Kurrawong_Kid
Well-Known Member
+1
Declining numbers of Sailors
- Thread starter ctelfer38
- Start date
+1
Saguday
Well-Known Member
Nothing to do with average house prices being nearly 10x average salaries then? This basic affordability issue doesn't have anything to do with young people in their 20's and 30's not buying houses, it's because they have iPhones for £25 a month? Seriously?
Yellow Ballad
Well-Known Member
I want to have a rant how hard it is for youngsters (plus my generation having to borrow 7 times their wage to buy a house whilst tring to bring up a family and look after their parents with both halves having to work full time to make ends meet) but I feel it will fall on deaf ears. I had written a long piece on why I've given up on buying a home and bought a boat instead so I can live the once short one shot at life, so we can enjoy our time on this earth but I deleted it because I'll be told I've had it cushy and wrapped in cotton wool or I've spent my money to feed the capialist society we live in.
It's my children and theirs I feel sorry for, at least I can buy a 40 year old boat at a price I can afford because the depreciation was swallowed by a generation that's be lavished in money from a 20 year plus house price boom.
I'm going to stick on my oillies and batten down the hatches..... see you on the other side.
It's my children and theirs I feel sorry for, at least I can buy a 40 year old boat at a price I can afford because the depreciation was swallowed by a generation that's be lavished in money from a 20 year plus house price boom.
I'm going to stick on my oillies and batten down the hatches..... see you on the other side.
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stranded
Well-Known Member
+1 Have you ever met one of the '...and it never did me any harm' brigade without thinking: 'Really?'
jdc
Well-Known Member
I'm not at all sure I really believe the article.
If I was to do a survey around seaside resorts of the UK, I rather imagine that I'd find how the numbers visiting are ceiling year-on-year, and those who still come are ageing. From that survey I, were I a DT reporter, heaven forfend, would conclude that fewer 'britons go on holiday than hitherto'. But of course the truth is that holiday time and spend is increasing over-all, just more is abroad due to increased wealth and due to easier air travel.
I imagine something of the same is happening to sailing. Charter, quite often in really exotic places which I could not possbly have afforded as a young man, is getting more and more popular, as is keeping one's boat abroad (see thses forums!). This may well distort a UK based survey.
If I was to do a survey around seaside resorts of the UK, I rather imagine that I'd find how the numbers visiting are ceiling year-on-year, and those who still come are ageing. From that survey I, were I a DT reporter, heaven forfend, would conclude that fewer 'britons go on holiday than hitherto'. But of course the truth is that holiday time and spend is increasing over-all, just more is abroad due to increased wealth and due to easier air travel.
I imagine something of the same is happening to sailing. Charter, quite often in really exotic places which I could not possbly have afforded as a young man, is getting more and more popular, as is keeping one's boat abroad (see thses forums!). This may well distort a UK based survey.
jdc
Well-Known Member
Sorry - don't know how that happened!
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macd
Well-Known Member
I took much the same position as laika in respect of another major national pastime on which so many seemed instinctively to view any shrinkage as inherently A Very Bad Thing. Such heresy! Reaction sometimes reached evangelical propertions in its intensity.
I suspect the phenomenon is universal, at least in part for the reason Kelpie suggests.
Seajet
...
I thought sailing was in decline as the Solent seemed quiet early in the season, but in the later half was as busy as I've ever seen it.
Our club continues to attract new members, cruiser & dinghy, and after a very worrying quiet time a few years ago when the once bustling dinghy fleet almost seemed dead, it's all go.
The reason for this is that theclub has been very pro-active; we saw the problem, admitted it was there and did something about it.
Open days to show anyone interested round the club inc trips on various boats, many more rallies and fun days with other neighbouring clubs who have also got their acts together, Sailability for the disabled on our fleets of specially adapted boats,these have been a tremendous success.
I think there are several factors which make this a remarkable boom time for us;
The club has very good facilities, but low fees as it's all self help, any work possible is done by members, there are no staff.
Dinghy sailing now offers many more family ' fun ' events such as camping rallies with a rescue boat carrying all the gear - rather than the ' racing or nothing ' of the past which I always thought offputting.
The Junior section is particularly thriving, thanks to dedicated people putting a lot of effort into fun days and racing training at various levels; we have fleets of Feva's and other dinghies available for any junior with the required skills to simply sign out and bring along under safety boat cover.
Cruising - we have many new members, boats from 17 - 40' +, while the age group is generally 50 +, we do have groups of youngsters who have clubbed together to buy pretty good yachts.
