Demand for moorings plummeting?

[Seajet]

Re: Nope !

Our club has two or three Open days every ' summer ' where people with little or no experience are offered the chance to get out on cruisers, the more staid sailing dinghies, and the various rescue boats; obviously you can't give novice punters a go on a 49'er etc, but they can see them going past and get the idea.

One of the greatest pleasures I've had from sailing is introducing people of all ages to it - yes nowadays it's sensible to check lifejacket gas cannisters and flares are in date etc, but as long as it's taken gently in the right spirit with an experienced skipper and maybe crew helper everyone wins - even if people try sailing and decide it's not for them, at least they get the chance to try.

The only real proviso I'd say nowadays is that one has to be careful with children under 16, I wouldn't take kids onboard now unless they had a known responsible adult with them.

It seems the owner / members at our club of all ages are keen to help out at Open Days or whenever the opportunity presents to give people a go on boats.

 

[Quandary]

Re: Nope !

My son and daughter spent much of their early life being trailed around the West of Scotland on boats or racing on Tuesdays, Thursdays and weekends. As students the boat was an adventure to share with their mates but once married life set in, things changed. My daughter married a cyclist and moved to Milton Keynes, she still feels nostalgia for sailing in Guernsey and Skyre but regards that as now well behind her. My son, on the other hand still regards himself as a keen and active sailor, he signs on for the Scottish Series, The Sigma championship and one other big Clyde weekend event every year and on Monday evenings he takes his daughter out to Helensburgh to learn to sail, but he has far too many other commitments to consider boat ownership even if it was given too him. He has an open invitation to take whatever boat we have when he wants, but so far has never had time to take up the offer. I think he is typical of his generation.
Life is just different now, it used to be a target to own your own boat by your early thirties, chartering was rare, now you leave it to old duffers with time on their hands to supply the boat when you want it and to fettle it and organize the entries.

 

[Tulkinghorn]

Re: Nope !

Interesting post, although it's going somewhat off topic (although in an interesting way).

On the primary point - we're members of a club on the Hamble. It has the largest "private" mooring facility locally and is continually oversubscribed. Boats that have done above a certain threshold in the preceding year in club events get into a priority list in the annual ballot. Mooring charges are considerably lower than the headline rates of comparable nearby marinas, but the main attraction is that the club's facilities ashore are far better than anything the marinas can offer. I don't make mention of the excellent club racing and cruising etc, because we'd be doing that anyway.

There are plenty of spaces available in Hamble Point and Port Hamble, Swanwick and Lymington though (despite much sucking of teeth and "ooh, we'll try to find you a space if we possibly can"). Both HP and PH have a considerable number of long term sub-let berths that the owners no longer have a use for and so will sub-let. MDL has a policy of "insisting" that the tenants cannot sub-let these at less than the MDL rate minus VAT - although this is not compatible with EU/UK competition law and can't be enforced.

Our club has done a lot to promote itself to new members recently - resulting in a sizeable growth in membership last year. Many of these are younger people and families, which is extremely encouraging. The club also hosts an excellent week of events for children (not necessarily all members) in the summer which is a highlight of the year and there is a play room for children too.

What I do think has changed is the desirability of smaller yachts. The 25-35ft cruiser market isn't much catered for by the mainstream builders any more because there doesn't seem to be the demand for it and there is a glut of older boats available. Similarly, people don't want to spend their free time working on their boats, so the second hand market is suppressed. I can't think of a single person in my large London office who would relish antifouling. I've already done mine for the year, and thoroughly enjoyed myself in the process (but I'm a bit odd like that).

Consequently, the trend I've seen in boatyards is that the majority of owners are older people (50+) owning smaller yachts and doing the work themselves, or owning larger yachts and being able to afford for the work to be done for them. Luckily for me, maintaining and improving the boat is as much fun (nearly) as sailing it, so this keeps the cost down. I use professionals where I need to, but if I relied on them to do everything, it wouldn't be affordable in the slightest (don't get me started on certain rip-off marine tradesmen!).

I’m also not sure whether it is a sign that we’re becoming less sociable, whether technology is making it easier or whether people are less reliable at committing to crew on other peoples boats, but there is a very significant rise in the number of short-handed boats out there. I’m thinking particularly of the double-handed racing scene and sportsboats that require smaller crews but also even the largest of yachts now tends to be sold on the basis of how easily it is sailed by a couple. The time has passed that it would be normal to see a fleet of a dozen Sigma 38s on the water with crews of 8 to 10.

