Design rights and Copyright question

[Proust]

Hello,

Sorry for my poor English, i'm not british...

the question is about the design rights of a vintage boat, one design and built under commission.

I searched in the UK Copyright Service and I found this paragraf about "Designs and design rights":

Who owns the design right?
Typically the creator of the design owns any rights in it, except where the work was commissioned or created during the course of employment, in which case the rights belong to the employer or party that commissioned the work.

is it applicable to a boat design and plans?

if yes: are the rights (that are proprety of the commissioner/first owner) autamtically transferred to the next owner of the boat? in other words: are these right connected to the boat and sold with it at the act of transferring proprety of the boat?

if not: in the same page is writte the design rights have duration of 10 years from first "publication" fo the unregistred designs and 25 years for registred ones. Is this valid again for boat design?

Second question: Copyright.
in the same page I linked before there is a paragraf that says the copyright is still presento on the designs and protect them like any other art-work.

British Copyright Law says that there are 2 distinct rights in the concept of "copyright":

1 - Moral Right and Intellectual Property that belongs to the material creator of the work and cannot be sold or be assigned to another.

2 - Copyright that means the right of commercial use, repuvlications, distribution etc again is said If a work is made by an author in the course of employment then the author's employer is the first owner of copyright.

now, the central questions:

- can a third part rivendicate a copyright above the plans and designs of my boat putting on it a "Copyright © 2004 Bobby Smith"?
- can they intimate me not to re-publish the plans and designs of my boat in internet even without commercial porpouse?
- can they sell copyes of my boats designs?
- can they pretend to sell me the plans of my boat?

obviously this is not the place where quoting "who" and "what" I'm interested only in a general response.

Thanks a lot

 

[Romeo]

If this i s a commercial matter for you, then you really have to obtain written professional advice.

FWIW I think that the age of the design might be relevant. I think some things drop out of copyright after 60 years, hence some map makers have based their maps on 60 year old o.s. maps, updated by observation, and publisher pump out copies of "classics" with gay abandon. Might be wrong though!

R

 

[Tranona]

Suggest you address your question initially to the Royal Institute of Naval Architecture www.rina.org.uk who will be able to advise on the general principle of design rights. They may also be able to answer your specific questions or direct you to specialist lawyer who can.

 

[guernseyman]

Hello,

Sorry for my poor English, i'm not british...

the question is about the design rights of a vintage boat, one design and built under commission.

I searched in the UK Copyright Service and I found this paragraf about "Designs and design rights":

Who owns the design right?
Typically the creator of the design owns any rights in it, except where the work was commissioned or created during the course of employment, in which case the rights belong to the employer or party that commissioned the work.

is it applicable to a boat design and plans?

Yes

B]if yes[/B]: are the rights (that are proprety of the commissioner/first owner) autamtically transferred to the next owner of the boat? in other words: are these right connected to the boat and sold with it at the act of transferring proprety of the boat?

No

B]B]if not[/B]: in the same page is writte the design rights have duration of 10 years from first "publication" fo the unregistred designs and 25 years for registred ones. Is this valid again for boat design?

Yes

B]B]if not[/B]: Copyright.
in the same page I linked before there is a paragraf that says the copyright is still presento on the designs and protect them like any other art-work.

British Copyright Law says that there are 2 distinct rights in the concept of "copyright":

1 - Moral Right and Intellectual Property that belongs to the material creator of the work and cannot be sold or be assigned to another.

2 - Copyright that means the right of commercial use, repuvlications, distribution etc again is said If a work is made by an author in the course of employment then the author's employer is the first owner of copyright.

now, the central questions:

- can a third part rivendicate a copyright above the plans and designs of my boat putting on it a "Copyright © 2004 Bobby Smith"?

Whatever 'rivendicate' means, No

can they intimate me not to re-publish the plans and designs of my boat in internet even without commercial porpouse?

No

can they sell copyes of my boats designs?

No

can they pretend to sell me the plans of my boat?

?

this is not the place where quoting "who" and "what" I'm interested only in a general response.

Thanks a lot

Beware: UK Copyright Service is not an official organisation.

 

[Proust]

Thank you very much guernseyman!

if it is not a problem I need a few other infos:

according that design rights are now extincted (10 o 25 years are passed), who belongs copyright of my boat's designs? first owner? he is dead but God knows when... so in which date the copyright starts?

Trying to contextualize a little more:

there is a company that has the name of the architect that designed my boat, they have a great archive of most the original designs and they regularly sell them to evryone (moreover, quite expensive). I asked them a copy of some plans I don't have for a better restoration and they said I can buy them and claimed me not to publish or distribute the designs.

