vyv_cox
Well-known member
The galvanising on Spade anchors is notoriously poor. An advantage you have in Turkey is that having it regalvanised may not be too much of a problem but you will need to have its lead ballast melted out first.
Delta Anchor - buy original Lewmar or knock-off
- Thread starter Irish Rover
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Irish Rover
Well-known member
Yes mine is filthy rusty at the moment and that's mainly why i think the shaft is weak where it's holed for the shackle.
noelex
Well-known member
Thanks for clarifying.
The steel Spade is an excellent anchor, which explains your previous positive results.
You mentioned in your first post concerns about corrosion weakening the shank. It would be worth investigating how much actual material has been lost, and if re-galvanising the anchor is a possibility. Often rusty parts look worse than they are in reality. Unfortunately, re-galvanising a Spade is more involved than most anchors. The lead has to be removed and then reapplied after galvanising, but labour is not expensive in Turkey and there are many small engineering firms prepared to do this type of work. The steel Spade has a fabricated (probably mild steel) shank so a local welder may be able to repair any lost material. As the Spade is a good and expensive anchor, the possibility of re-galvanising is at least worth looking into.
If the anchor does need replacement I would be even more reluctant to step down to a lower performing model such as the Delta. The M2 would be much better. Unfortunately, I have not seen enough of the M2 underwater to decide if it is slightly better or worse than the steel Spade so I cannot give you a definitive answer on the relative performance you are likely to experience. Another data point is Panope’s excellent anchor tests. In these tests the M2 has done better than the steel Spade and the M2 users I have spoken to have all had positive feedback so I think you are unlikely to be disappointed.
The steel Spade is an excellent anchor, which explains your previous positive results.
You mentioned in your first post concerns about corrosion weakening the shank. It would be worth investigating how much actual material has been lost, and if re-galvanising the anchor is a possibility. Often rusty parts look worse than they are in reality. Unfortunately, re-galvanising a Spade is more involved than most anchors. The lead has to be removed and then reapplied after galvanising, but labour is not expensive in Turkey and there are many small engineering firms prepared to do this type of work. The steel Spade has a fabricated (probably mild steel) shank so a local welder may be able to repair any lost material. As the Spade is a good and expensive anchor, the possibility of re-galvanising is at least worth looking into.
If the anchor does need replacement I would be even more reluctant to step down to a lower performing model such as the Delta. The M2 would be much better. Unfortunately, I have not seen enough of the M2 underwater to decide if it is slightly better or worse than the steel Spade so I cannot give you a definitive answer on the relative performance you are likely to experience. Another data point is Panope’s excellent anchor tests. In these tests the M2 has done better than the steel Spade and the M2 users I have spoken to have all had positive feedback so I think you are unlikely to be disappointed.
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Irish Rover
Well-known member
Thanks. I hear what you're saying about getting the Spade shank repaired and getting the whole thing re-galvanised but, honestly, I'd always have a concern about the repair and I'd rather sleep at night than worry. I'd definitely buy another Spade if I could get one in Türkiye.
As for the M2 I read a review which mentioned a redesigned shank being issued to early purchasers. I emailed Mantus to ask how I could be sure, if I buy one, that i get the redesigned shank. I got a very satisfactory reply in less than 20 minutes. Impressive. Another big plus is Mantus have an authorised dealer in Türkiye. I'm definitely leaning that direction now.
KAM
Well-known member
Getting a Spade 're galvanised is not that difficult. Just melt the lead out with a propane torch. Get it galvanised. Melt the lead and tip it back in. I did mine a few years ago. Much better now but as the anchor has several relatively sharp edges it's not an ideal subject for galvanising. Never understood why they made it two piece other than to aid manufacture and delivery. Not sure I'd buy another.
Neeves
Well-known member
One of the problems with a Spade is that the shank is hollow and will slowly collect mud, unless you wash the shank out regularly. The mud will inevitably be damp and lead to corrosion. One answer is to simply replace the shank. A local fabricator could easily make one from the high tensile steel, simply by copying your original and making it to the same thickness as the combined thickness of the fabricated version. If you make from HT steel it can be as strong as the fabricated one. The joint will need to be made from a bit of extra steel - to fit the mortice and tenon joint.