Welcoming; we have a sign on the door - as the place is not busy 24/7 - saying ' we're a friendly club, if you'd like a look around thinking about joining, here's the website and phone numbers ' - while in the past I might have even been suspicious of strangers wandering around, now if I see people like this I go up and chat.
So it's not all doom and gloom by any means, but clubs certainly do have to put a lot more in than simply think the world will come to them - and the great thing is, the club is much more fun now for long standing members too.
Our club continues to attract new members, cruiser & dinghy, and after a very worrying quiet time a few years ago when the once bustling dinghy fleet almost seemed dead, it's all go.
The reason for this is that theclub has been very pro-active; we saw the problem, admitted it was there and did something about it.
Open days to show anyone interested round the club inc trips on various boats, many more rallies and fun days with other neighbouring clubs who have also got their acts together, Sailability for the disabled on our fleets of specially adapted boats,these have been a tremendous success.
I think there are several factors which make this a remarkable boom time for us;
The club has very good facilities, but low fees as it's all self help, any work possible is done by members, there are no staff.
Dinghy sailing now offers many more family ' fun ' events such as camping rallies with a rescue boat carrying all the gear - rather than the ' racing or nothing ' of the past which I always thought offputting.
The Junior section is particularly thriving, thanks to dedicated people putting a lot of effort into fun days and racing training at various levels; we have fleets of Feva's and other dinghies available for any junior with the required skills to simply sign out and bring along under safety boat cover.
Cruising - we have many new members, boats from 17 - 40' +, while the age group is generally 50 +, we do have groups of youngsters who have clubbed together to buy pretty good yachts.
Welcoming; we have a sign on the door - as the place is not busy 24/7 - saying ' we're a friendly club, if you'd like a look around thinking about joining, here's the website and phone numbers ' - while in the past I might have even been suspicious of strangers wandering around, now if I see people like this I go up and chat.
So it's not all doom and gloom by any means, but clubs certainly do have to put a lot more in than simply think the world will come to them - and the great thing is, the club is much more fun now for long standing members too.
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Cantata
Well-Known Member
I was brought up in a seaside town with a thriving sailing club. My older brother was nuts about boats, he was a member, and I joined when I was 12 (this was back in the early 1960's) and never looked back, involved in dinghy racing as almost my sole pastime for the next 50 years.
That club is still thriving, with a lot of young members, but it's different, with a lot of formal training which we never had. In the early days, almost all the dinghy classes were two-man boats, and we all learnt by crewing and being bellowed at until we got it right.
Seems to me the Press in this country always reflects a class-conscious attitude towards sailing (which they always call yachting) which absolutely does not help, something you don't see e.g. In France. I'd love to get a national reporter down to my cruising club, where the members are ordinary people with clapped-out cars and who make financial sacrifices to keep sailing. It would never get written about, though, would it, "ordinary people go sailing" would not be 'News'.
When I first got a small 'yacht' a friend of mine occasionally made digs at me about rich barstewards until one day I got him to tell me how much he spent on foreign holidays, which was more than my sailing cost me each year.
As others have said, there's a lot more to do today, other distractions, instant gratification, less incentive to make the time to work at something.
That club is still thriving, with a lot of young members, but it's different, with a lot of formal training which we never had. In the early days, almost all the dinghy classes were two-man boats, and we all learnt by crewing and being bellowed at until we got it right.
Seems to me the Press in this country always reflects a class-conscious attitude towards sailing (which they always call yachting) which absolutely does not help, something you don't see e.g. In France. I'd love to get a national reporter down to my cruising club, where the members are ordinary people with clapped-out cars and who make financial sacrifices to keep sailing. It would never get written about, though, would it, "ordinary people go sailing" would not be 'News'.
When I first got a small 'yacht' a friend of mine occasionally made digs at me about rich barstewards until one day I got him to tell me how much he spent on foreign holidays, which was more than my sailing cost me each year.
As others have said, there's a lot more to do today, other distractions, instant gratification, less incentive to make the time to work at something.
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I used to fly from the Yorkshire Gliding Club at Sutton Bank. There is a public footpath on the cliff edge round the airfield, and on any vaguely nice (ie flyable) day there are plenty of walkers, many of whom are clearly interested by the gliders. Most pilots ignore them but I always made a point of going up to them, chatting, asking if they would like to see a glider and so on. I NEVER failed to sell a trial flight to at least one member of the group I was talking to, which was good for the club (in money and goodwill) and good for the sport (I hope - several said they would definitely join their local club as a result).