 

[rotrax]

Re: Nope !

This thread on mooring definitly needs a reply from me. I put in for a mooring at Evans Bay Marina in Evans Bay, Wellington, NZ. two years ago. It is much nearer and more convienient to where we live when in Wellington than Seaview Marina on the other side of the harbour where the boat has been since we bought it.

Got a phone call offering us one, viewed it and accepted it yesterday. Annual cost $2700 NZ-about £1450. Next door to the Evans Bay Yacht and Motorboat Club to which we belong, full lift out and hardstanding facilities there, also at the right price compared to the UK.

Today, our UK club, the Portsmouth Offshore Group, contacted us by email with the offer of a mid harbour pontoon mooring in the upper harbour at Wicor. Also accepted.

Creepy or what........................................

 

[Seajet]

Re: Nope !

Having been to Wicor I'd say the 747 flight is worth it, even if you have to buy your own !

 

[Blue Sunray]

Re: Nope !

Interesting post, although it's going somewhat off topic (although in an interesting way).

On the primary point - we're members of a club on the Hamble. It has the largest "private" mooring facility locally and is continually oversubscribed. Boats that have done above a certain threshold in the preceding year in club events get into a priority list in the annual ballot. Mooring charges are considerably lower than the headline rates of comparable nearby marinas, but the main attraction is that the club's facilities ashore are far better than anything the marinas can offer. I don't make mention of the excellent club racing and cruising etc, because we'd be doing that anyway.

There are plenty of spaces available in Hamble Point and Port Hamble, Swanwick and Lymington though (despite much sucking of teeth and "ooh, we'll try to find you a space if we possibly can"). Both HP and PH have a considerable number of long term sub-let berths that the owners no longer have a use for and so will sub-let. MDL has a policy of "insisting" that the tenants cannot sub-let these at less than the MDL rate minus VAT - although this is not compatible with EU/UK competition law and can't be enforced.

Our club has done a lot to promote itself to new members recently - resulting in a sizeable growth in membership last year. Many of these are younger people and families, which is extremely encouraging. The club also hosts an excellent week of events for children (not necessarily all members) in the summer which is a highlight of the year and there is a play room for children too.

Still though, there is an old guard who tend to mooch about the clubhouse on a Sunday moaning about children and dogs being allowed in. I thought one sixty-odd member was cracking a wry joke to me when he said that my children shouldn't be in the bar area one lunchtime (even though they were behaving very well for once too). He wasn't. Didn't seem to get my point about them being the future of the club and sailing either. Thankfully, for every person like that, there is someone else who will come over and say "what lovely children" or comment on how nice it is to see children on the water.

Fascinating contrast with another club not that far away with similar history and indeed name that gives the appearance of being a branch of Age UK when visited.

 

[Corribee72]

Re: Nope !

I recently bought my first boat having never sailed before, the sea has always drawn me, swimming, kayaking, diving and things but never sailing, I guess I had never been exposed to it. I have to watch the pennies but for me its worth it, I had to scrape the bottom to a clean slate and am currently changing nav lights, sprucing up etc but for me its all part of a new learning curve, the more I immerse myself into the whole thing the quicker i'll learn. My dad loves the boat and has actually been helping with the refurb, my son said he would help me if I paid him, I guess providing him a home and things to eat doesn't earn his labour! Don't get me wrong he loves being on the boat, but not the work that goes into it, Just the way it is I suppose. To be honest and it sounds stupid, but for me, having a sailing boat carries the same pride as being the first in the family to have degree would. Its just something that i would never have imagined having, it was a light bulb moment and I am so glad I bit the bullet, that should actually be we, not I, my first mistake was taking my wife out of Portsmouth Harbour before she was used to being on the water, having a small boat and being passed by big ferries made my wife rather emotional.......... more angry with me than anything, my dad at the rudder didn't help, neither did my laughter but live and learn and all that. This year will be spent gaining my wife's confidence and comfort with the sea, should be fun! Whilst i'm on as it were, I must comment on the baby boomer thing, younger folk bashing the boomers really gets my goat, for the young reading, please remember that some of the boomers parents went into the water 11 times at Dunkirk, fought with Montgomery in North Africa, liberated Italy, fought at Normandy and saw countless young men they were responsible for, blown to bits only to come home to nothing. If their children prosper from this country, good on em, they deserve it, their parent's bought them the right, with their lives, their blood, sweat and tears. To divide people into groups is a timeless political game, don't fall for it, it just makes life easier for politicians and who the hell wants that

 

[Seajet]

Re: Nope !