One possible reason for the design is to allow the anchor to be easily shipped. Anchors are a devil to pack.
Many of us here are not too impressed with the Panope tests - we have had some interesting threads on the topic. He slated Rocna, one of the most popular designs.
I was pretty honest, and harsh, of the Mantus M1 design, Mantus gave me a full sized model to test. Sadly Mantus did not fancy me testing the M2 - and I've actually never seen one (not too popular in Australia). Given the flault I detected in the M1 - I'm not too full of confidence in the M2.
This is an article on veering of anchors:
Anchor Resetting Tests - Practical Sailor
and another from the same magazine but a different author.
Yawing and Anchor Holding - Practical Sailor
The shallow setting anchor that is not recommended is a..... Mantus M1
And a specific multi hull article on bridles and snubbers
A New Bridle Snubber Hook Design - Practical Sailor
and the reason I would not touch a Mantus M1 with a barge pole
An Inquiry into Anchor Angles - Practical Sailor
This is from a forum on my assessment of the original chain hook, now (fortunately) withdrawn
Disturbing report on MANTUS and other chain hooks
And the original chain hook article
Snubber Chain Hooks Revisited - Practical Sailor
And people wonder why I'm not recommending Mantus.
Jonathan
One possible reason for the design is to allow the anchor to be easily shipped. Anchors are a devil to pack.
Many of us here are not too impressed with the Panope tests - we have had some interesting threads on the topic. He slated Rocna, one of the most popular designs.
I was pretty honest, and harsh, of the Mantus M1 design, Mantus gave me a full sized model to test. Sadly Mantus did not fancy me testing the M2 - and I've actually never seen one (not too popular in Australia). Given the flault I detected in the M1 - I'm not too full of confidence in the M2.
This is an article on veering of anchors:
Anchor Resetting Tests - Practical Sailor
and another from the same magazine but a different author.
Yawing and Anchor Holding - Practical Sailor
The shallow setting anchor that is not recommended is a..... Mantus M1
And a specific multi hull article on bridles and snubbers
A New Bridle Snubber Hook Design - Practical Sailor
and the reason I would not touch a Mantus M1 with a barge pole
An Inquiry into Anchor Angles - Practical Sailor
This is from a forum on my assessment of the original chain hook, now (fortunately) withdrawn
Disturbing report on MANTUS and other chain hooks
And the original chain hook article
Snubber Chain Hooks Revisited - Practical Sailor
And people wonder why I'm not recommending Mantus.
Jonathan
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Kelpie
Well-known member
I realise it's not actually relevant to the OP any more, but just wanted to chip in about Delta copies. I picked up an unbranded one from a chandlers a few years back- 16kg for £35. Couldn't resist, and the boat had a 10kg Bruce which I was very keen to upgrade.
Huge mistake. That lump, despite being quite well constructed with thick steel and good welds, was almost totally useless as an anchor. I guess the geometry was all wrong. I could pretty much always drag it when setting, despite having a modest sized engine and a two blade folding prop that gave poor performance in astern.
It's made me write wary of copies, but I guess buying an anchor at virtually scrap price was a bit too good to be true.
Huge mistake. That lump, despite being quite well constructed with thick steel and good welds, was almost totally useless as an anchor. I guess the geometry was all wrong. I could pretty much always drag it when setting, despite having a modest sized engine and a two blade folding prop that gave poor performance in astern.
It's made me write wary of copies, but I guess buying an anchor at virtually scrap price was a bit too good to be true.
Neeves
Well-known member
The article on yawing.
Many people say their yacht is not susceptible to yawing and why would anyone have doubts of their comments. However yachts yaw because the wind is yawing - and it does not matter whether your yacht is stable, or not, it will yaw with the wind. Many times you will read, even in these illustrious posts, of an anchorage susceptible to bullets of wind coming from variable directions (though the average might be near the true wind direction). The geography and vegetation have large impact on wind direction, gaps in trees, small valleys can all focus the wind and only a slight variation in the average will have those bullters develop in different valleys - causing the yacht to yaw. These same bullets tend to be 'concentrated' or 'focussed' and can be much stronger than the average wind speed - making the yaws quite sharp and sudden.
