Did a circuit diagram for solar, Integrel generator, Lithium battery banks etc .....

[Baggywrinkle]

In my quest to get fully self-sufficient for water and electrickery I had a look at the Integrel generator system and apart from being eye-wateringly expensive it looks like an excellent way to turn your diesel donk into a very effective generator.

The Integrel part runs at 48V DC so need to convert down to 12V DC for the normal loads in the boat ... Here is the wiring diagram I knocked up - it's a 48V / 12V system with the major power generation going into the 48V battery bank (10,240 kWh) and feeding the 12V bank (2,560 kWh) ... the starter AGM fends for itself with the alternator and a 5A charger.

Solar will be as much as I can fit on an arch and the bimini (around 850 - 1000W hopefully)

Apart from the fuse values ... not been through them yet ..... I would be grateful if anyone sees any glaring mistakes to point them out ... I don't think I've done anything too stupid.

 

[gregcope]

Did you want a fuse on the 12V start battery pos nr the isolator? (bottom right)

Also the shorepower side does not have an RCB or MCBO? (Top right)

I like to fit on/off switches on the victron stuff (eg MPPT and B2B) so that you can isolate (or you can remove fuses).

What did you for the diagram. Its looks smart!

 

[jakew009]

How did you make the diagram?

Some thoughts:

- I'd use MRBF fuses on the 12v batteries to keep the fuse as close to the battery as possible. I'd then do away with the extra bus bars and just cross link them with short wires.
- What is the purpose of the negative link (labelled Batt -) going from the central negative busbar to the starter motor negative? That looks like it's just introducing a ground loop for no benefit? The engine will be grounded anyway.
- I don't like having the fusing 'split' over two fuses. I know it's technically acceptable but you're typical mega fuse is not rated for parallel operation. Better to just stick them on a single fuse if you can (I know it's sometimes difficult when dealing with huge wires).
- The converters you've shown on the diagram won't fully charge the batteries but you probably know that. Depending on the load on the converters the voltage will droop quite a lot. If you set it to 13.6V ish under load the float voltage with no load will be too high. What loads will the 12V side be powering? How spikey are they?
- I'd use a 48-12V DC/DC charger for the starter battery rather than inverting it up to 230V and back down to 12V.

 

[gregcope]

Also I see your using a Multiplus II. Can this not charge the engine start and remove the charger bottom right? Mine has a engine charger.

 

[Zing]

if your solar wires are sized right you don’t need breakers there.

There comes a point where you can over complicate a job and instead of making things more reliable you increase the chance of failure. It looks like a risk here, that said, I’d want twin charger/inverters for redundancy and do without Integrel and it’s multiple voltage complexity and just have a simple large alternator on the engine.

As it is it’s a very big job. Do you want to build a boat or go sailing?

 

[Pete7]

that said, I’d want twin charger/inverters for redundancy and do without Integrel and it’s multiple voltage complexity and just have a simple large alternator on the engine.

As it is it’s a very big job. Do you want to build a boat or go sailing?

I thought the same looking at that diagram. Can't imagine trying to fault find that if it goes down whilst on an offshore passage. If there is going to be 1kW of solar do you really need the Integrel? Is likely to only be used occasionally to top up rather than daily?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The diagram is an amalgamation of Victron Schematics from their Website patched together in Photoshop. I wouldn't recommend this as a means of producing wiring diagrams unless you really know your way around Photoshop.

@gregcope ... er yes, a fuse on the starter would be a good idea, Oooops. Interestingly, all the Victron schematics ( System schematics - Victron Energy ) have the same shore-power connection with no RCD. Need to find out why. I also thought the Cerbo GX can switch off the connected charging devices, if this is not the case then I will fit the switches. Thanks for the heads-up on the Multiplus II - will look into that and hopefully save the charger.

@jakew009 ... will look at MRBF fuses ... the negative link is a carry over from one of the Victron diagrams ... I could, and probably should, remove it as being superfluous. During installation and depending on which components I can source, the parallel fusing, bus bars etc. may turn out to be very different to the way it is depicted. I usually produce a schematic like this and then amend it as I progress with the install. The converters are a real problem ... Victron don't do a 48 12 Orion Tr Smart Charger ... so they are really not ideal. Need to revisit this area. All my 12v loads switched on together will amount to around 30A ... which is not too high. If they did a 48/12V Smart Charger, I'd use it for the starter too.

@Zing, the breakers for the solar are there because I like them (as can be seen from the diagrams below, this was not always the case) ... this is my reasoning ...

NEC 2020 Article 690.13 section (E) States that “ The PV System disconnecting means shall simultaneously disconnect the PV system conductors that are not solidly grounded from all conductors of other wiring systems.

Since camper electrical systems are generally NOT grounded, this means that both the positive and negative conductors from the solar array need to be able to be simultaneously disconnected, and our dual pole breaker does exactly that where those other breakers and switches do not.

