Definitive list of windvane options?

[Wandering Star]

If you go long distance sailing the great majority of wind vanes you will see are Hydrovanes, Aries are second in a small number.

The reasons for buying a wind vane are they don't use electricity, don't eat or sleep and are on watch 24 hours a day for weeks. We viewed our Hydrovane as an extra crew member, doing all the steering.

You’ve made this claim before and I simply don’t believe it. I would guess that worldwide, Aries or Monitor are by far the most popular/common systems.

 

[capnsensible]

I may be mistaken,( & if I am apologies would be due) but this claim (about Hydrovanes being more popular) was made by someone on an earlier forum post & they were proved wrong then, I seem to recall !!

Mmm. I can only say that nearly 20 years of my own observations cruising around the crossing routes of saily boats is that Kelly is right. Still there may be contributors on this thread who have read about things and know better.

Normal for forums!

 

[Daydream believer]

One thing that I have noticed is that (even on boats in regular use) how many wind vane systems are tied up out of use & are clearly not being used by the owners. When asked one normally receive replies like " Oh it is good but we only use it for long trips"
To me that seems a pointless waste. Mine often gets engaged as soon as the sails are up & i am settled down. It is such a simple operation & I will confidently use it in quite confined waters, unless motoring or expecting to make continuous alterations of course , in which case I would be at the helm anyway

 

[Poignard]

One thing that I have noticed is that (even on boats in regular use) how many wind vane systems are tied up out of use & are clearly not being used by the owners. When asked one normally receive replies like " Oh it is good but we only use it for long trips"
To me that seems a pointless waste. Mine often gets engaged as soon as the sails are up & i am settled down. It is such a simple operation & I will confidently use it in quite confined waters, unless motoring or expecting to make continuous alterations of course , in which case I would be at the helm anyway

My Monitor only takes a moment to bring into action and I use it on every occasion I can. All I have to do is let the paddle down into the water, turn the wind vane to the appropriate direction according to the required point of sailing, engage the tiller lines and that's all. If I want to tack. I just rotate the wind vane through the tacking angle and round she comes. It couldn't be simpler.

If a sudden wind shift occurs, or something is in the way, I can disengage it instantly and take the tiller.

It cost a fair bit of money but I reckon it was money well spent.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have a seafeather on a 26ft double ender. I also have a tillerpilot. One major advantage of the wind vane is that it works better as the wind increases whereas the autopilot struggles, and finally gives up. Generally I only use the autopilot for motoring, usually at the beginning and end of trips for which it performs adequately. Also the power availability on smaller boats like mine tends to be quite modest. My main concern is the vulnerability of the wind vane whist berthed in a marina.

Chuck Paine design? Because I could have written that! I don't find the marina limitation too bad because I always go in bow first (handling in astern? pfft) anyway, but having such an expensive thing so vulnerable is a general concern ... I get very nervous about being in front of numpties in the Crinan Canal.

 

[KellysEye]

>Can you provide some real evidence of this? Seems implausible to me given that Hydrovane is only one of so many different designs/makes - as well as being one of the most expensive and not suitable for all boats.

The number of Hydroves was what Jane and I saw they were on yachts ranging from 32 feet to 50 feet. That alone proves they are suitable for all boats the size of the sail depends on the the length and weight of the boat. One of the reasons why they are so popular is they can be offset anywhere on the stern few others can do that, I only know of one.

 

[Tranona]

>Can you provide some real evidence of this? Seems implausible to me given that Hydrovane is only one of so many different designs/makes - as well as being one of the most expensive and not suitable for all boats.

The number of Hydroves was what Jane and I saw they were on yachts ranging from 32 feet to 50 feet. That alone proves they are suitable for all boats the size of the sail depends on the the length and weight of the boat. One of the reasons why they are so popular is they can be offset anywhere on the stern few others can do that, I only know of one.

This is not evidence. This is just your personal observations from a very long time ago. It does not "prove" anything as firstly you have not seen all the yachts sailing with windvanes, neither have you been everywhere in the world where yachts sail. There are at least 3 people on this thread with substantial experience sailing in different parts of the world who are saying the opposite from you.

