Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Another post on here prompts me to ask is red diesel different from tax paid diesel other than having had the addition of red dye or is it a less refined product?
Diesel differences
- Thread starter Sailfree
- Start date
TrueBlue
Well-Known Member
Both fuels USED to be the same stuff. However, most road fuel is now low-sulphur (ULSD) so is similar.
There is "discussion" on whether ULSD fuel would cause problems in older marine diesel engines - see other posts.
Why did you ask?
There is "discussion" on whether ULSD fuel would cause problems in older marine diesel engines - see other posts.
Why did you ask?
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
I hear various discussions about things but have normally found on Scuttlebutt someone knows the definitive answer.
I didn't think red diesels powered a fireblade motorcycle very well!
I didn't think red diesels powered a fireblade motorcycle very well!
G
Guest
Guest
Red Diesel was 0.2% Sulphur Diesel - which was same as normal road diesel for many years but with the dye added ... till the advent of sulphur reduction. So generally Red (agricultural diesel) is 0.2% sulphur .... far too high for legal road use even without the dye.... (people did actually try to 'undye' red before till they got caught with the yellow marker !! which cannot be removed.
Road diesel is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel ---- the City Diesel or ULSD as its other name is. It is produced by washing the sulphur out and therefore is near enough same product as 0.2% diesel. It is produced to EN590 specification which at present calls for 50ppm Sulphur and soon to reduce further to less than 35ppm.
In terms of older engines .... its a bit similar to leaded petrol ---- various bist of the engine liked the sulphur level and the diesel was regarded as 'lubricating sufficiently' such as pumps etc. When sulphur is reduced the diesel becomes 'drier' and lubrication quality reduces also. This has led to adding lubricity additive to ULSD stocks to return it to levels of lubrication quality to reduce any damage to engines. For real older engines it can be a problem - but most engines nowadays will run quite happily on ULSD. If you really are worried stick an egg-cupful of lub-oil in the tank !! No seriously unless you run a really old vintage engine - the lubricity issue is sorted.
Ok now ??
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Road diesel is Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel ---- the City Diesel or ULSD as its other name is. It is produced by washing the sulphur out and therefore is near enough same product as 0.2% diesel. It is produced to EN590 specification which at present calls for 50ppm Sulphur and soon to reduce further to less than 35ppm.
In terms of older engines .... its a bit similar to leaded petrol ---- various bist of the engine liked the sulphur level and the diesel was regarded as 'lubricating sufficiently' such as pumps etc. When sulphur is reduced the diesel becomes 'drier' and lubrication quality reduces also. This has led to adding lubricity additive to ULSD stocks to return it to levels of lubrication quality to reduce any damage to engines. For real older engines it can be a problem - but most engines nowadays will run quite happily on ULSD. If you really are worried stick an egg-cupful of lub-oil in the tank !! No seriously unless you run a really old vintage engine - the lubricity issue is sorted.
Ok now ??
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Sailfree
Well-Known Member
great reply - thanks, I am just one of those sad people who like to know the correct answer when others pontificate.
chas
Well-Known Member
Nigel - Thanks for this - very useful. What is your definition of an older engine? Would my 30+ year old Thorneycroft T90 fall into this category?
G
Guest
Guest
Engines .... and diesel ??
I have to be careful here and say that I wouldn't advise anyone about whether their particular engine is ok or not on ULSD.
I have to advise that 'check with your engine supplier / local dealer'. But I know that often they will not actually know or will require a lot more information than just model.
IMHO - and this I give no guarantee - I would have thought with all the lubricity additives going into ULSD now - that you should be ok .... BUT PLEASE DON'T HOLD ME TO THIS.
I am actually thinking to make available various additives on market that are not currently available to the public. But that's another matter and not one for the forums.