One solution is to lay shore lines - but this is unrealistic in busier anchorages. Another solution, and it works in busier anchorages, is to define the limits of variation of the wind and then lay a second anchor arranging your ground tackle in a 'fork' or 'V' to be close to the limits of the veer. Each anchor then takes the extremes of load and gust direction in turn.
Jonathan
Many people say their yacht is not susceptible to yawing and why would anyone have doubts of their comments. However yachts yaw because the wind is yawing - and it does not matter whether your yacht is stable, or not, it will yaw with the wind. Many times you will read, even in these illustrious posts, of an anchorage susceptible to bullets of wind coming from variable directions (though the average might be near the true wind direction). The geography and vegetation have large impact on wind direction, gaps in trees, small valleys can all focus the wind and only a slight variation in the average will have those bullters develop in different valleys - causing the yacht to yaw. These same bullets tend to be 'concentrated' or 'focussed' and can be much stronger than the average wind speed - making the yaws quite sharp and sudden.
One solution is to lay shore lines - but this is unrealistic in busier anchorages. Another solution, and it works in busier anchorages, is to define the limits of variation of the wind and then lay a second anchor arranging your ground tackle in a 'fork' or 'V' to be close to the limits of the veer. Each anchor then takes the extremes of load and gust direction in turn.
Jonathan
Irish Rover
Well-known member
Thanks again for the replies. I have to admit a lot of the science is beyond me. I'm also more than a bit lazy so I haven't read all the links, although I hardly need to do so, to understand that @Neeves pretty much rates Mantus as scrap metal.
I've been very happy with my Spade anchor - even if I thought it was a Delta - so I'm going to redouble my effort to locate or acquire one here in Türkiye. The devil you know etc. I've contacted a company in Marmaris which used to stock them and I've also sent a message to Spade so I'm awaiting replies.
I've been very happy with my Spade anchor - even if I thought it was a Delta - so I'm going to redouble my effort to locate or acquire one here in Türkiye. The devil you know etc. I've contacted a company in Marmaris which used to stock them and I've also sent a message to Spade so I'm awaiting replies.
Neeves
Well-known member
If I said what I think I'd not be published nor remain as member here
Even I might suggest a little bit of research would do you no harm. Not everything that is published, on anchors, is sound research.
If you buy another Spade you will not go wrong. It was the original 'new generation' anchor, released, early 1990s, just after the 'new' (then) Delta, late 1980s and had no real competition till around 2006. It has been much copied in whole or part, Rocna, Ultra, Vulcan......
The expression imitation is the sincerest form of flattery is another way to say that copying is a compliment. Or imitation is admiration. In any form of inflection, it means the same thing. The idea has been around for centuries already, but Charles Caleb Colton and Oscar Wilde popularized it.
Spade always has lacked a product champion and good marketing.
And has always been expensive.
But performance always has a cost. If you rely on your anchor cost is just a number.
Jonathan
Irish Rover
Well-known member
Thanks again for all the advice. Much appreciated. I'd rather be boating than researching so I'm happy to listen to experts and combine their opinions with my own experience and instinct. Spade it is, if I can find one, and, if not, I may just defy my inner miser and buy an Ultra.
Stemar
Well-known member
I had a similar thing with a copy CQR. The original genuine one set well and held until it snagged something on the bottom and refused to let go - it's still there. I never did get the copy to set. I replaced it with a Delta that gave sterling service for 15 years, dragging just once, in mud soup in Newtown Creek, a place with notoriously iffy holding. Jazzcat came with a Danforth and a special mounting for it on the foredeck, but it was such a pain to get between the pulpit and the forestay that I got another Delta that lives on the roller, something the Danforth couldn't do.
Neeves
Well-known member
We had the same with a copy CQR - but then saw the light. Modern anchors offer twice the hold, for the same weight and are very forgiving even if you don't set with care.