This does not make them any more right or wrong than you - it just means they have seen different patterns in different places.

You really need to understand that personal observation is by its nature personal and limited so does not prove anything.

The fact that the Hydrovane can be fitted off centre just means it is more suitable for some types of boat, but there are many more boats where this is not necessary and can be fitted with other types. This is hardly surprising - as you say most others can't. So if it was an essential characteristic then everybody would make their product to do this.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You really need to understand that personal observation is by its nature personal and limited so does not prove anything.

"Everybody can easily find £100,000 to buy a new boat. Everyone in my yacht club says so."

 

[Triassic]

I am afraid that is an ill informed comment.
You can fit a trim tab to the back of a rudder.You do not need to cut anything off the rudder.
I was going to buy one for my first Stella back in the 60's ( Quartermaster I think) & this attached to the back of the rudder with simple straps. the rudder was keel hung. In the end I followed a design from the amateur yacht research group & made my own which had nothing in the water. I did this as I raced the boat & did not want any drag when not using the vane. Some Folkboat owners used it & they say it worked OK except for down wind. that is the weakness of a lot of vanes - even modern ones.

Two points, firstly I concede I should have used the word "efficiently" rather than "effectively". A trim tab simply added to the back of an existing rudder can have an "effect" however it is a very crude method and your reference to it's use on a keel hung rudder is pretty much where it belongs.

Secondly I was referring to a balanced rudder, which a keel hung rudder generally is not. Before we go off on a tangent I'm well aware that a vessel with a keel hung rudder can be "balanced" in that it can be sailed hands off, but that is not the same thing as a balanced rudder.

With a balanced rudder the effort we apply to the tiller (or wheel) is not the force that directly acts on the water and steers the boat. All we are doing is altering the rudders angle of attack which then causes it to generate lift in the desired direction. Balanced rudders are particularly popular with higher performance vessels because it keeps steering loads low regardless of the speeds. Another way of steering with a balanced rudder is with a trim tab. In theory you don't need a tiller or wheel attached to the actual rudder (but we always have one for use at slow speeds) the steering input is introduced to the tab which alters the shape of the rudders trailing edge, which alters the angle of attack.....which then generates the lift. It works the same way as an elevator or aileron on an aircraft wing, which is in effect exactly what the rudder is.

The relevance of my original comment is that if you take the top part of a self steering system designed to operate a trim tab on a balanced rudder and bolt it to your transom hung rudder to which you have added a trim tab, then it may not generate the forces required to do what you expect. The trim tab doesn't generate the force to steer the boat, it should generate the force to turn (trim) the rudder which then generates the force required to steer. If you add a tab to the trailing edge of a balanced rudder you are adding area behind the centre of lift, it will no longer be balanced!

 

[Daydream believer]

Two points, firstly I concede I should have used the word "efficiently" rather than "effectively". A trim tab simply added to the back of an existing rudder can have an "effect" however it is a very crude method and your reference to it's use on a keel hung rudder is pretty much where it belongs.

Secondly I was referring to a balanced rudder, which a keel hung rudder generally is not. Before we go off on a tangent I'm well aware that a vessel with a keel hung rudder can be "balanced" in that it can be sailed hands off, but that is not the same thing as a balanced rudder.

With a balanced rudder the effort we apply to the tiller (or wheel) is not the force that directly acts on the water and steers the boat. All we are doing is altering the rudders angle of attack which then causes it to generate lift in the desired direction. Balanced rudders are particularly popular with higher performance vessels because it keeps steering loads low regardless of the speeds. Another way of steering with a balanced rudder is with a trim tab. In theory you don't need a tiller or wheel attached to the actual rudder (but we always have one for use at slow speeds) the steering input is introduced to the tab which alters the shape of the rudders trailing edge, which alters the angle of attack.....which then generates the lift. It works the same way as an elevator or aileron on an aircraft wing, which is in effect exactly what the rudder is.

