Ditch the Engine - part 3

[Thirdman]

As a final posting on this subject I would like to point out a couple of things.
To sail a pure engineless sailing craft takes more skill than one with engine reliance - we recognise that and deep down we respect that, but find it hard to admit it openly when affronted with it. One either sails a pure sailing craft or one does not. If one has a craft with an engine then one is a motor-sailor. Motor-sailors will bristle when told this, but deep down they know this to be true.

Jay (Jerome) Fitzgerald would laugh loudly if he read the post (he won't be reading it as I doubt he would even know this site exists - as god a site as it is I might add) by one well meaning gentleman that a sailor in a pure sailing craft is practicing bad seamanship. That has got to be a joke surely. Shipping Lanes? If one finds oneself in Shipping lanes at a most difficult time then that is bad seamanship wether in a pure sailing craft or a motorsailor - surely. You have to do your homework in the area you sail or are sailing to - and then you have to do extra homework again - if you want to sail engineless - and if that means avoiding shipping lanes at certain times due to lack of wind, fog, whatever, or at least spending as little time as possible in shipping lanes, hopefully on a course adjusted to get through the lanes as quickly as possible - then that what is it means. If that means avoiding your Straits of Dover at certain times, then so be it. If your engine breaks down in the Straits and you haven't paid attention to the weather and the wind dies on you, then you are in trouble. What are the breakdown statistics for plesure craft in the Dover-Straits I wonder? Remember a 1% failure to make port is a 100% failure. Ah, won't happen to me you say. Of course not. It never does, does it Mr Motorsailor.
Do your homework before setting sail.
This will mean paying more attention to the weather....and thats exactly the point on engineless sailing - you can't take shortcuts in any area of seamanship wether it be wind, weather, tide, dockhandling, ropework, rigging etc etc. You will be a more skilled seaman - period. Starting to get it are we?
The exuses of shipping lanes, tides, marinas, too crowded, e.t.c, e.t..c are just that...excuses.
Jay has written a couple of books, and at the risk of looking like "advertising"...I will name the 2 books he has written to date. "Wind & Tide" and also "Sailing with Purpose"...you can order these through the larger internet bookshops, however I will not provide you with a direct link rather let you search them out for yourself if you look hard enough.

Fair winds to those that wish to challenge themselves in this strange "new" thing called sailing engineless. And happy motorsailing to the rest of you.


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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

oh god why is this still going on

I am starting to wonder what you are attempting to achieve, or are you just bored sitting at a desk somewhere in the USA and thought a little trolling would while away a few tedious hours.

In response to your post:

One either sails a pure sailing craft or one does not. If one has a craft with an engine then one is a motor-sailor. Motor-sailors will bristle when told this, but deep down they know this to be true.

I sail a boat with engines, oh god two of them, so I must be twice as bad!, When I have my engine(s) running without sails I am motoring. When I have my engines running with sails I am motorsailing; and, this is going to be a tough one for you I think, when I have my sails up and no engines, yes! I am sailing,

If you allow a scull onboard your pretentious vessels, then does that not make you rowing boats or tenders, it is the same idiotic argument as you give.

Shipping Lanes? If one finds oneself in Shipping lanes at a most difficult time then that is bad seamanship wether in a pure sailing craft or a motorsailor - surely. You have to do your homework in the area you sail or are sailing too

Unfortunately, like Canute, we can not control such features as the weather, although I expect some might think that NOAA or other such weather prediction services are infallible. We on this side of the pond understand that these are just predictions based upon historical data and a bit of intuition. Otherwise all the worlds cargo vessels would still operate sailing ships, they don't and neither can a leisure sailor who must return to work refreshed on Monday morning in order to finance his/her passion.

You also have absolutely no knowledge of how busy the English Channel shipping is, otherwise you would not write in such a self-righteous way. Many people do sail without an engine across the channel, but they are trusting that 200,000 tons of fast moving steel will be observing correct lookouts and ensure a wide passage of said yacht. Unfortunately the world climate of cutting everything to the bone has proved this to be a very long shot gamble and many recent events have shown this.

