Definition of laid-up?

[iain789]

A pal of mine (no, really) had the misfortune recently to have his boat sink while it was alongside a pontoon in a marina. The sinking appears to have been related to a failed skin fitting. Although the boat has been pumped out and made watertight, naturally a lot of damage has been done - electrics, engine, soft furnishings etc, not to mention everything being covered in a fine film of diesel oil.

He contacted his insurers who informed him that he was not covered, as the policy stated that the boat should be laid-up during the winter months, and they said that meant on the hard. Now his boat was laid-up in the sense that all the sails were off and ashore, the engine had been winterised, and all water tanks drained. The boat never leaves the pontoon during the winter months.

Question is, does anyone know what the marine insurance industry generally defines as laid-up?

 

[sailorman]

A pal of mine (no, really) had the misfortune recently to have his boat sink while it was alongside a pontoon in a marina. The sinking appears to have been related to a failed skin fitting. Although the boat has been pumped out and made watertight, naturally a lot of damage has been done - electrics, engine, soft furnishings etc, not to mention everything being covered in a fine film of diesel oil.

He contacted his insurers who informed him that he was not covered, as the policy stated that the boat should be laid-up during the winter months, and they said that meant on the hard. Now his boat was laid-up in the sense that all the sails were off and ashore, the engine had been winterised, and all water tanks drained. The boat never leaves the pontoon during the winter months.

Question is, does anyone know what the marine insurance industry generally defines as laid-up?

Read his policy
mine is 12 months "in commission" that is in my marina berth, or in the summer on my tidal mooring.
read the wording

 

[jwilson]

A pal of mine (no, really) had the misfortune recently to have his boat sink while it was alongside a pontoon in a marina. The sinking appears to have been related to a failed skin fitting. Although the boat has been pumped out and made watertight, naturally a lot of damage has been done - electrics, engine, soft furnishings etc, not to mention everything being covered in a fine film of diesel oil.

He contacted his insurers who informed him that he was not covered, as the policy stated that the boat should be laid-up during the winter months, and they said that meant on the hard. Now his boat was laid-up in the sense that all the sails were off and ashore, the engine had been winterised, and all water tanks drained. The boat never leaves the pontoon during the winter months.

Question is, does anyone know what the marine insurance industry generally defines as laid-up?

Ships are often laid up on moorings. I think it takes up too much space to park them ashore. However yacht policies will usually have somewhere in the policy wording, often in a DEFINITIONS section, that laid up means ashore. If this is the case he's not covered. If it is not specified in the policy wording than there is a case to argue - boats laid up afloat and ashore can both get damaged, sometimes ashore accidents can be worse - eg the row of yachts ashore blown over donino-style in Plymouth a few years ago.

 

[prv]

I'm not certain, but I believe mine specifically defines "laid up afloat" and "laid up ashore", together with "in commission". All three are covered.

Pete

 

[sailorman]

A pal of mine (no, really) had the misfortune recently to have his boat sink while it was alongside a pontoon in a marina. The sinking appears to have been related to a failed skin fitting. Although the boat has been pumped out and made watertight, naturally a lot of damage has been done - electrics, engine, soft furnishings etc, not to mention everything being covered in a fine film of diesel oil.

He contacted his insurers who informed him that he was not covered, as the policy stated that the boat should be laid-up during the winter months, and they said that meant on the hard. Now his boat was laid-up in the sense that all the sails were off and ashore, the engine had been winterised, and all water tanks drained. The boat never leaves the pontoon during the winter months.

Question is, does anyone know what the marine insurance industry generally defines as laid-up?

Where is she "normally" berthed

 

[Tranona]

It should show on the schedule as it is specific to the policy rather than a general condition. I think the distinctions are

In commission - means the boat can be sailed at any time so is covered when out sailing.

Laid up - means not in commission and therefore not covered if out sailing.

Laid up can be ashore or afloat and pretty sure the policy schedule would state clearly if it is required to be ashore. If it is just laid up and not qualified then insurance should cover it. Time for a bit of expert advice.

 

[wotayottie]

I agree with Tranona. In any case it would be useful to know the insurance company for the benefit of those like me who are laid up afloat

 

[NormanS]

As others have said. Check what it says in the Policy. Our previous boat was "Laid Up" every winter in the Caley Canal, and the insurance was happy with that.

 

[iain789]

Thanks all.

the wording in their "Definitions" is -

Laid up: When Your boat is not fitted out and not ready for immediate
use and is not used for any purpose other than fitting out or
normal overhauling, (including hauling out and lifting by
crane), for the period shown in Your Schedule.

 

[prv]

the wording in their "Definitions" is -

Laid up: When Your boat is not fitted out and not ready for immediate
use and is not used for any purpose other than fitting out or
normal overhauling, (including hauling out and lifting by
crane), for the period shown in Your Schedule.

Well then, he clearly complies. Sails were off, boat not ready for immediate use, and was not being used. Nothing in that definition about being ashore. Time for some sharp words with the insurers.