The relevance of my original comment is that if you take the top part of a self steering system designed to operate a trim tab on a balanced rudder and bolt it to your transom hung rudder to which you have added a trim tab, then it may not generate the forces required to do what you expect. The trim tab doesn't generate the force to steer the boat, it should generate the force to turn (trim) the rudder which then generates the force required to steer. If you add a tab to the trailing edge of a balanced rudder you are adding area behind the centre of lift, it will no longer be balanced!

Hang on!! I was replying to your post that said :-

"For a trim tab design to work effectively the rudder needs to be balanced,"

I pointed out that your comment was faulty as the trim tab would, in most cases, be fitted to a transom mounted rudder. That would not normally be a balanced one. Which is the opposite to what you were suggesting

Whilst you go to great detail regarding balanced rudders one should point out that most rudders like those you describe are set under the stern & to fit a trim tab would be extremely difficult anyway, so most of your comment above is pretty much pointless, as far as self steering systems go.

Whilst we are on the subject, not all "trim tabs" were fitted tight to the trailing edge of the rudder. There were a couple of designs that were held away from the trailing edge & connected by straps. This gave better leverage & quicker response. The Sayles rig does something similar but I cannot imagine fitting that to a modern AWB

They died out I believe, because the Hasler type gear was found to be more powerful & because they failed in the power of the vane rather than the power of the steering system itself. They had vertical pivot vanes whereas the horizontal ( slightly angled) vanes soon proved to give greater response

 

[Triassic]

Hang on!! I was replying to your post that said :-

"For a trim tab design to work effectively the rudder needs to be balanced,"

I pointed out that your comment was faulty as the trim tab would, in most cases, be fitted to a transom mounted rudder. That would not normally be a balanced one. Which is the opposite to what you were suggesting

Whilst you go to great detail regarding balanced rudders one should point out that most rudders like those you describe are set under the stern & to fit a trim tab would be extremely difficult anyway, so most of your comment above is pretty much pointless, as far as self steering systems go.

Whilst we are on the subject, not all "trim tabs" were fitted tight to the trailing edge of the rudder. There were a couple of designs that were held away from the trailing edge & connected by straps. This gave better leverage & quicker response. The Sayles rig does something similar but I cannot imagine fitting that to a modern AWB

They died out I believe, because the Hasler type gear was found to be more powerful & because they failed in the power of the vane rather than the power of the steering system itself. They had vertical pivot vanes whereas the horizontal ( slightly angled) vanes soon proved to give greater response

Not sure I needed to quote your text as everybody else seems to have sat down with their popcorn whilst we thrash this little disagreement out. I conceded that I should have used the word "efficiently" instead of "effectively" because if you hang a barn door off the back of something it's going to have an effect, so as you say my comment was "faulty". One nil to you.

Yes trim tabs tend to be fitted to transom hung rudders, not because they have to be but as you correctly suggest the practicalities of operating them dictates so. Transom hung rudders most certainly can be balanced, mine is for starters, and as the OP was talking about fitting a trim tab to a transom hung rudder my observations certainly are not pointless. One all.

Yes trim tabs can be more powerful the further they are located away from the point of axis, and designs that do so are attempting to increase their effect without increasing the energy requirement to make them work. As you point out various designs failed because the vane didn't generate the power to make the design work, which is exactly what I was warning the OP about. One nil to me.

In response to your earlier jibe about me being misinformed most of my views come from the past two years working with my father to design a system that might work on my boat. He designs, builds and fits self steering systems to yachts for a living, mostly long distance cruisers, and has numerous examples safely sailing all around the world. His design involves a fully balanced freely rotating auxiliary rudder (no tiller/wheel attachment) that is transom mounted and controlled via a trim tab in the manner I described earlier, and this is controlled either with a small wind vane (that incidentally can be remotely mounted away from the transom, for example on the windward rail) or a small tiller pilot such at an ST1000, and that's on a 20T yacht. Efficient, I'd say so.

Lets not chuck insults at each other simply because we hold differing views, lets instead offer up what we know or believe and let those that seek the information form their own opinions.