The exuses of shipping lanes, tides, marinas, too crowded, e.t.c, e.t..c are just that...excuses.

No, an excuse is when you have been caught out and attempt to cover it up by applying warped logic, for example, I am late for work because I missed the bus. You were late for work because you got up late and missed the bus, you were not late because you missed the bus, ok, clear.

A reason or reasoned decision is based upon circumstances and control, we, the great unwashed in your little world, have made a decision to fit engines to our vessels for our own comfort and the extra control it gives, most leisure sailors have to work. They devote whole weekends to a passion, but then have to work next morning. You sir, obviously have all the time in the world to sail around the intercontinental coastal ways with you engine-less vessel and have all this time to preach about this new found glory.

Well as a small eye opener, everyone on here could also do that if given the time or inclination, but choose not to. You also mention marinas and anchorages, well you must have very little experience with marinas if you think everyone should sail or scull onto their berth. In some cases the currents through the marina can be (as said in your other non informative threads) 4-5 kts. I would dearly like to see you scull my boat onto a finger berth somewhere in the clutter of berths on an average marina, but first you must insure her remembering to inform the insurance companies of your intentions.

Please remind us of your intentions, this is the 3rd thread you have now started basically preaching the same thing, a little like your governments foreign policy you are choosing not to listen to answers you are being given or those you disagree with you cast aside as wrong or ill informed.

I suggest you either listen and accept that other people have equal sailing skills to you and yours but choose a different method, or stop resurrecting a dead thread.

Fairwinds.




<hr width=100% size=1>J

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>

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[Thirdman]

Re: oh god why is this still going on

Well Sir
"Why is this still going on".....well if it annoys you that much why did you respond to my post then? Because I touched a nerve, and you know it. It annoys you that there are some people have to gall to want and actually do sail engineless. You want to do it too. I know you do. You don't want that noisy smelly lump of metal anymore than I do. But you fear the pressures of your motor-sailing buddies and their latest gadgets (mostly unneccessary), you fear you may be late for work on Monday morning, you fear breaking away from the what is seen as "normal" or "prudent". Hey, and it is a hard decision to make I'll grant you that. Why did you start sailing in the first place?
The number of variables a sailor on a pure sailing craft must take into account are considerable, varibales the engine makes insignificant. It simply more difficult to make passages under sail alone, and again this is the point. Your ultimate satfisfaction (and your ultimate seamanship), and the lack in your life that you are trying to full by sailing, will be ultimately more satisfying if you eschew the engine. You will be mentally tougher and stronger as a result. Who ever said the sailing was supposed to be easy?
I had a lack in my life and thats why I took up sailing again. Why not grab the ferry, or catch the plane then? No, that would not fulfull that lack I had.

On another matter: I enjoyed your reply, but remember Bush & Blair are buddies. I'd have us out of Iraq - if you care for my preference.

Fair winds (and I really mean that) to you Sir.

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[ranga]

Wiggly worm

The wiggly worm on this hook is bound to get a few more bites.

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[Thirdman]

Re: Wiggly worm

No Ranga, not the idea at all.
I hope I at least have made people think a little. Why blindly go through life following everyone elses lead. Why not question that which is taken for granted.
Whats that old saying...."the common man keeps the wheel turning, but it was the uncommon man that invented the wheel". Obviously Sailing a pure sailing craft these days is uncommon, and to suggest you do otherwise will elicit many excuses as to why it should remain uncommon.
One more thing to say before I say adios, pulling out the engine and plugging up the aperture will make your craft that much more manouveralbe and faster on all points of sail that it has to be seen to be beleived! That is assuming you have a craft that was built to actually be sailed. A lot of present day craft built as flimisly as they are just could not hack a 10-15 hour bash to windward. Better make sure your craft is built strong enough should you wish to join us engineless "nutters".
If I were in England one craft I would choose would be a "Twister" or "Contessa 26". An American equivalent would possibly be a "Triton" or "Alberg 30" e.t.c. I know of a good dutch boat "Vega" about 27 ft l.o.d. Maybe if you wish to sail the beamy mass produced, flimisly built (but expensive) motor-sailors of today, then perhaps you should keep that engine. But watch the Lee please! I'd hate to be in one of the modern built craft facing a long bash to windward to avoid a lee shore.
One more thing, Jay Fitzgerald is a strong personality, this comes through loudly on his website and in his books - and the abruptness of the breakding down of firmly held beliefs is quite hard for a lot of people to take. The truth does hurt, it is hard. Just like sailing to weather, who ever said that the truth can't whack you hard?