On every design they put a "Copyright © 2009 -company-name-", logic suggest me this is not correct: if there is a copyright it might report the designer's death year, not 2009! This can be added on everythig they create ex-novo like their site graphics or photografs, not on the original designs, is this correct?

It's obvious they try to avoid the further publication because for them it is a damn, they sell the plans and if I give them at the internet their gain is lost. But I think they can't sell any of the design they have, just because they are not the copyright holders.

I'll pay for the copies because I don't want to open an international legal issue, but is my intention to publicate them on the web and prevent from a "return" legal issue

thanks again!
Andrea

 

[guernseyman]

Thank you very much guernseyman!

if it is not a problem I need a few other infos:

according that design rights are now extincted (10 o 25 years are passed), who belongs copyright of my boat's designs? first owner? he is dead but God knows when... so in which date the copyright starts?

Copyright is automatic. It starts as soon as the document has been created. It belongs to the author or his employer, normally.

to contextualize a little more:

there is a company that has the name of the architect that designed my boat, they have a great archive of most the original designs and they regularly sell them to evryone (moreover, quite expensive). I asked them a copy of some plans I don't have for a better restoration and they said I can buy them and claimed me not to publish or distribute the designs.

On every design they put a "Copyright © 2009 -company-name-", logic suggest me this is not correct: if there is a copyright it might report the designer's death year, not 2009! This can be added on everythig they create ex-novo like their site graphics or photografs, not on the original designs, is this correct?

It's obvious they try to avoid the further publication because for them it is a damn, they sell the plans and if I give them at the internet their gain is lost. But I think they can't sell any of the design they have, just because they are not the copyright holders.

I'll pay for the copies because I don't want to open an international legal issue, but is my intention to publicate them on the web and prevent from a "return" legal issue

(i) regardless of copyright, they are entitled to charge you for copies.
(ii) the Copyright notice is not important - the copyright exists without it.
(ii) if you publish the plans on the internet, the owner of the copyright (whether it is that company or not) could take you to court.

 

[Proust]

Copyright is automatic. It starts as soon as the document has been created. It belongs to the author or his employer, normally.

Ok, as a commissioner is equivalent to an employer, who is now the copyright holder? not the -designer's company- for sure, right? probably the heirs of the first owner, if there are...

(i) regardless of copyright, they are entitled to charge you for copies.

Correct, I'll pay, although it's too expensive for beeing considered "copies cost"...

(ii) the Copyright notice is not important - the copyright exists without it.

I know. It was just an example for showing how superficially they use the copyright notice... assuming they are the owners...

(ii) if you publish the plans on the internet, the owner of the copyright (whether it is that company or not) could take you to court.

not if I publish them in a Fair Dealing according to:

s29.—(1) Fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical, etc, work, for the purpose of research or for a non-commercial purpose, does not infringe any copyright in the work, provided it is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement of the source.

for non-commercial purposes and for an historical research about the boat.

thanks again!

 

[guernseyman]

S9 says "fair dealing". I have no reference work handy, but I suspect that publishing on the internet for all to see is not fair dealing.

 

[mitiempo]

Proust
Aren't you dealing with two separate issues?
1. copyright of the pages you are to purchase
2. ownership of the actual design
When you purchase the plans for a boat you are legally entitled to construct one boat from those plans - unless as a commercial builder you have made arrangement with the owner of the design (designer or the company he created and retired from or his heirs as the case may be) and in that case the builder would pay a royalty to the designer for each example built. This is in a standard contract when purchasing plans.
Also, if you publish the plans the owner of the design has legal recourse against anyone who produces a boat from those plans as well as copyright infringement against you.
My thoughts.

 

[DownWest]

Proust,
I am not quite sure about your purpose in publishing the plans on the internet. Will it be as an illustration of your rebuild? Or an open invitation for someone to build a boat? Has the company annoyed you....
People routinely put up drawings of boats in design discussions, but not with enough information to build. Your intention might be an influence on a court's decision. A full set of line drawings and offsets could be in breach of any copyright, esp. if in a form that could be downloaded with accuracy.
Andrew

Not a lawyer, but my father designed boats.

If the firm is the one I suspect it is, they are quite likely to sue.

 

[Proust]

Thanks for advices.

now, I'm not going to build a new boat from the plans, I already have the boat (and some original drawings), the other designs are extremly important for a perfect restoration (this could be even something the company-designer-named should care, helping me, not the opposite...)