.. and I like this kind of job. I usually break the install down into project phases, each taking a day or two to complete and leaving the system fully functional when I am finished so it doesn't interfere with my boat usage. It's worked well in the past and I have created these two systems on my last boat using this approach. The benefit of doing these kind of diagrams is that it makes debugging and repair much easier - and as I did the design and install, I know where everything is, what it does, and why it is there. If you inherit a system like this without the documentation, then I totally agree, fault-finding and repair is a nightmare. I'm not planning to go on extended offshore trips so am not worried about failure or redundancy, I still wouldn't double up for redundancy though, I'd carry replacement components and switch them out if anything failed - the install will be done with fault finding and replacement in mind - an MPPT is 9 screws and a plug for a drop in replacement assuming the settings are all pre-configured.




@Pete7 ... I will need the integrel (or a generator) to quickly fill my water tanks, a washing machine and reverse-cycle aircon is on the horizon too - as well as water heating. 300W on my last boat was enough for a fridge and normal 12V loads, producing 1,3 kWh on a good day but my power budget for the next boat is way beyond my old one.

Thanks to all for taking the time to reply, and it looks like I have a few things to think about.

 

[jakew009]

Cristec do a 48/12 charger: YPOWER DC-DC battery chargers - Cristec

If the DC DC converters are capable of handling the load (30A) why even bother with the lithium batteries here? Just stick a 50Ah AGM to act as a bit of a smoothing capacitor.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Cristec do a 48/12 charger: YPOWER DC-DC battery chargers - Cristec

If the DC DC converters are capable of handling the load (30A) why even bother with the lithium batteries here? Just stick a 50Ah AGM to act as a bit of a smoothing capacitor.

Thanks, will look at the Cristec. .... the 12V Lithiums are part of an overall power reserve calculation 230V+12V ... I calculated my 12V loads and my 230V loads and built the system splitting the storage between 12V and 48V battery banks. Maybe my thinking is a bit weird, but as it stands, I've got 12.8 kWh in total - 10,24 kWh on 48V and 2,45 kWh on 12V, dropping the 2 x 12V Lithiums and replacing them with a 50Ah AGM (effectively maybe 35Ah usable) would lose me around 2 kWh of storage. With this setup I can keep going on the 12V system alone by re-routing the solar (should anything happen to the 48V system) - then I keep my nav lights, interior lights, instruments, and fridge/freezer.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

@jakew009 ... Just had a brief look at Cristec, with a Cyrix Li-Charge I can control the connection to the batteries so the system integration with Victron is not so important ..... best thing is that the 48V-12V Charger is 40A ... so I don't need 2. Thanks for the tip.

 

[jakew009]

Thanks, will look at the Cristec. .... the 12V Lithiums are part of an overall power reserve calculation 230V+12V ... I calculated my 12V loads and my 230V loads and built the system splitting the storage between 12V and 48V battery banks. Maybe my thinking is a bit weird, but as it stands, I've got 12.8 kWh in total - 10,24 kWh on 48V and 2,45 kWh on 12V, dropping the 2 x 12V Lithiums and replacing them with a 50Ah AGM (effectively maybe 35Ah usable) would lose me around 2 kWh of storage. With this setup I can keep going on the 12V system alone by re-routing the solar (should anything happen to the 48V system) - then I keep my nav lights, interior lights, instruments, and fridge/freezer.

If you set the float voltage of the charger to about 13.6-13.8V, you might reduce the batteries life expectancy by a few percent, but it should be mostly charged when you need it.

Really you need to be able to track the batterie's state of charge with a shunt and then vary the charging voltage based on that. But that requires a charger that the BMS can control.

Any reason for using the Victron batteries? You are paying a serious premium for the blue case.

 

[jakew009]

p.s. the solar charger is enormously oversized. 150/35 would be fine. The 150/70 is physically massive.

 

[dankilb]

Interestingly, all the Victron schematics ( System schematics - Victron Energy ) have the same shore-power connection with no RCD.

I looked into this and far as I can remember there’s nothing definitive from Victron on circuit protection from shore power. I took it as ‘assumed’ (their box and everything it feeds is protected if their schematics/instructions are followed). Plenty of posts on their forum and on here affirming use of RCD / RCBO. Not saying it’s a necessity (nor that I’m any expert/electrician- I just did the internet searching!). On our boat the cable run is a good 4m+ to the Multiplus. I want that protected by something other than the marina bollard!

One other thing I’ve always questioned is the need for an isolator to the Multiplus. Why would you want to isolate it apart from in exceptional circumstances (it’s failed somehow) - in which case, fit a convenient fuse you can pull. A suitable isolator will surely be £50/60 plus? It all adds up (and adds bulk, complexity, connections/terminations, holes in boat, etc.).

We have the Multiplus (remote) controller mounted in easy reach (on the main/chart table switchpanel) so that’s how we’ll turn it on/off.


I’ve not actually wired/installed ours yet - so I’ll follow with interest and stand corrected where necessary on any of the above speculation!

 

[jakew009]

I looked into this and far as I can remember there’s nothing definitive from Victron on circuit protection from shore power. I took it as ‘assumed’ (their box and everything it feeds is protected if their schematics/instructions are followed). Plenty of posts on their forum and on here affirming use of RCD / RCBO. Not saying it’s a necessity (nor that I’m any expert/electrician- I just did the internet searching!). On our boat the cable run is a good 4m+ to the Multiplus. I want that protected by something other than the marina bollard!