Corribee 72,

I am with you all the way; my father - just 94 - volunteered for WWII and was a Leading Air Mechanic on Seafires and Hellcats, going on to be the top crew chief on Harrier trials, where I was alongside him running instrumentation camera pods.

I also had the honour to work with Charlie Solley, who volunteered under age 3 times before being accepted then ended up looking after Swordfish on the Murmansk Convoys " We had to start the engine on the lift, if it reached the deck there was no chance in the wind chill "

And Ray Grayston, a Flight Engineer on the Dam Busters raid, shot down later.

So pardon me if I don't take pompous accountants too seriously !

As for your boat, she's a fine craft - I have the Newbridge Corribee brochure if you'd like scans.

***

A sailor takes an accountant friend for a sail.

After a while the accountant says " I see, you pay £ thousands for a boat you can at best use two days a week "

" No, I use her seven days a week "

" How so ? "

" Two days a week I sail her, the rest of the week I dream of her "

 

[NealB]

Re: Nope !

Two days a week I sail her, the rest of the week I dream of her "

Andy ..... you were conned!

You do not need to pay good money, to buy anything, if all you want to do is dream.

Dreams are free.

There .... take the advice of a pompous accountant, and save yourself a fortune!

 

[Seajet]

Re: Nope !

You're a right one to talk, having an Oliver Lee boat in your collection !

 

[oldgit]

Re: Nope !

I must comment on the baby boomer thing, younger folk bashing the boomers really gets my goat, for the young reading, please remember that some of the boomers parents went into the water 11 times at Dunkirk, fought with Montgomery in North Africa, liberated Italy, fought at Normandy and saw countless young men they were responsible for, blown to bits only to come home to nothing. If their children prosper from this country, good on em, they deserve it, their parent's bought them the right, with their lives, their blood, sweat and tears.

Just remember it was not the baby boomers who did this. It was their parents.

following generations enjoyed the fruits of their parents efforts with free everything and with end the of conscription, not having to fight any wars. For the vast majority a very stable(ish) economy meant security of employment and it was possible to run a household with single income.
Boomers fortunate enough to own property merely had to sit back and reap the rewards of inflation.
...and yet still they bristle with indignation should anyone dare to question their largely imagined struggles.

Wonder if the 30 pieces of silver garnered from destroying the Victorian concept of mutual societies still languish in their bank accounts ?

 

[Quandary]

Re: Nope !

Just remember it was not the baby boomers who did this. It was their parents.

following generations enjoyed the fruits of their parents efforts with free everything and with end the of conscription, not having to fight any wars. For the vast majority a very stable(ish) economy meant security of employment and it was possible to run a household with single income.
Boomers fortunate enough to own property merely had to sit back and reap the rewards of inflation.
...and yet still they bristle with indignation should anyone dare to question their largely imagined struggles.

Wonder if the 30 pieces of silver garnered from destroying the Victorian concept of mutual societies still languish in their bank accounts ?

Ballox
I am one of those you castigate, born during the second world war, by the end of it my brother was in a Lancaster over Europe, and I was at school with cod liver oil and orange juice supplements to compensate for our poor diet. But I have had a great life, starting in a household where we grew or reared or own food, when my father went off to work away for 6 months every year we tended the hens and the vegetables. I was fortunate to be given the opportunity to sit the 11 plus and go to a grammar school but that opportunity did not extend to everyone, my mates left school for work at fourteen, my parents made a lot of sacrifices so I did not take up the opportunity to go to university until much older but went to work to relieve them of the burden. My first job paid £4 per week, a decent bicycle cost £30, today you can get one for a weeks minimum wage. We had to wait an awful lot longer for everything we wanted and our expectations were so much lower.
Later we bought a plot and built our home, I laid the bricks and did the carpentry, my wife fixed the roof tiles working on it every spare moment we had for years. Sure we might appear to benefit from inflation in the value of property but what do you think that did to our savings. If you had lived through the Ted Heath years when prices escalated every weekend you might think differently.

There are no 'rewards of inflation', if prices increase you need more money, not less.

