PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Some power stations allow for adding extra batteries, but you are still limited to the output power of the inverter.
DIY LiFePo4 installation - Don't do what I did (maybe) . . .
- Thread starter Tradewinds
- Start date
rotrax
Well-known member
The batteries are LiFePo. Not so hazardous by a long chalk.
The reason Bluetti was chosen is that there is a Bluetti UK importer, a 5 year warrantee and a busy FB Group. Little criticism of the product on the facebook group except from a few wally's who expected it to run a fridge, TV set, electric blanket and the internal lamps of a self converted camper van without an electric hookup or solar for far longer than the specs say is possible.
rotrax
Well-known member
Yes, extra battery packs can be linked. This increases, as one would expect, capacity, not output power.
dunedin
Well-known member
Yes but the issue seems to be that many/most insurance companies terms and constraints simply refer to “Lithium batteries” and don’t differentiate between different types - eg LiFePO4. This seems wrong but they write the rules.
RogerJolly
Active member
It's bonkers. We're actually paying for a service but we don't feel like valued customers - we feel like naughty little kids who should know better when we see all these rules.
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
However, buying a service from a company that wants to make profit from your premium. The shareholders will not feel valued if any old risk is accepted. Two sides of the same coin.
Sea Change
Well-known member
Does anybody know how a lithium installation might affect third party only coverage?
Tradewinds
Well-known member
If you watch the Calder/Dr Jan video on the Pants link (Marine How-To) they differentiate between the lithium types but they do suggest LiFePo4 is subject to thermal runaway (seemingly in contradiction to ABYC saying 'safe') so LifePo4 is lumped in with Lithium as used in general Chinese elec scooters etc.
As I previously said - it's their ball - so we're stuck with the situation we've got (at least with Pants, and from what I can see online, Topsail too).
Tradewinds
Well-known member
I know no-one wants to open their own particular can-of-worms but, IMO, the only way to be certain is to ask your insurer who will ask their underwriters
Sea Change
Well-known member
I'd rather somebody else went first...I know no-one wants to open their own particular can-of-worms but, IMO, the only way to be certain is to ask your insurer who will ask their underwriters
Sea Change
Well-known member
Yet in the real world, most half decent LFP installations will be safer than your average lead acid setup.
On the boats I've bought which had lead acid, there was no master fuse, and without a BMS there is nothing other than operator caution to protect the batteries from shorts or reverse polarity charging. In every case, the batteries were kept in unsealed locations where they could outgas hydrogen.
But this is all tickety boo, apparently.
Tradewinds
Well-known member
Out of interest there's a parallel thread going on Cruiser's forum. (US centric).
Insurance with LFP - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Insurance with LFP - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
lustyd
Well-known member
Not just likened, they are called solar generators.
I spotted that too. Also in contradiction to the now hundreds of tests conducted and videoed for YouTube
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
Calder is a journalist, he has no real World experience, no better than a lot of random You Tubers. Lots of people treat him like some mystical guru.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
Well I've been there and done that. Broker is Bavaria Insurance in Munich (planes and boats) and the insurer is AXA Versicherung AG. The application form had a question about Lithium batteries on board.I'd rather somebody else went first...
I asked the broker about the LiFePO4 house batteries I was intending to install and was told they are not interested in that chemistry, it's the type usually associated with propulsion (that catch fire spectacularly on TikTok and YouTube) ... I answered on the application that I was intending to use LiFePO4 batteries for the house bank, the premium didn't change and the policy is currently in force. The batteries go in next month.
Obviously this is not the UK but it worked for me. I have disclosed my "material fact" and it was accepted without penalty or additional stipulations by the insurers.
migs
Active member
Boat insurers insist that lithium batteries must be ‘professionally installed’ to ‘suitable industry standards’, but what exactly does that mean?
In the UK, boat electricians aren’t actually required to have any particular professional qualifications or certification (such the IET’s EngTech or America’s ABYC). In fact, anyone can call themselves a ‘boat electrician’, so how on earth are boat owners supposed to ensure that installations on their boats are ‘professionally installed’?
As for ‘suitable industry standards’:
RCL (the UK spin-off from RCD) haven’t yet issued any recommendations for Lithium battery installations, and anyway, RCD/ RCL certification is aimed at new boats.