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[Aardee]

While I admire the admirable intention, the cult-esque, near-religious zeal of your postings are a bit worrying. It's only a short hop from Jay Fitzgerald to the Reverend Moon to David Koresh.

Now, I'm off block up my apertures & use the engine as a mud weight. All repeat after me "Ditch the donk, ditch the donk, ditch the donk..."

Ommm.

Graham.

<hr width=100% size=1>"I am a bear of very little brain and long words bother me..."

 

[Aeolus_IV]

hear, hear. (nm)

.


<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://users.swing.be/FDB/centurion/index2.html>Centurion 32 Web site</A>

 

[cliff]

O.K. so you play on the intracoastal (or is it intercoastal) waterways across the pond where to be engineless is acceptable but over on this side of the pond sailing is a little different particularly round the west coast of Scotland. There are many places not accessible to pure sail power and I don't give a monkey's f@*& how good a sailor you think you are. OK you can miss these sorts of places out if you wish - your loss. One springs to mind straight away is the Cuan Sound - looks ok on the chart but check out the tidal atlas and the pilotage books and you will find it is not so easy to navigate your way through even under auxiliary motor power although 000's of us "Motor Sailors" do it every year. There again I really would like to see you get up Loch Nan Ceall to Arisaig under pure sail power. I have done it once and with the best will in the world I would not do it again - I value my boat and my crew too much to take unnecessary and darn right stupid risks when it is far safer and much more sensible to drop my sails, kick start the old iron donkey and motor in through the obstacle course under full control.

I am sure other members of this forum can come up with numerous other locations where it is considered either impossible, or even suicidal, to enter under pure sail power.

What about the Crinan Canal or the Caledonian Canal? can't really sail through them but it is a good chance to charge the batteries up as one leisurely motors through from the Clyde to Jura or up into Loch Ness.

As for sailing into marinas and onto a finger / berth, been there, done that, got the "tee" shirt and a lot of applause from the on-lookers. This was followed a few days later by a rather nice letter from the marina management complimenting me on my "boat handling skills" and going on to advise me if I ever pulled a stunt like that again I would be banned from the marina. Nice chaps really, even went as far as to say if my auxiliary wouldn't start all I had to do was sail to the entrance, call them on the radio and they would send their tug out for me free of charge.

Talking of "Tee shirts" and sailing to windward, done that, 16hrs fighting my way through a force 8, wind and sea "on the nose" the whole time so I guess my little "plastic boat" is strong enough. I think you will find many members of this forum have done similiar and more - I mean, for example, the Biscay crossing can be "fun".

On this side of the pond we do not really take to ass-holes / showoffs who needlessly endanger either their own boat/crew or that of others although I guess if you are out in the boonies on a swinging mooring you can do pretty much as you like.

Best thing, imo, is for you to stay across the pond any carry on with your style of sailing and we on this side of the pond, being more familiar with our tidal conditions and local regulations/constraints, will continue with ours.

BTW a motorboat is a boat thats ONLY means of propelling itself is by its motor(s) i.e. NO sails. A motor sailor is loosely defined as a sailboat thats main means of propulsion is its motor(s) but also has sails. (Motor sailors tend to be heavy and have a different hull design to sailing boats hence htey tend not to sail too well under sail power alone). Sailboats on the other hand are those whose primary means of propulsion are its sails but are normally fitted with an AUXILLIARY motor either inboard or outboard.

 

[Tiger Rag]

Couldn't have said it better myself, perfect response IMO.

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[Robin]

Oh dear Thirdman (what happened to one and two??)

Enjoy your engineless sailing by all means but never assume it makes you a better seaman than others, that is frankly insulting.

