Deep Breath - anchor thread

[KellysEye]

We had two Fortress anchors one was used a kedge or off the bows as the second anchor if the wind was due to go to gale force plus. The second one was a monster to be used a second anchor in storm conditions. We didn't use either for the main bow anchor for the reason mentioned. Our main anchor was a CQR but it must be set properly by dragging it until you come to a violent halt with the chain straight out.

 

[dom]

Some of us have saily boats, and actually use them as such. Is there any particular difference in the force applied on an anchor by an engine, and the force applied by the wind? Maybe the much vaunted "New Generation" anchors are only suitable for motor boats? (Flac jacket ready).

Perhaps the forum has been through its own Age of Enlightenment and can now calmly critique even the most contentious topics .

 

[john_morris_uk]

We had two Fortress anchors one was used a kedge or off the bows as the second anchor if the wind was due to go to gale force plus. The second one was a monster to be used a second anchor in storm conditions. We didn't use either for the main bow anchor for the reason mentioned. Our main anchor was a CQR but it must be set properly by dragging it until you come to a violent halt with the chain straight out.

It was the 'dragging it' bit that put me off eventually. We changed to a modern design and was amazed at how the thing just 'stuck like glue' as soon as it hit the bottom. (And I used to swear by my genuine CQR!)

 

[prv]

At every turn of tide or change of wind? If not, why bother the first time?

Once it's buried by pulling on it with the engine, it can turn around in situ in most bottoms. So it doesn't need to re-set from scratch each time.

In fact I'd be pretty confident in my Spade even if it was pulled out of the bottom by mischevious seahorses on every tide and left to reset, or if dropped while drifting after stowing the last sail (ie without any attempt to set it by sailing past it or backing the main). But if I've motored into position which in practice I almost always will have done in this boat, it costs me nothing to give it a few seconds at max revs in reverse to make certain-sure. So why not?

Pete

 

[noelex]

Some of us have saily boats, and actually use them as such. Is there any particular difference in the force applied on an anchor by an engine, and the force applied by the wind? Maybe the much vaunted "New Generation" anchors are only suitable for motor boats? (Flac jacket ready).

Better put on that jacket Norman .

As you say, a gradually rising wind provides an ideal force to set an anchor. Where this falls down is if the anchor is not set and you have a rapidly increasing wind or even worse a sudden strong wind from a new direction. This latter case is particularly a problem because the boat can develop some considerable momentum. If the anchor is unset it has to set very rapidly when the sudden snatch force is applied. A good anchor in a good substrate will do this, but anchors ideally like a nice slow build up of force to start to dig in.

The other advantage of setting your anchor when it is initially dropped is that it provides a test. I build up to full revs in reverse for 30 seconds. This seems to be the equivalent of around 30 knots of wind. If the substrate is unsuitable, or if the anchor is lying on some debris the engine force will reveal the problem.

It is possible to set your anchor when coming into an anchorage under sail. It is not easy in all conditions to apply the ideal gradually increasing force that is possible when using engine power, but in most cases an acceptable result can be obtained.

Many boats that anchor under sail don't bother to take the steps to set the anchor. In light wind the anchor will look something like the photos below. In most cases if the wind picks up this will allow the anchor to set very nicely, but if the wind rises rapidly you are making life difficult for your anchor. Once an anchor is sliding along the bottom it has a tough time starting to get a grip:

What about this sort of case. If the wind pick up will the anchor dig in or will it get caught on the tyre and never set?

 

[NormanS]

Better put on that jacket Norman .

As you say, a gradually rising wind provides an ideal force to set an anchor. Where this falls down is if the anchor is not set and you have a rapidly increasing wind or even worse a sudden strong wind from a new direction. This latter case is particularly a problem because the boat can develop some considerable momentum. If the anchor is unset it has to set very rapidly when the sudden snatch force is applied. A good anchor in a good substrate will do this, but anchors ideally like a nice slow build up of force to start to dig in.

The other advantage of setting your anchor when it is initially dropped is that it provides a test. I build up to full revs in reverse for 30 seconds. This seems to be the equivalent of around 30 knots of wind. If the substrate is unsuitable, or if the anchor is lying on some debris the engine force will reveal the problem.

It is possible to set your anchor when coming into an anchorage under sail. It is not easy in all conditions to apply the ideal gradually increasing force that is possible when using engine power, but in most cases an acceptable result can be obtained.

Many boats that anchor under sail don't bother to take the steps to set the anchor. In light wind the anchor will look something like the photos below. In most cases if the wind picks up this will allow the anchor to set very nicely, but if the wind rises rapidly you are making life difficult for your anchor. Once an anchor is sliding along the bottom it has a tough time starting to get a grip:

What about this sort of case. If the wind pick up will the anchor dig in or will it get caught on the tyre and never set?

I do try not to anchor in grassy fields with old tyres lying about.

To be honest, if I motor to my anchoring position, I do pull back with the engine, but on the fairly frequent times where we anchor under sail, I am very unlikely to start the engine, just to pull back on the anchor. People have been anchoring sailing boats quite successfully, long before engines were invented. Unlike in one of your photos, I am careful not to drop my chain like a "Walnut Whip", all around and on top of the anchor.