Far too many volunteer organisations are quite happy with decline, because it doesn't mean uncomfortable change, or new faces. They still grumble about lack of members, but at best they just want the money and at worst the grumble is a meaningless ritual. It sounds as if your club decided actually to do something about it, and showed what can be done. Congratulations!
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Glass half full...
After "n" years of avoiding them, on the grounds that they were bound to be "snotty", I was finally persuaded to join the local Rather Grand club when I saw that they were building a new Club House. That level of commitment "said something". I have found the club to be active at all levels, but whereas the waiting list for the Club's own marina was once "dead men's shoes" it is now down to three or four years.
I am saddened by the near death of the small wooden boat - the two and a half tonners and suchlike - which were the way that people like me "got started" in cruising. Few people want these boats now. The annual maintenance and the lack of privacy on board has just about done for them.
However, I don't think our pastime is dying. I think that it is going back to what it was when my father started sailing, in 1919 - a pastime (I am carefully avoiding calling it a "sport") pursued, with huge enthusiasm, by rather few people, for whom it becomes a life long passion, which they can never do enough of or know enough about.
I sold my last boat to a Keen Young Man just starting on owning a boat with a lid. They still exist.
We baby boomers- the Dinghy Sailing Generation - will drop out and the pastime will come back into balance looking more like it did before WW2.
And I think that's absolutely fine!
After "n" years of avoiding them, on the grounds that they were bound to be "snotty", I was finally persuaded to join the local Rather Grand club when I saw that they were building a new Club House. That level of commitment "said something". I have found the club to be active at all levels, but whereas the waiting list for the Club's own marina was once "dead men's shoes" it is now down to three or four years.
I am saddened by the near death of the small wooden boat - the two and a half tonners and suchlike - which were the way that people like me "got started" in cruising. Few people want these boats now. The annual maintenance and the lack of privacy on board has just about done for them.
However, I don't think our pastime is dying. I think that it is going back to what it was when my father started sailing, in 1919 - a pastime (I am carefully avoiding calling it a "sport") pursued, with huge enthusiasm, by rather few people, for whom it becomes a life long passion, which they can never do enough of or know enough about.
I sold my last boat to a Keen Young Man just starting on owning a boat with a lid. They still exist.
We baby boomers- the Dinghy Sailing Generation - will drop out and the pastime will come back into balance looking more like it did before WW2.
And I think that's absolutely fine!
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Seajet
...
All wooden boats will struggle nowadays, even classics - my mates and I adore looking at them but probably don't have the money, certainly not the time, to maintain one - whenever we see a lovely wooden boat we say " there's a wonderful boat - for someone else to own ! "
I began sailing when plywood cruisers were common, first boat I sailed was a Mystic, and chums had Yachting Monthly Seniors, Debutantes etc - all gone now, and the frankly folly of plywood seems unlikely to reappear.
We're very grateful to conventional wooden boat owners, and when I win the lotto I will help their coffers in some way.
This last season I was out on a chum's boat, it was his first season sailing though he's very experienced as a fisherman and lifeboat crew - when a Vertue appeared his eyes instantly lit up, ' now what is She ?! '
However as far as affordable access to small cruisers goes, those interested have never had it so good, with lots of very good boats to choose from.
Young sailors at my club have Hurley 20's, GK24's, some quite big Beneteau 31' ish job I haven't seen in the flesh yet, and so on.
A few retired chums at the club have several boats on the go inc wooden dayboats and various size grp keelboats & cruisers.
Other friends - quite new to sailing - have done without clubs and found relatively affordable moorings / marinas with boatyards for the winter - even here in Chichester it's easy, with a little research and asking around, to have a good boat and go sailing for less than golfing - which has to be the last resort !
I actually think the opposite is happening; yes a certain polarisation may happen, but more like the immediate post war situation of small affordable boats and big v expensive ones, not so much inbetween as that's the market hit by declining incomes in the middle class.
I began sailing when plywood cruisers were common, first boat I sailed was a Mystic, and chums had Yachting Monthly Seniors, Debutantes etc - all gone now, and the frankly folly of plywood seems unlikely to reappear.
We're very grateful to conventional wooden boat owners, and when I win the lotto I will help their coffers in some way.