Quite plainly you do NOT appreciate the differences in location. Dover Straits is just one narrow end of the English Channel, the same ships travel the whole length of it at speeds up to 27kts (a recent collision in thick fog was between a container ship and a yacht, with the ship doing 27kts). There is no time when there is NOT a stream of said ships, day or night, weekday or weekend, fog or clear, calm or gales. Additionally there are continuous cross channel ferries (speeds 16kts to 40kts, fog or clear) to dodge as well. We take the weather here largely as it comes, if we only ever sailed with a perfect sailing forecast then we would need another hobby/sport as a fill in or just sail (or drift) around in circles in the bay around the corner. We get wind AND fog together - sailing in F6 with 25yd visibility in a fog bank that was NOT forecast is not that unusual. Of course many of us have radar and battery power to run it, courtesy of an engine, as well as running our nav lights, nav systems etc.

Try entering a harbour (note harbour NOT marina) where the only channel is but 60yds wide, takes multiple turns, has a tidal current running, 'dead' wind areas and car ferries that pass every 20 minutes. Yes there are days it is possible to sail in or out safely without interfering with others, but believe me they are very few. This is where the most famous engineless sailors Larry & Lynn Pardey fell foul of our little local difficulties and ran aground on the mud. Famously they admitted an engine in this area might be a good idea - well probably 20,000 or more of us DO sail in this area. By the way I have sailed into and out of here right up to and onto and out of a berth but if I waited for an opportunity to do it again it might need to be at night or midwinter!

Why do you state that we would 'fail' to reach port if the engine breaks down? What do you think we would do, sit there and cry? There are many on this forum with transatlantic passages on their CV - that precludes engine use simply by fuel capacity other than for charging.

Get a life Mr Thirdman, or an attitude transplant. We all enjoy being afloat and how we choose to do it does not make us better or worse than anyone else afloat, certainly not holier than thou. That is very much the attitude of Mr 'you will have democracy if we have to nuke you all to enforce it' Bush and his lap dog Blair. Neither they or yourself I suspect represent the real feelings of people either side of the pond, sailing or world policing.

Robin

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[Metabarca]

I didn't realise the Hamish community was into sailing!
Seriously tho', why stop at engines? Navigators managed for centuries without clocks to check their longitude, without compasses to discover America (no I don't mean Columbus). Hey, Heyerdahl seemed to think you could cross the ocean with just some straw!
I can't see the sense of this evangelist, revivalist stance. Each to his gout and each to his conditions: I've never done it, but I imagine crossing the English Channel without the assurance of an engine should something go awry, would be a little worrying: the weather is fickle, it changes unpredictably and the Channel is more like a motorway than a waterway. Sure, I could cross the M1 on foot, but God gave us bridges. Why risk life and limb?
Finally, to transpose the Thirdman's argument to another field, perhaps the US Army might be informed that if they were to use bows and arrows and spears rather than x trillion tons of HE, they might find it "ultimately more satisfying" and prove themselves "mentally tougher and stronger as a result." Clearly nonsense.
Returning to sailing, I see good seamanship as involving a safe passage for oneself, one's own and other vessels commensurate to my interest, which is sailing, not motoring. That means I use the sails whenever I can, but when there is a risk to myself or others, on with the donkey! Where is the virtue in the purist approach? Would you advocate no VHF on the basis that this too allows for 'bad seamanship' (sending out a mayday if sinking, my! what lack of foresight!) in the form of an 'artificial lifeline'? To close, I also go climbing at times, and am always firmly stitched to the rock with a rope. A few choose to climb without a rope, some on climbs of a grade where I choose to rope up, others at the hardest grades. I think they're bonkers but it's their right to do as they wish, just as others might think I'm bonkers as they stare at me from the footpath. However, I doubt that for their part, they consider my approach as defiling the pure sport of alpinism. Each of us has simply chosen the appropriate level of risk for the conditions. And, to carry the analogy into sailing, just as it would be foolish for a climber to climb unroped on a cliff with many other climbers on it - his slip could cause much grief - so it would be foolish to make a virtue of sailing (or rowing) in the complex, crowded conditions in and near our marinas.

