plus VAT. Top speed 26kts.. Yay!! at that speed range.... at best 17nm!!!!! 60nm if you sit at 5kts. Unless you really really love electricity and you own a number of boats for different purposes (which kinda throws any kind of environmental credentials into the bin), then this just a vanity project or virtue signalling. Looks all clean and 'green' but is practically borderline on pointless.

 

[kashurst]

I think that's unfair. They always intended to do the trip in two days with the 'official' stop off in the midlands. so that wasn't a factor in the 'good or bad'. MacMaster isn't everyone's cup of tea but I had a good watch of the videos and there was no evidence that he was deliberately throwing the challenge.

so why did he waste so much time using pointless 50kW chargers when he should be using 900V 350kW chargers or 450V 150kW chargers - of which there are plenty on that route?
so why did he waste so much time charging to 100% when 80 - 90% would have been fine to get the rest of the way?
It was staged - badly.

Then ask yourself, how many people ever actually drive more than 400 miles a day in the UK on anything like a regular basis - like three times a year?

 

[Laser310]

If Britain ever completes the transition away from fossil fuels, the electricity requirement to do the things it does now will be 3 or 4 X the present electrical generation.

There is no credible plan to produce, or transmit that much electricity

Therefore, Britain will not be doing the things it does today

Electricity will be rationed; either by price in a market.., or by some allotment scheme, or a combination.

Either way, there will not be electricity for charging recreational boat batteries for any normal people.

Sorry...

 

[Bigplumbs]

In your humble opinion. However there are now nearly 1 million electric vehicles running successfully on UK roads, so your opinion is not shared by at least a million others.
Certainly a LOT less mature for EV boats, but equally sales of electric outboards are now mainstream at smaller end.

Do you remember CB radios….. see if you can spot one now

 

[Bigplumbs]

I think a fair bit of qualification is needed on this one. Around 2.8% of cars on UK roads are EV's. The National Grid only in the last week were looking at discounting some electric supply to people if they cut usage at peak times due to supply concerns during winter months. We are not a nation in any way able to significantly increase our electricity demands..

EV's 'running successfully' depends really on your usage patterns. Home charger, and predominantly short urban use? Probably working very well. Regular longer distances, relying on public chargers, certainly a different story with much more varied experiences. An interesting recent challenge in two youtube channels GeoffBuysCars and MacMaster did an old BMW diesel vs a Porsche Taycan EV from John O'Groats to Lands End. Very interesting outcomes and highlighted some serious EV issues.

Electric cars currently work to some degree because there are so few of them. Without a complete usage culture change, make EV's even 10 or 20 % of the car network and watch the deck of cards fall down.

Another issue to consider is price per KWh. The nearest car EV charger to the marina is 49p/kWh for slow. 57p/kWh faster and 67p/kWh very fast. That's way way above even top electric supply tarrifs. Looking at those two Youtube channels, leaving aside the EV driver ending up in tears and had a nose bleed AND being over 4 hours late on a 7 hour journey (2nd leg from midlands to LE) it cost the diesel £122.08 in fuel and the EV £259.87 in electricity. Add in smart charging at the marina, what rate will the electricity be at?

Battery life. The average EV battery is estimated to last 10 years. Put some sizeable EV batteries into a boat in let's say some of the harshest environmental conditions, cold, damp, salty air. How long is the battery going to last? How will it be fitted in the boat with a good centralised position for stability? e-Golf in the US, $23000 for a replacement battery. Tesla - $12000-$22000. How will you get it out of the boat?

Yes large diesel boats do have failures and tank failures etc but there are a huge number running 30 year old engines and 30 year old fuel tanks.

Going back to Artemis, the EV work boat. It's 12metres in a workboat layout. How was it charged at the marina? With a diesel generator. That's one single EV workboat.

I can only look at the environment that I tend to work in so this is UK/Ireland specific but shifting to electric in both size of boat and volume of boats is full of issues compared to the novelty one offs and little handheld outboards that can mask the issues.

Very well put. It more simple terms in the UK the infrastructure ain’t there and never will be despite all the dreamers

 

[Bigplumbs]

I guess that depends on what you mean by “most people”. I would suspect that most powered craft are not the sort of coastal powerboats with cabins that may be most common on this forum.
There are masses of people with PwCs, SIBs, RIBs, small speedboats and inshore watercraft, all of which could be good candidates for electric and or foiling applications (when buying new - per the recent ICOMIA report, unlikely ever to be viable for a retrofit).
Clearly different for a 10+m flybridge cruiser.

Good candidates. You just won’t accept Science and Physics. you need 12 times as much battery mass to 1 liquid fuel mass to achieve the same. Wher you gonna put that lot in a sib. I ain’t seen no sib electric motor that will get you on the plane yet.