The problem is RCD discrimination - if there is a phase to earth fault you've no idea which RCD is going to trip.
The marina bollard is already going to be protected by an RCD (otherwise the cable coming to your boat is plain dangerous) so arguably the RCD in the boat is adding nothing.

What do you mean by "Multiplus. I want that protected by something other than the marina bollard!"? The cables to the multiplus are already protected by the MCB. RCD is adding nothing.

 

[dankilb]

The Lynx (or its fuse) can surely disconnect the Multiplus, no? Isn’t that the idea? If so, further makes the isolator redundant IMHO.

 

[dankilb]

The problem is RCD discrimination - if there is a phase to earth fault you've no idea which RCD is going to trip.
The marina bollard is already going to be protected by an RCD (otherwise the cable coming to your boat is plain dangerous) so arguably the RCD in the boat is adding nothing.

What do you mean by "Multiplus. I want that protected by something other than the marina bollard!"? The cables to the multiplus are already protected by the MCB. RCD is adding nothing.

Yes do see what you mean. My thinking is rather ‘indiscriminate’ in terms of adding an rcd based on perceived distrust of marina connections! ‘I want my own equivalent protection onboard’…

On reflection, one should check and test the connection you’re plugging into and I would do that.

Is there any risk/harm in adding, say, a suitable RCBO in place of the mcb - (beyond not knowing which will trip, if I understood you correctly?)?

 

[vas]

nice diagram, too complicated, but not mine so wont object

care to elaborate a bit on the need to go 48V for the lifepo4? (mind only spent 2mins looking at it in fullscreen and got dizzy...)

my only recommendation would be to opt for a 24V boat get a 24V multi, 24V bank of lifepo4 a couple of agms or whatnot for engine starting as a different bank (and backup for when/if something fails on the lifepo4) and be done with all the ups and downs on voltages.

V.

 

[geem]

Turning all of this on its head for a moment. Do you really think you need a generator? We have recently converted to lithium. We have run the generator once in the last 2 weeks as I thought I should. With 720w of solar we are doing almost all cooking on the induction hob, making water on the 220v watermaker, heating water for showers on the immersion heater and boiling the electric kettle for tea. If you haven't had lithium before you will find some surprising changes. The solar works twice as hard as when you have lead batteries simply because the solar rarely goes off bulk charge. It just pours amps in all day long. With enough lithium capacity you can just absorb all this power for when you need it. Our solar harvest has almost doubled.
In our situation the utilization factor of our generator will be very low from now on. For the amount we are going to need it, it really wouldn't be worth installing one. Having an expensive engine/generator hybrid would fall in to the same category. You would be better in my opinion, installing a Wakespeed alternator reg and a big alternator. It will do all you need if you have 1000w of solar

 

[jakew009]

Yes do see what you mean. My thinking is rather ‘indiscriminate’ in terms of adding an rcd based on perceived distrust of marina connections! ‘I want my own equivalent protection onboard’…

On reflection, one should check and test the connection you’re plugging into and I would do that.

Is there any risk/harm in adding, say, a suitable RCBO in place of the mcb - (beyond not knowing which will trip, if I understood you correctly?)?

I can't see any downside to fitting an RCBO feeding the multiplus.

I actually agree with you that the RCD on the boat is a good idea because you have no idea what condition the marina RCD is in.

However, in the original posters situation, the only thing being fed by the shore power connector is the multiplus, which has an RCD on it's output.

When designing this kind of thing, it's important to think about the risk that you are mitigating. An RCD between the inverter and the shore power connector is protecting you from a deadly shock between the RCD and the inverter assuming the marina RCD was inoperable. That's a pretty unlikely scenario and the cable run from the marina bollard to your boat is still just as dangerous.
If you had other sockets on the boat supplied by the shore power, there's a real risk that you could get a shock from say a faulty hairdryer if the marina RCD was inoperable, and therefore it would make sense to fit an RCD. I think that is also Victron's logic (see the first reply here: Multiplus output requires RCD protection - Victron Community)

 

[vas]

Turning all of this on its head for a moment. Do you really think you need a generator? We have recently converted to lithium. We have run the generator once in the last 2 weeks as I thought I should. With 720w of solar we are doing almost all cooking on the induction hob, making water on the 220v watermaker, heating water for showers on the immersion heater and boiling the electric kettle for tea. If you haven't had lithium before you will find some surprising changes. The solar works twice as hard as when you have lead batteries simply because the solar rarely goes off bulk charge. It just pours amps in all day long. With enough lithium capacity you can just absorb all this power for when you need it. Our solar harvest has almost doubled.
In our situation the utilization factor of our generator will be very low from now on. For the amount we are going to need it, it really wouldn't be worth installing one. Having an expensive engine/generator hybrid would fall in to the same category. You would be better in my opinion, installing a Wakespeed alternator reg and a big alternator. It will do all you need if you have 1000w of solar

told you that you wont need the generator, didn't I