<hr width=100% size=1>Adriatic links here: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.comoy.com/saillinks.html>http://www.comoy.com/saillinks.html</A>

 

[Twister_Ken]

Get real

Thirdman,

If you examine your body closely you may find a socket into which you can plug a reality feed. I'd recommend that you do.

Certainly, the son of God, crewed by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, might be able to sail into a Solent marina berth, but the rest of us rely on bhp for very good reasons.

As to planning for decent winds before sailing in busy waters, on Monday we entered the Needles Channel (1/2 mile wide, 3 miles long, jaggy rocks on one side, ship-swallowing shingle bank on other, tides running through it at up to 4 kts) a couple of hours before sunset expecting to do so with a SW F6 up the chuff. It was actually an unadvertised flat calm. Thorneycroft obliged where wind didn't. (Sure we could have ghosted into Alum bay, dropped the hook and waited for the wind to fill in, but I, for one, had wife and children waiting for me at home, and a client expecting a story the next morning).

I pride myself on being able to sail more or less anywhere in a handy boat, providing there is a modicum of breeze. But too little or too much and I'm happy to be in a "motorsailer".

Amen

BTW, if you find yourself standing alone, while everybody else holds an opposed opinion, you really should take the time to consider whether they are right and you are wrong. Marching to the beat of a different drum is all well and good, as long as you trust your drummer.

BTW2. Don Street who is a sailor I very much admire, runs Iolaire without an engine and is about as expert a seaman as you could ever meet. Didn't stop him wrapping Iolaire around the pierhead when trying to get Iolaire into Limehouse Basin though, and needing a (powered) tow to pluck the boat out of trouble.

BTW3. Do you walk or cycle everywhere or do you sometimes take motorised transport?



<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Twister_Ken]

tee hee

Pleased to see you mentioned the Twister as a boat you might choose if you were in the UK.

Curious though that they are all motor sailers. Every one since the original Twister of Mersea, has an inboard engine fitted. Mine's on its second.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[graham]

Do the marina staff feed your horse when you are out sailing?

Have you ever actually sailed in the UK or are your sanctimonious ramblings based on armchair experience??

You may be surprised to know that in many ways I agree with you.I believe that a lot of yachtsmen are over reliant on Engines, GPS, Chartplotters and the ever growing list of must haves.

Where I differ from you is I dont have the temerity to preach to others how they should enjoy THEIR passtime.

 

[rex]

Re: oh god why is this still going on

"I had a lack in my life and thats why I took up sailing again" - sad soul. I think most of us play on boats because we enjoy it whichever way we choose to do it, and there are many equally valid ways.

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[boatless]

Re: oh god why is this still going on

You don't know Frank 'Murrelet' Mighetto, do you?

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[Guest]

Blimey ....

I have a race boat in Tallinn that rarely has its engine mounted ..... we sail / in / out of Pirita Olympic Marina ..... no problem.

In UK I have a Motorsailer - TRUE MS, not the garbage description made by Thirdman.

Thirdman should educate on the meaning of 'Auxiliary' - a term for many engin installations on Sailboats. A Motorsailer has a Main engine - NOT auxiliary.

Finally - I applaud any that exercise their passion with engine-less boats ... I really enjoy my palying in Tallinn ...... BUT to do it in the average UK marina - the berthing is too tight and crowded, locks in / locks out - waiting berths etc. etc.

As a berth-holder I would not be amused to see any of the average boaties try engine-less berthing etc. near me in a marina. I would expect that the marinas would be difficult to persuade to allow more than one or two in suitable berths to do it anyway.

Everyone to their own - but the original post by Thirdman - having many very good points and very valid about shipping lanes etc. is seriously flawed in its foundation about engine-less and motorsailers .....

My opinion of course !!!! (owner of 2 boats without engines + 1 boat with).


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[BlueSkyNick]

If your original intention was to give Jay and the website some publicity, you've succeeded here. Shame its all so negative.

As you say Jay doesn't know about this forum, I wonder how is he going to feel when he finds out you have been talking through the wrong end of your body to so many people, on his behalf,

<hr width=100% size=1>I'm average size, Its just that everybody else is short.