As my boat is at present lying to two anchors in a Bahamian Moor, unattended in the Outer Hebrides, I am happy to confirm that both anchors were subjected to full and prolonged engine revs.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

I do try not to anchor in grassy fields with old tyres lying about.

To be honest, if I motor to my anchoring position, I do pull back with the engine, but on the fairly frequent times where we anchor under sail, I am very unlikely to start the engine, just to pull back on the anchor. People have been anchoring sailing boats quite successfully, long before engines were invented. Unlike in one of your photos, I am careful not to drop my chain like a "Walnut Whip", all around and on top of the anchor.

As my boat is at present lying to two anchors in a Bahamian Moor, unattended in the Outer Hebrides, I am happy to confirm that both anchors were subjected to full and prolonged engine revs.

Once you have stopped moving, back your mainsail to bed in the anchor, before taking transits.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

Yes. They were common, and standard fitment on Centaurs at one time with a Danforth. However, things have moved on since then and self stowing on the roller is now common and Delta or new generation anchors are much more suitable - as well as being better all round anchors.

"Self-stowing" implies the use of a windlass. I was thinking more in terms of us impecunious types who have boats that are not so equipped

 

[oldbilbo]

It's years since I last saw anyone - other than myself - sketch 'anchor bearings' onto a notepad after successfully/satisfactorily embedding the anchor..... together with the Plan For Getting The Hell Out Of There in case of need, during a black night with horizontal rain and 40-knot fog. I do this 'cos I was shown the reason 'when ah were a lad' on my first JSASTC week-long course, way back before it was called that, and I buy into that quality of 'the ordinary practice of seamen'.

I don't recall, either, the practice ever being mentioned by any RYA Cruising/Yachtmaster Instructor - and I've met a few o' they. Perhaps, as we have a nearly-tame and widely-experienced RYA Examiner who pops in here from time to time, we might persuade him to outline 'the party line' on such practices.... for the benefit of all.

 

[prv]

It's years since I last saw anyone - other than myself - sketch 'anchor bearings' onto a notepad after successfully/satisfactorily embedding the anchor

I used to religiously take transits when I anchored overnight, in order to establish whether I might be dragging later on, and where they weren't abundantly clear I would sometimes sketch them on a piece of scrap paper and clip it near the companionway. But nowadays I tend to just rely on the anchor watch feature of my AIS display

(The fact that I now have an absurdly oversized Spade anchor also means I don't actually worry about dragging anyway...)

Pete

 

[sarabande]

ahem !

This year's Dazed Kipper course. Exercises, Part B. Seamanship.

Q3 Once a boat has been anchored it is important for the skipper to check that the anchor is holding well and that the vessel is not dragging. Give 2 ways that this could be done.

And anchor bearings were covered in the coursework. Perhaps I was just lucky in the instructors ?

 

[Bru]

You may not, and in fact probably won't, see me taking bearings etc. when I anchor but that doesn't mean I'm not doing it in my head! I'll have lined up a transit, if there is one, or eyeballed the angle between a stanchion and an object ashore etc. and filed it away in the grey matter. Not much point in writing it down 'cos there's generally only me and the missus and the missus wouldn't wake up until the water was making the duvet soggy! By then, I venture to suggest, the subject of the anchor dragging would be a bit academic!

 

[john_morris_uk]

It's years since I last saw anyone - other than myself - sketch 'anchor bearings' onto a notepad after successfully/satisfactorily embedding the anchor..... together with the Plan For Getting The Hell Out Of There in case of need, during a black night with horizontal rain and 40-knot fog. I do this 'cos I was shown the reason 'when ah were a lad' on my first JSASTC week-long course, way back before it was called that, and I buy into that quality of 'the ordinary practice of seamen'.

I don't recall, either, the practice ever being mentioned by any RYA Cruising/Yachtmaster Instructor - and I've met a few o' they. Perhaps, as we have a nearly-tame and widely-experienced RYA Examiner who pops in here from time to time, we might persuade him to outline 'the party line' on such practices.... for the benefit of all.

You've obviously never sailed with me yet... Making a written note of bearings or a mental note of transits once one is anchored is the ordinary practice of a good seaman as far as I'm concerned.

Unlike dinghy sailing, there's very little proscribed 'ways of doing things according to the RYA'. When I'm examining I looking for safety and seamanship (amongst many other things!). If something is obviously dangerous, or its done in a very unseamanlike manner, then the candidate isn't going to pass...

(I'm sometimes very disappointed to see people putting a fix on the chart that is obviously nonsense. A glance at the echo sounder would show them that they can't be where they think they are.)

 

[oldbilbo]

The intent was to tease out what others do and how they do it - like 'PRV'. And central to my sketch of anchor bearings on likely-to-be-conspicuous-in-the-dark objects is a Plan Of How To Get Out Of There In The Dark.

I did sail with one charming old fellow who recorded bearings, in the Helford River, of the boat anchored in front of us, and of one of the small trees near the water's edge. The latter was invisible in the dark, and the former was, too, having upped and left about an hour after the pub shut.