Pete

 

[iain789]

He's going to contact them again tomorrow so I'll wait till I hear what their reply is before publicising their name.

 

[sailorman]

Thanks all.

the wording in their "Definitions" is -

Laid up: When Your boat is not fitted out and not ready for immediate
use and is not used for any purpose other than fitting out or
normal overhauling, (including hauling out and lifting by
crane), for the period shown in Your Schedule.

this is the issue i guess

 

[jwilson]

He's going to contact them again tomorrow so I'll wait till I hear what their reply is before publicising their name.

The fact that the engine was winterised (presumably belts slackened, impeller removed etc) and no sails were on board is fairly solid evidence that the boat was "not ready for immediate use".

 

[prv]

for the period shown in Your Schedule.

this is the issue i guess

The original post said the policy required the boat to be laid up "during the winter months". Unless they're arguing that December is not a winter month, I can't see that this is relevant.

Pete

 

[Babylon]

Some idiot at the insurers is trying it on!

This is why one should always insure through a reputable broker - who will fight your corner for you.

This guy has saved me a small fortune on more than one occasion:
http://www.simonwintermarine.co.uk/

 

[Searush]

I contacted my insurers when I first decided to leave SR in over winter, they weren't bothered, but sent me a schedule that said 12 months in commision. I suppose I ought to tell them I've craned her out this year.

OK, another task for tomorrow.

 

[jac]

Don't waste too much time fighting the insurer

Speak tomorrow, if they don't cave in, ask to make a formal complaint.

If the complaint is rejected, make sure you get a final letter from them. It should by law contain the details of how to raise your complaint with the financial ombudsman.

No way on earth that the Ombudsman will find in their favour.

In the meantime, get the boat fixed, keep all the receipts, and get multiple quotes for the work.

Ombudsman decision (based on their usual redress calculation) will be for the insurers to pick up all your out of pocket expenses (I.e, the cost of putting it right) and you might get a couple of hundred pounds compensation if the ombudsman is feeling generous, but more likely £100.

Best thing is though that the insurers have to pay £500 costs to the Ombudsman so it hurts them more than if they had done it correctly.

You can use this in your favour when speaking to the company. If they start prevaricating just ask them to issue the letter of deadlock so that you can go to the Ombudsman. Mention that you're certain you'll win but really you just want to ensure that they pay one way or another, either direct to you to fix it or in management time and FOS fees. They will often make a commercial decision that it's cheaper to pay you off now than try and fight where they know it will cost them £1000 even if they win.

And make sure that you make the complaint tomorrow. If they don't resolve it within 56 days then you can go to the ombudsman anyway, eve if they haven't sent you a letter. The fact that Xmas and new year was in the way was irrelevant, complain tomorrow and come 17th Feb you are entitled to go to the ombudsman.

 

[sailorman]

I contacted my insurers when I first decided to leave SR in over winter, they weren't bothered, but sent me a schedule that said 12 months in commision. I suppose I ought to tell them I've craned her out this year.

OK, another task for tomorrow.

Dont bother phoning you are covered

 

[sailorman]

Speak tomorrow, if they don't cave in, ask to make a formal complaint.

If the complaint is rejected, make sure you get a final letter from them. It should by law contain the details of how to raise your complaint with the financial ombudsman.

No way on earth that the Ombudsman will find in their favour.

In the meantime, get the boat fixed, keep all the receipts, and get multiple quotes for the work.

Ombudsman decision (based on their usual redress calculation) will be for the insurers to pick up all your out of pocket expenses (I.e, the cost of putting it right) and you might get a couple of hundred pounds compensation if the ombudsman is feeling generous, but more likely £100.

Best thing is though that the insurers have to pay £500 costs to the Ombudsman so it hurts them more than if they had done it correctly.

You can use this in your favour when speaking to the company. If they start prevaricating just ask them to issue the letter of deadlock so that you can go to the Ombudsman. Mention that you're certain you'll win but really you just want to ensure that they pay one way or another, either direct to you to fix it or in management time and FOS fees. They will often make a commercial decision that it's cheaper to pay you off now than try and fight where they know it will cost them £1000 even if they win.

And make sure that you make the complaint tomorrow. If they don't resolve it within 56 days then you can go to the ombudsman anyway, eve if they haven't sent you a letter. The fact that Xmas and new year was in the way was irrelevant, complain tomorrow and come 17th Feb you are entitled to go to the ombudsman.

follow-up the call with a letter by registered post

 

[Tomahawk]

I see no reason to not name and shame right now..

From the information given, the boat complies with the requirement of not being availabe for immediate use.... The insurance company has already treated your friend badly already by trying to argue instead of honouring the claim. They will do that to othe forumites if given the chance.

This forum is read by some pretty influential people. Indeed for the benefit of all it would be better if everyone knew about it now. I had a bad experience with an insurance company, nothing to do with sailing. I posted about it on Scuttlebutt and got an almost immediate appology and solution