PD CEN ISO/TS 23625:2022, PD CEN ISO/TS 23625:2023 and PD CEN ISO/TS 23625:2025 have some recommendations for lithium battery installations, but unfortunately these are delightfully vague compared to ABYC’s offerings. ISO standards typically cost £100 each, and it seems most unlikely that all boatyard electricians have access to a copy, or the inclination to study them. Incidentally, ISO insist that lithium battery BMSs must communicate with charging sources (such as alternators), despite the fact that most commercial lithium batteries can’t do this. Does this mean that virtually all UK lithium boat battery systems are non-compliant, so these boats are un-insured?
The Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) ‘Installed Lithium-ion Batteries and Systems’ is for inland waterways. They advise ‘do not leave equipment on charge when you are asleep or away from vessel’ and ‘disconnect, when batteries finish charging’; which does makes you wonder whether the writers have ever actually been on a boat…
The MCA’s MGN 550 (M+F) ‘Guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries’ is essentially for big ships i.e. ‘It is recommended that person(s) working in in a battery room, or in a space containing a battery box, should carry an Emergency Escape Breathing Device (EEBD)’; this standard is not really relevant to small boats
So, it seems that UK insurers are asking for the impossible; lithium batteries must be ‘professionally installed’ by an industry that doesn’t require professional qualifications, to ‘industry standards’ that are not actually specified. Even if UK standards were cited, those that currently exist are either not in common use, are not particularly specific, or are not relevant. All a bit of a mess really, and an absurd situation for boat owners…
In the UK, boat electricians aren’t actually required to have any particular professional qualifications or certification (such the IET’s EngTech or America’s ABYC). In fact, anyone can call themselves a ‘boat electrician’, so how on earth are boat owners supposed to ensure that installations on their boats are ‘professionally installed’?
As for ‘suitable industry standards’:
RCL (the UK spin-off from RCD) haven’t yet issued any recommendations for Lithium battery installations, and anyway, RCD/ RCL certification is aimed at new boats.
PD CEN ISO/TS 23625:2022, PD CEN ISO/TS 23625:2023 and PD CEN ISO/TS 23625:2025 have some recommendations for lithium battery installations, but unfortunately these are delightfully vague compared to ABYC’s offerings. ISO standards typically cost £100 each, and it seems most unlikely that all boatyard electricians have access to a copy, or the inclination to study them. Incidentally, ISO insist that lithium battery BMSs must communicate with charging sources (such as alternators), despite the fact that most commercial lithium batteries can’t do this. Does this mean that virtually all UK lithium boat battery systems are non-compliant, so these boats are un-insured?
The Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) ‘Installed Lithium-ion Batteries and Systems’ is for inland waterways. They advise ‘do not leave equipment on charge when you are asleep or away from vessel’ and ‘disconnect, when batteries finish charging’; which does makes you wonder whether the writers have ever actually been on a boat…
The MCA’s MGN 550 (M+F) ‘Guidance for safe design, installation and operation of lithium-ion batteries’ is essentially for big ships i.e. ‘It is recommended that person(s) working in in a battery room, or in a space containing a battery box, should carry an Emergency Escape Breathing Device (EEBD)’; this standard is not really relevant to small boats
So, it seems that UK insurers are asking for the impossible; lithium batteries must be ‘professionally installed’ by an industry that doesn’t require professional qualifications, to ‘industry standards’ that are not actually specified. Even if UK standards were cited, those that currently exist are either not in common use, are not particularly specific, or are not relevant. All a bit of a mess really, and an absurd situation for boat owners…
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
I've said pretty much that, more than once in this (and other) threads. It's a mess.
FYI, i do have several different editions of the ISO, the earlier ones that had separate editions for AC and DC and the later combined ones. I have studied them and work to them where practical.
Tradewinds
Well-known member
Calder & Dr Jan appear to have an online business which is teaching marine electrical systems including LiFePo4 installs and issuing course accreditations to those who need them. Hmmmmm
.I think the term is "skin in the game".
Sea Change
Well-known member
'No real would experience' seems a little harsh, given he's been an active cruiser for decades.
You could maybe say he lacks the appropriate training and qualifications, although we're going round in circles about what those actually are
PaulRainbow
Well-known member
I have many customers who have been cruising for many decades, i was called out to one a few weeks ago, to re-set the RCD !'No real would experience' seems a little harsh, given he's been an active cruiser for decades.
You could maybe say he lacks the appropriate training and qualifications, although we're going round in circles about what those actually are
On the other hand, we have some very knowledgeable boat owners on this forum.
But my point was, Calder portrays himself as an expert in all things boating, he isn't, but it helps to sell his books.