We also now have a real cross section of designs of good anchors to choose from.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-known member
Ultra is as good as any, just pricey. I have always felt it to be sufficiently beautiful that its a shame to get it wet. But maybe they are cheaper in Turkey - make sure you buy an original.
On taking care - the original Ultra had a completely hollow shank. It must had had robustness issues and they re-engineered with a web of stainless up the centre of the shank (its welded on both sides). If you see a, cheap, second hand anchor - beware. I don't know when they did the upgrade.
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-known member
That's a very interesting photo that I had not seen before. Shank strength must be increased dramatically by this measure.
I have spoken to many Ultra owners, most of whom were seasoned yachtsmen with long histories of anchor ownership. I don't think I ever found one who thought it was not the best anchor they had ever owned.
Neeves
Well-known member
The manufacturer needed to have it approved by a Classification Society as many of these anchors are used on vessels in survey (and beefing up the shank might have been a precautionary measure). They 'employed' ABS to conduct the assessment and part of the procedure is to test the integrity of the manufacture - a proof test. The anchor is restrained at the toe, tensioned at the shackle hole and the anchor has to have an allowed minimum deformation, depends on size.
This picture below is for the Ultra. Other anchors also submitted for Classification Society approval all have to pass a similar test (which includes Spade - and Spade can be used on RNLI vessels). Ultra, Spade, Epsilon, Fortress, Excel ... are all SHHP anchors and have passed for proof testing (and have twice the hold of a similarly weighted Delta)
I was slightly amused that the Ultra was handled with kid gloves, or at east bubble wrap, and my guess was (and one should never guess) - this particular anchor of t passed was probably to join the next shipment for sale (and you would not go through this expensive exercise unless you were sure of certification).
This is a Spade on an RNLI boat.
boomerangben
Well-known member
I don’t have the dimensions or other details of a spade, but here’s a quick, “back of fag packet” calculation for the strength needed at the hole in the shank where the shackle goes:
I googled your Fountaine Pajot 34 - displacement is 7t
Yield strength of bog standard tensile steel is about 250N/mm^2
If you were to hang your boat vertically, you would need about 275 sqmm of steel (no safety factor). That’s a piece of steel about an inch by half an inch.
So if you measure the width (or thickness) of your shank and multiply it by the depth of it less than the width of the hole, I’m pretty sure you will come up with a figure of at least 275sqmm. I very much doubt you need to be concerned about the shank not being strong enough at the shackle point. The steel used in shanks would be stronger than bog standard and you will never get anyway near 7te being transferred to the anchor - I suspect your cleat/bollard would have long given up.
I googled your Fountaine Pajot 34 - displacement is 7t
Yield strength of bog standard tensile steel is about 250N/mm^2
If you were to hang your boat vertically, you would need about 275 sqmm of steel (no safety factor). That’s a piece of steel about an inch by half an inch.
So if you measure the width (or thickness) of your shank and multiply it by the depth of it less than the width of the hole, I’m pretty sure you will come up with a figure of at least 275sqmm. I very much doubt you need to be concerned about the shank not being strong enough at the shackle point. The steel used in shanks would be stronger than bog standard and you will never get anyway near 7te being transferred to the anchor - I suspect your cleat/bollard would have long given up.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
Thank you for taking the trouble. As I said earlier the shank is badly rusted especially around the hole. I actually took it off yesterday and got a guy to weld around it to add some strength. It will do for now for my day sailing but I will definitely replace it before I anchor out overnight again - I'd rather sleep well with lighter pockets than be awake wondering or worrying.
Neeves
Well-known member
From memory, never to be relied on, the steel for the shank of a Spade anchor is 'higher' tensile. I don't know that Spade define what steel but think they say it is 'high' tensile.
I have measured the steel used and if you simply measure the two larger sides of the 'box' the thickness of the 2 sides is the same as the thickness of the HT steel used in an Excel anchor. Again from memory around 15mm for a 15kg anchor.
If this is all correct then as Ben used mild steel for his calculation the extra tensile strength I think they actually use gives you a decent safety margin.
Jonathan