 

[Romeo]

Cliff wrote: "What about the Crinan Canal or the Caledonian Canal? can't really sail through them but it is a good chance to charge the batteries up as one leisurely motors through from the Clyde to Jura or up into Loch Ness."

Canals are actually quite easy to pass through with no engine, although it may take a bit longer. I rather think it was that Telford was expecting. I have transited the Caledonian Canal in both directions in a boat with no engine, all be it not a particularly large one. Don't shout at me. I am not saying that this in any way makes me a better person than you.

Thirdman, don't be put off by being shouted down. It is not unheard of here if you do not conform to certain norms. Also some posts read as if UK sailing all takes place exclusively from the solent. It does not.

Different people do look for different things from sailing. Personally I like to get away from the pressures of job and home and sail accordingly. I sit in front of a computer all day at work and have no wish to have one at sea. I am regulated by the clock at work: at sea I enjoy being regulated by tide and weather, using them to their best advantage. I choose not to have an engine on the boat. I don't feel however that it makes me a better person or a better boat handler than anyone else. Handling a boat under engine is itself a great skill (which the majority manage to aquire!). I sail in an area where the shipping has plenty of space and where I am mainly going into drying harbours rather than marinas (thank god imho). Even then most of my clubmates thought I was midly eccentric (AT BEST) . However things changed a bit after many read my logbook of a cruise up to Inverness when they saw how much careful planning and thought goes into an engineless voyage. One of the pleasures is discovering new places by not quite ending up where you had originally intended to go, your final destinations being determined by weather and tide rather than purely by you. It does take time, but it is possible to make that time by altering your cruising style (eg not planning to dash acccross to france and back in a weekend if you have to be somewhere else on the Monday). It may not be everyones style but it with correct planning and organisation it is certainly no less safe and I suspect that those who chose to sail without an engine may on average be safer because someone who has consiously chosen not to have an engine is more likely to plan escape routes and fall backs which all sailors should do anyway. Sadly I think that the missionary zeal and implied critisism of engine users rather invites abuse to come flying back the way. Each to their own I say.

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[cliff]

Cliff wrote: "What about the Crinan Canal or the Caledonian Canal? can't really sail through them but it is a good chance to charge the batteries up as one leisurely motors through from the Clyde to Jura or up into Loch Ness."

RobbieW wrote "Canals are actually quite easy to pass through with no engine, although it may take a bit longer. I rather think it was that Telford was expecting. I have transited the Caledonian Canal in both directions in a boat with no engine, all be it not a particularly large one. Don't shout at me. I am not saying that this in any way makes me a better person than you."

What I said was "can't really sail through them" at least last time I went through the crinan one couldn't, something to do with safety on the waterways not to mention it is a real bummer trying to get out of the locks on the down hill run when you are sitting in the bottom of the lock and there is not a breath of air.

Having said that I did see some folk paddling their canoes through and some budding yachtsmen (and girls) playing in a little punt like boat with sails, and fairly moving may I add, so I suppose one could but why would one want to?

The passage through Crinan canal is narrow enough in places without adding to navigation problems - running aground is not uncommon particularily if one has a deep keel - good job there is a speed limit or I would have been well and truely stuck!

There is a good tow path all the way just as Sir John Rennie intended so one could use that and pull the boat through if it was small enough - ain't seen many tow horses recently still one could bring one's own.

Anyway we are getting off track "to have an engine or not, that is the question, weither it is nobler in ones mind to suffer the ridicule of our colonial cousins or say "sod off". Those who like engineless sailing are welcome to it and I am sure they enjoy it so more power (wind power naturally) to them, Me? I'll keep my little auxilliary for those special moments. As someone is supposed to have said "Trust in God, but tie up your horse anyway".


Crinan Canal - A little history
Work started on the canal in 1794 under Sir John Rennie and it was opened in 1801: two years late, significantly over-budget, and not properly finished. Early problems with water levels and collapsing locks and reservoirs led to Thomas Telford being asked to redesign parts of of the canal in 1816. The locks were again reconstructed and deepened in the 1930s, and the canal became the responsibility of British Waterways in 1962.