The porpuse of publication is not for letting everyone download plans and produce a new boat, they will just appear in the web-site we opened about the boat, her history and her restoration (not research use? what's the difference between a book and a web site with the history of the boat?).
Obviously the designs will not appear in best resolusion, and for sure not usefull for a new construction. On the other hand an historic research about the boat without the original drawings will be a semi-joke, won't it?
Add to this that there is not commercial porpuse on the work, and is not my intention to deny the intellectual proprety or the moral right the designer have on the work...just diffusion o knowledge.

but again: if in british copyright law is said "the copyright belongs to the employer of the work" the employer for a boat is the committer, so that company is not the owner of copyright. The first owner was born 140 years ago (!!!) he sold the boat in 30's and had no heirs... now, who can claim copyright?

the suspect is that the company is not really interested in cultural conservation/diffusion of the knowledge in the designer's archive, they just try to maximize profit from it... this is quite sad, isn't it?

again: I don't want to open an international legal issue, if this risk persists I'll renounce publication, I'll pay 50£ (!) for each (digital scan, not the original...) drawing of MY boat and I'll finish restoration without their blessing.

 

[guernseyman]

On the facts that you now give us it may well be that copyright in the plans has expired.

Nevertheless it appears that copyright is being claimed.

Have you contacted the firm to ask them (a) for a statement of their position with regard to that copyright and (b) if copyright exists, would they negotiate on what they would regard as fair dealing in your attempt to publish?

After all, your publication could well bring extra business their way, so it should be in their interest to assist you.

 

[Proust]

On the facts that you now give us it may well be that copyright in the plans has expired.

not yet, the 70 years from author's death are not passed, few years more...

Have you contacted the firm to ask them (a) for a statement of their position with regard to that copyright and (b) if copyright exists, would they negotiate on what they would regard as fair dealing in your attempt to publish?

a - as I said before, they are convinced to have a copyright 2009 on the drawings, that seems irrealistic.
b - I'll try again, for the moment thei said me to publish not bigger dan 5% of the original, that means less than a post stamp.

After all, your publication could well bring extra business their way, so it should be in their interest to assist you.

Right! consider even that my boat is not the most famous designed by that architect, she is just a normal little cruiser... probably anyone in next 100 years will be interested in her plans, the further profits should be nothing or little more...

 

[guernseyman]

(a) They are trying to give that impression, and it could be true if there is something new in the drawings, but it would not be true of the older ones.

(b) You do realise, don't you, that you could do your own drawings? The copyright is in the drawings, not the boat or its arrangement. But of course you must not copy their drawings to do your own!

 

[Lakesailor]

Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988


Look at page 12.

215
Ownership of design right
(1)
The designer is the first owner of any design right in a design which is not created in pursuance of a commission or in the course of employment.

(2)
Where a design is created in pursuance of a commission, the person commissioning the design is the first owner of any design right in it.

(3)
Where, in a case not falling within subsection (2) a design is created by an employee in the course of his employment, his employer is the first owner of any design right in the design.

(4)
If a design qualifies for design right protection by virtue of section 220 (qualification by reference to first marketing of articles made to the design), the above rules do not apply and the person by whom the articles in question are marketed is the first owner of the design right.


216
Duration of design right
(1)
Design right expires—

(a)
fifteen years from the end of the calendar year in which the design was first recorded in a design document or an article was first made to the design, whichever first occurred, or

(b)
if articles made to the design are made available for sale or hire within five years from the end of that calendar year, ten years from the end of the calendar year in which that first occurred.

(2)
The reference in subsection (1) to articles being made available for sale or hire is to their being made so available anywhere in the world by or with the licence of the design right owner.

Lots more information on this site. Notice that the geographical location is important in defining who has rights.
Guernseyman is correct. Are they telling you the design itself is Copyright, or the drawings they are publishing is Copyright. The early pages of the website about the CDPA deals with artworks (which the drawings will come under).

 

[oldfrank]

Tricky business copyright. EEC legislation has overruled much British law in this respect. Just because you own a picture, you don't necessarily have an automatic right to publish prints taken from it. The copyright remains with the painter and the same would apply to a boat. You may own the boat but that doesn't give you copyright of the plans. Someone paid a royalty to build your boat from the original plans, which effectively acknowledged the copyright. EEC legislation has extended copyright periods - I think that copyright on photographs now expire eighty years after the death of the photographer but doubtless someone will put me right.

On the other hand ... I understand that if a copyright holder sues for copyright infringement, his claim will be for loss of profits. Which could be why not many of these cases get to court. You will doubtless come to your own conclusions - I would never advise you to publish and be damned! OF