 

[Daydream believer]

Lets not chuck insults at each other simply because we hold differing views, lets instead offer up what we know or believe and let those that seek the information form their own opinions.

No intention to chuck insults. Just point out that I felt that you had given a misleading comment.
I to have spent time playing with & building wind vane steering . Not as much as your father, obviously, but possibly before you were born ( you would have to be less than 55 though!!!). Things have moved on, however,But I do think I am entitled, as you are, to debate the issue.
But no intention to offend. Just disagree like hell. Live would be boring if we could not. I wish you well :encouragement:

 

[Kelpie]

Not sure I needed to quote your text as everybody else seems to have sat down with their popcorn whilst we thrash this little disagreement out. I conceded that I should have used the word "efficiently" instead of "effectively" because if you hang a barn door off the back of something it's going to have an effect, so as you say my comment was "faulty". One nil to you.

Yes trim tabs tend to be fitted to transom hung rudders, not because they have to be but as you correctly suggest the practicalities of operating them dictates so. Transom hung rudders most certainly can be balanced, mine is for starters, and as the OP was talking about fitting a trim tab to a transom hung rudder my observations certainly are not pointless. One all.

Yes trim tabs can be more powerful the further they are located away from the point of axis, and designs that do so are attempting to increase their effect without increasing the energy requirement to make them work. As you point out various designs failed because the vane didn't generate the power to make the design work, which is exactly what I was warning the OP about. One nil to me.

In response to your earlier jibe about me being misinformed most of my views come from the past two years working with my father to design a system that might work on my boat. He designs, builds and fits self steering systems to yachts for a living, mostly long distance cruisers, and has numerous examples safely sailing all around the world. His design involves a fully balanced freely rotating auxiliary rudder (no tiller/wheel attachment) that is transom mounted and controlled via a trim tab in the manner I described earlier, and this is controlled either with a small wind vane (that incidentally can be remotely mounted away from the transom, for example on the windward rail) or a small tiller pilot such at an ST1000, and that's on a 20T yacht. Efficient, I'd say so.

Lets not chuck insults at each other simply because we hold differing views, lets instead offer up what we know or believe and let those that seek the information form their own opinions.

getting back to the point of this thread, any chance you could add his vane to the list?

 

[Triassic]

getting back to the point of this thread, any chance you could add his vane to the list?

Why not...... He's based in Northeast Brazil so unless you are going that way it's probably not a lot of help to you, but he is finally listening to what everybody has been saying to him for years and getting everything into a format where we would be able to supply plans along with a few critical parts (mainly the gears on the head) if you're not local.....

This probably tells you all you need to know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQsoUCYmOco

 

[1937rogerdon]

One more for the list. Schwing. A German vane which may well be out of production. Used for many years on both my Vancouver’s 28 & 32.

 

[doug748]

Saye's rig (Scanmar) may have been mentioned:
http://www.selfsteer.com/products/sayes/index.php

There was also the Atlantic, made in Somerset and not the same as the South Atlantic gear:
http://www.south-atlantic.com.ar/

The Lavanter was produced in the UK for boats under 25ft, aux rudder.

 

[Brent Swain]

HP

Why bother with a wind vane these days.odern autopilots are extremely reliable, you can buy 3 for the cost of a wind vane and with the power charging systems on boats these days power is no longer an issue.

Reliability, and the ability to repair anywhere. Cost, if you build your own ,less than $75 in materials

 

[Brent Swain]

Build your own. I sent John Morris the drawings for mine, which has worked well for over 3 decades and several Pacific crossings, as well as several circumnavigations on other boats. All you have to do is convince John to post them here. I have tried, to no avail.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

When under sail I don't want to hear anything except the wind, the sea and, at intervals, the whistling kettle.

Beautifully put! :encouragement:

p.s. In my case I would only substitute the burbling of the Moka for the whistling kettle.

 

[zoidberg]

Beautifully put! :encouragement:

p.s. In my case I would only substitute the burbling of the Moka for the whistling kettle.

Huh! You exotic Orientals....

...Well seen you're not English, or even Yorkshire!