I do not disagree that compared to my parents and older siblings I have had the most fortunate existence, never had to go to war, lived long and comfortably and was able with a bit of frugality to support my kids through their extended education but do not try to tell me I did not have to work hard for it. My children do work, my son in particular, chooses to do almost the same sort of long hours that I did but he is materially a lot more comfortable than we were. And soon then as we die off and leave the wealth we had to work so hard to accumulate it will be the next generation that will be getting something for nothing.

 

[NealB]

Re: Nope !

You're a right one to talk, having an Oliver Lee boat in your collection !

Ahhh .... if we start digressing to the genius of Oliver Lee, I think that'd be a drift too far!

 

[jac]

Re: Nope !

Ballox
I am one of those you castigate, born during the second world war, by the end of it my brother was in a Lancaster over Europe, and I was at school with cod liver oil and orange juice supplements to compensate for our poor diet. But I have had a great life, starting in a household where we grew or reared or own food, when my father went off to work away for 6 months every year we tended the hens and the vegetables. I was fortunate to be given the opportunity to sit the 11 plus and go to a grammar school but that opportunity did not extend to everyone, my mates left school for work at fourteen, my parents made a lot of sacrifices so I did not take up the opportunity to go to university until much older but went to work to relieve them of the burden. My first job paid £4 per week, a decent bicycle cost £30, today you can get one for a weeks minimum wage. We had to wait an awful lot longer for everything we wanted and our expectations were so much lower.
Later we bought a plot and built our home, I laid the bricks and did the carpentry, my wife fixed the roof tiles working on it every spare moment we had for years. Sure we might appear to benefit from inflation in the value of property but what do you think that did to our savings. If you had lived through the Ted Heath years when prices escalated every weekend you might think differently.

There are no 'rewards of inflation', if prices increase you need more money, not less.

I do not disagree that compared to my parents and older siblings I have had the most fortunate existence, never had to go to war, lived long and comfortably and was able with a bit of frugality to support my kids through their extended education but do not try to tell me I did not have to work hard for it. My children do work, my son in particular, chooses to do almost the same sort of long hours that I did but he is materially a lot more comfortable than we were. And soon then as we die off and leave the wealth we had to work so hard to accumulate it will be the next generation that will be getting something for nothing.

SO if you were born during the war you are by definition not a baby boomer. Equally your brother in the Lancaster is not a baby boomer but is by definition one of the ones who do deserve the credit that old git was mentioning.

You ( and moreso your brother) took huge risks to their personal safety that people born from say 1945 - 1965 have no concept of.

Those born post war have the NHS, free education the whole of their young lives but then pulled the ladder up as they went. They stopped free education and introduced debt once they had finished. The had a mass housebuilding program which was then stopped. Now they are the NIMBYS campaigning against new houses as it will damage house prices. Still big campaigns though for more for pensioners - look at the pressure to keep the triple lock that was only introduced as boomers started to retire and realised they needed more money.

I appreciate that as individuals, no one person did all that but those people who are now in their 60's and 70's were the ones running the country for the last 20 years, be they government ministers, civil servants, senior managers in business, the NHGS, councils or merely a large bulge of voters.

As for inflation not helping. That is exactly thepoint. Go back to the 1970's and whilst inflation was always double digit, pay rises kept pace at least as much. SO the old wisdom of extending your mortgage as much as possible to buy as big as possible then sit tight for 5 years and watch inflation erode the real value of the debt whilst your income and house rose steadily. Of course it shafted the pensioners at the time but that didn't matter as they were old, had only fought in the war and due to lack of health care in early years, there weren't many of them to vote anyway.

Of course now the baby boomers are older, we have a triple lock, granny bonds through NS&I.
As for younger generations inheriting I'm not sure they will. Some of course will do very well but have a couple spend a year in a nursing home and the equity soon goes.

EVen if they inherit, those who are baby boomers are now mid 50's to about 70. Their children will be 30's and 40's. By the time the baby boomers start dying in serious numbers, their children will be 50's and 60's ( if not more) so a bit old for them to start enjoying the fruits of the inheritance but maybe enough for them to pass onto their own children who by then might be 20's or 30's and needing a hand.

 

[RupertW]

Re: Nope !

It remains quite simple -public policy follows votes and the millennials even recently hardly vote at all compared to those like me who voted when 18 in 1982 and have voted ever since and my generation voted less than those real baby boomers a generation above me.