One last point .......... and I cannot mention EXACTLY why I make this point .... but many will cotton on I think ....>>
In UK when Red Diesel stops being allowed on private boats - ULSD will be only alternative - unless anyone can get to un-dyed stock. Then you have a C&E problem to sort. So you gaily top up tank with ULSD ..... crying over the dent in wallet !! Your ULSD is now tainted with Red Dye / Yellow Marker. This will occur for some time .... in some cases years before all traces are lost .... So my question is .... how will they police the change ????? Check on Sulphur level of the fuel you have on board - or are they that clever ??
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I have to be careful here and say that I wouldn't advise anyone about whether their particular engine is ok or not on ULSD.
I have to advise that 'check with your engine supplier / local dealer'. But I know that often they will not actually know or will require a lot more information than just model.
IMHO - and this I give no guarantee - I would have thought with all the lubricity additives going into ULSD now - that you should be ok .... BUT PLEASE DON'T HOLD ME TO THIS.
I am actually thinking to make available various additives on market that are not currently available to the public. But that's another matter and not one for the forums.
One last point .......... and I cannot mention EXACTLY why I make this point .... but many will cotton on I think ....>>
In UK when Red Diesel stops being allowed on private boats - ULSD will be only alternative - unless anyone can get to un-dyed stock. Then you have a C&E problem to sort. So you gaily top up tank with ULSD ..... crying over the dent in wallet !! Your ULSD is now tainted with Red Dye / Yellow Marker. This will occur for some time .... in some cases years before all traces are lost .... So my question is .... how will they police the change ????? Check on Sulphur level of the fuel you have on board - or are they that clever ??
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
duncan
Well-Known Member
Re: Engines .... and diesel ??
probably just make it even tougher to source red......more red tape!
probably just make it even tougher to source red......more red tape!
chas
Well-Known Member
Re: Engines .... and diesel ??
Thanks - your last point is interesting - I have a 45 gallon tank and use about 10 galls per year. At a guess, it could be 20 years or so before the dye disappears completely!!
Thanks - your last point is interesting - I have a 45 gallon tank and use about 10 galls per year. At a guess, it could be 20 years or so before the dye disappears completely!!
Mudplugger
Well-Known Member
Re: Engines .... and diesel ??
Nigel, as I understood the implications are, that one will no longer be able to buy red diesel from any of the normal marine suppliers....ergo as most of us saily type people have relatively small tanks, one should become great buddies with the local farming community/ Plant operators...who will continue to have access to red! Perhaps the mobo guy's might consider installing club tank storage? and have a couple of thousand galls deliverd monthly.... Central Heating Oil?
Nigel, as I understood the implications are, that one will no longer be able to buy red diesel from any of the normal marine suppliers....ergo as most of us saily type people have relatively small tanks, one should become great buddies with the local farming community/ Plant operators...who will continue to have access to red! Perhaps the mobo guy's might consider installing club tank storage? and have a couple of thousand galls deliverd monthly.... Central Heating Oil?
G
Guest
Guest
Now hold on a while ....
I cannot advise / be involved in any trickery .....
I did ask a long time ago if anyone was interested in syndicate purchase of small road tank or static farm tank and a large supply of red ..... to last out a reasonable period ..... !!
Trouble is the supplier may not be allowed to supply such .... ?? Dunno - could be possible I suppose ???
And anything else that anyone may think I am suggesting ........... !!
I cannot advise / be involved in any trickery .....
I did ask a long time ago if anyone was interested in syndicate purchase of small road tank or static farm tank and a large supply of red ..... to last out a reasonable period ..... !!
Trouble is the supplier may not be allowed to supply such .... ?? Dunno - could be possible I suppose ???
And anything else that anyone may think I am suggesting ........... !!
peterb
Well-Known Member
Re: Engines .... and diesel ??
It never would disappear completely. At that rate of usage, you would still have about 1% of the original fuel left after 18 years. I wonder what concentration is detectable?
It never would disappear completely. At that rate of usage, you would still have about 1% of the original fuel left after 18 years. I wonder what concentration is detectable?
G
Guest
Guest
Detection ....
Miniscule - by chemical analysis when in tiny amounts ......
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Miniscule - by chemical analysis when in tiny amounts ......
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