 

[charles_reed]

At every turn of tide or change of wind? If not, why bother the first time?

non-tidal waters, the Med.

Most anchors re-set with a change of pull, certainly CQR, Delta and Mantus do. Getting them dug in first is critical, IMHO and most other regular anchorers.

 

[noelex]

I used to religiously take transits when I anchored overnight, in order to establish whether I might be dragging later on, and where they weren't abundantly clear I would sometimes sketch them on a piece of scrap paper and clip it near the companionway. But nowadays I tend to just rely on the anchor watch feature of my AIS display

Yes, in days before GPS, or post GPS when SA was still in use, I always recorded a few bearings and kept a careful eye on transits. It has been many years since I have done this (apart from an occasional transit) and I am surprised anyone still bothers. Electronics does a far better job. A GPS can show if the anchor has dragged even if the wind direction changes and the boat has moved to the other side of the swing circle. GPS works just as reliably on a moonless night or in a thunderstorm when details on shore can be difficult to make out or lost completely.

I frequently write down laser distance measurements. Most often the distance of boats in front of me so I can tell if they are dragging, but occasionally measurements from shore especially if there is a hazard close to the stern.

Working out an escape bearing and writing it down if necessary is something I still occasionally do, but most anchorages I frequent are open enough that this is not required. It is always worth make a mental note of the location of any hazards within the anchorage that might have to be avoided.

 

[Babylon]

ahem !

This year's Dazed Kipper course. Exercises, Part B. Seamanship.

Q3 Once a boat has been anchored it is important for the skipper to check that the anchor is holding well and that the vessel is not dragging. Give 2 ways that this could be done.

And anchor bearings were covered in the coursework. Perhaps I was just lucky in the instructors ?

ANSWER:
(i) Take suitable transit(s) using compass or naked eye, and record these in waterproof ink on any available crew's forehead;
(ii) Whip out yer smartphone and quickly post to this forum - that'll fix you for eternity!

Actually, I remember when I first started anchoring overnight. Despite having dug the hook in half way to Australia, I remained suitably nervous about dragging, so took advantage of the anchor-drag alarm on the ship's old GPS. The process involved working out the maximum turning circle in meters at low water, then choosing from the GPS's available decimals of a nautical mile. Not a natural exercise when all I really wanted to do was sample a sizeable dram of Scotland's finest.

Nowadays I just sail to an uptide or upwind spot, dump a load of chain right over the top of the Manson (which is omnipotent), and fall back. For a transit, I normally get the compass-equipped bins out, try to find the biggest pair of whatsits on a neighbouring yacht and stare hard until they're properly fixed in my mind.

If its going to blow hard, I continue with Scotland's finest until I'm no longer troubled by the problem.

Finally, the most important reason for not setting the anchor too deep, is that you want to sail off it the next morning in full view of everyone eating their bacon butties. All credibility will sink like a stone if you fail in this and have to resort to the engine.

 

[noelex]

At every turn of tide or change of wind? If not, why bother the first time?

There is a common belief that anchors "break out" and need to "reset" if there is a significant change in direction of pull from a wind shift or current change.

Good anchors in reasonable substrates that have been set adequately don't do this. They remain buried and "shuffle" around to the new direction. They develop a list and loose some grip as they rotate so it is a time when the anchor is more vulnerable to dragging (some designs much more than others), but if set initially they will remain with most or all of the fluke buried and pivot around without otherwise moving.

It is also worth realising that light wind or moderate current does not provide much force and the anchor will often stay facing the same direction, if it is set well, even if the boat has moved to the other side of the swing circle.

 

[KellysEye]

NormanS's pictures remind me of snorkelling around Caribbean anchorages the number of them that were just lying on the the bottom and not set was awesome. The French were the worst one dragged down on us in the BVI's and another in Antigua so if they ever anchored in front we moved. The top worst one was in St Lucia where the boat passed close alongside and dropped the anchor directly in front of us and ended up about 7 metres from our bows and over our chain. I then started the engine and moved slowly forward until he got the message to move.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

It's years since I last saw anyone - other than myself - sketch 'anchor bearings' onto a notepad after successfully/satisfactorily embedding the anchor..... together with the Plan For Getting The Hell Out Of There in case of need, during a black night with horizontal rain and 40-knot fog. I do this 'cos I was shown the reason 'when ah were a lad' on my first JSASTC week-long course, way back before it was called that, and I buy into that quality of 'the ordinary practice of seamen'.

I don't recall, either, the practice ever being mentioned by any RYA Cruising/Yachtmaster Instructor - and I've met a few o' they. Perhaps, as we have a nearly-tame and widely-experienced RYA Examiner who pops in here from time to time, we might persuade him to outline 'the party line' on such practices.... for the benefit of all.

Whenever I sailed with an Irish Sailing Association (ISA) Cruising Instructor, I was always taught to take transits on coming to rest after anchoring, with the proviso that "you should not use a cow as one of your landmarks". The transits should be taken with regard to the direction of the prevailing and forecast wind.
Us ISA Keelboat Instructors follow the same practice, it's on the syllabus.
Us ISA