It's not that people start voting when they get older it's that previous generations started voting when they were 18 and haven't stopped.

So policy follows the wishes of the older generation who want to keep hold of their unearned wealth as well as their earned wealth and not have it taxed to help the next generation. They would rather give their money directly their grandchildren than to the state to distribute it more widely.

If the younger generation ever bothered to vote in the same numbers and wanted a massive redistribution of wealth for older people they would have to find a party that promised to create inheritance tax for all, tax houses by value to force early downsizing etc etc. This is no more punitive to older people than tuition fees and grant abolition are already to younger people, along with a raft of anti-youth policies like abolition of mortgage tax relief, the triple lock, paying out of their taxes for the care of an elderly population who never had that tax burden themselves and so on.

But it takes a generation to start voting at 80 per cent turnout and a party that offers to redress the balance.

 

[jac]

Re: Nope !

It remains quite simple -public policy follows votes and the millennials even recently hardly vote at all compared to those like me who voted when 18 in 1982 and have voted ever since and my generation voted less than those real baby boomers a generation above me.

It's not that people start voting when they get older it's that previous generations started voting when they were 18 and haven't stopped.

So policy follows the wishes of the older generation who want to keep hold of their unearned wealth as well as their earned wealth and not have it taxed to help the next generation. They would rather give their money directly their grandchildren than to the state to distribute it more widely.

If the younger generation ever bothered to vote in the same numbers and wanted a massive redistribution of wealth for older people they would have to find a party that promised to create inheritance tax for all, tax houses by value to force early downsizing etc etc. This is no more punitive to older people than tuition fees and grant abolition are already to younger people, along with a raft of anti-youth policies like abolition of mortgage tax relief, the triple lock, paying out of their taxes for the care of an elderly population who never had that tax burden themselves and so on.

But it takes a generation to start voting at 80 per cent turnout and a party that offers to redress the balance.

Agreed,

The only fear for me is that the millennials will vote Labour who will throw the baby out with the bathwater!

It shouldn't be down to one generation v another. In an ideal world, voters would realise that anti old people policies will hurt their parents and grandparents and that anti youth policies will harm their children and grandchildren.

Sadly - it's not an ideal world.

 

[bedouin]

Re: Nope !

This is no more punitive to older people than tuition fees and grant abolition are already to younger people, along with a raft of anti-youth policies like abolition of mortgage tax relief, the triple lock, .

All policies introduced by the last Labour government.

 

[RupertW]

Re: Nope !

Agreed,

The only fear for me is that the millennials will vote Labour who will throw the baby out with the bathwater!

It shouldn't be down to one generation v another. In an ideal world, voters would realise that anti old people policies will hurt their parents and grandparents and that anti youth policies will harm their children and grandchildren.

Sadly - it's not an ideal world.

I think they need to vote Labour (although I can never imagine doing that myself) to reverse the ageism of wealth and tax and benefits even at the cost of the overall economy for a year or two. No point in a growing economy if you are in the position of a Leave voter in the North East quoted as saying, "that's your GDP growth, not mine"

Better still if a more sensible party had the courage to do the job but the Tories won't have the courage again to challenge their core voters to play fair with their descendants

 

[RupertW]

Re: Nope !

All policies introduced by the last Labour government.

Actually Major phased out MIRAS (or was it Thatcher) - but I'm not making a party political point - any party will follow the voters, just in different ways. Right now only Corbyn is mad and radical enough to redistribute from old to young and i think even he'd bottle it

 

[Capt Popeye]

Re: Nope !

Actually Major phased out MIRAS (or was it Thatcher) - but I'm not making a party political point - any party will follow the voters, just in different ways. Right now only Corbyn is mad and radical enough to redistribute from old to young and i think even he'd bottle it

Humm might say, as an opinion, that the present silly low interest rates were intended as a sop to the younger Home Buyers, the results of this ultra low interest rate is to penalize the Older Saver as their interest earned (thats EARNED) is now diminutive so all that savings over many years now has to be spent to survive, so not passed onto their family, plus the low interest rates have only really enable the house prices to be raised quickly, which has not helped those youngsters anyway, except with those fortunate to have got extra well paid jobs, probably screwing others of similar age ?

Might suggest that the ultra and unrealistic interest rate have probably been responsible for the demise of that old institution, the Building Societies