This last season I was out on a chum's boat, it was his first season sailing though he's very experienced as a fisherman and lifeboat crew - when a Vertue appeared his eyes instantly lit up, ' now what is She ?! '
However as far as affordable access to small cruisers goes, those interested have never had it so good, with lots of very good boats to choose from.
Young sailors at my club have Hurley 20's, GK24's, some quite big Beneteau 31' ish job I haven't seen in the flesh yet, and so on.
A few retired chums at the club have several boats on the go inc wooden dayboats and various size grp keelboats & cruisers.
Other friends - quite new to sailing - have done without clubs and found relatively affordable moorings / marinas with boatyards for the winter - even here in Chichester it's easy, with a little research and asking around, to have a good boat and go sailing for less than golfing - which has to be the last resort !
I actually think the opposite is happening; yes a certain polarisation may happen, but more like the immediate post war situation of small affordable boats and big v expensive ones, not so much inbetween as that's the market hit by declining incomes in the middle class.
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[163233]
...
Aye and 32" flat screen tellies...
(Remember when that was the mark of excessive spending)
Motor Boat Man
Member
That is an interesting Article and some good comments on this thread.
I think one of of the main issues of Yachting like here in the Solent is the costs and time with people with family's etc, that is why you see so many Boats laid up in Marinas that never go out, also some people do not have the confidence to go out like I see on a few boats were I keep mine.
I did belong to a "Sailing Club", but I did feel you were getting committed to Club work and not having enjoyment on my own boat!, there was 40 pages of Rules and Regulations for just a Anchor Mooring that you needed a Tender to reach it.
Luckily, I found a small family owned Boatyard and Pontoons for my Boats and has a great Boating Community and most help each other out with their Boating needs.
I think one of of the main issues of Yachting like here in the Solent is the costs and time with people with family's etc, that is why you see so many Boats laid up in Marinas that never go out, also some people do not have the confidence to go out like I see on a few boats were I keep mine.
I did belong to a "Sailing Club", but I did feel you were getting committed to Club work and not having enjoyment on my own boat!, there was 40 pages of Rules and Regulations for just a Anchor Mooring that you needed a Tender to reach it.
Luckily, I found a small family owned Boatyard and Pontoons for my Boats and has a great Boating Community and most help each other out with their Boating needs.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
I think in the UK many outdoor activities for kids are in decline due as already said to HSE regs, schools scared of being sued, parents thinking there's a paedophile lurking behind every bush etc. Whereas we used to stick a rucksack with small tent on our backs and "thumb it" around the country in early teens, that wouldn't be acceptable now and I suspect a much smaller number of kids join the cubs, scouts etc. or go on cheap camping outdoor adventure holidays, compared to days past. This must reflect on attitudes as they grow up into adults.
Sailing France, Spain & Portugal where weather is kinder, we see far more kids enjoying outdoor activities and some quiet waters are littered with very young children in Optimists who seem to have more fun capsizing. Some take part in dinghy competitions when they get older but this declines when girlfriends/boyfriends become priorities. Many SW Spain marinas are now half empty/half full whereas a few years ago they were packed.
Sailing France, Spain & Portugal where weather is kinder, we see far more kids enjoying outdoor activities and some quiet waters are littered with very young children in Optimists who seem to have more fun capsizing. Some take part in dinghy competitions when they get older but this declines when girlfriends/boyfriends become priorities. Many SW Spain marinas are now half empty/half full whereas a few years ago they were packed.
Seajet
...
On my first sailing holidays let loose with a fellow ex-school chum on a cruiser aged 16-17, we used to go on a ' holiday shop ' before 3 weeks away, spend the huge amount of £50 - then wonder why we were always hungry.
A ' meal out ' was a mixed grill in Wimpys in Weymouth, and at the end of one holiday we were down to cornflakes & water as we re-entered the Solent.
I couldn't understand it when a girlfriend who'd been along on some adventures traded me in for a good looking rich bloke who seemed to do nothing but sit around, counting his money.
An elderly, rather well off relative has just been befriended by a younger lady; so far he has bought her teenage lads HUGE wall size TV's with Sky Sports etc, all I've heard of them doing is watch - not even play, and that's appaling enough - football...
I still think we were the ones who got it right, by pure luck of the times really.
Fortunately I know several families with youngsters as full of the spirit of ' Swallows and Amazons ' as ever; one little lad, beset with 3 young sisters on a rather small sailing cruiser for a family of 6, was very keen to hear how to deal with girl dinghy crews; throw seaweed into the main, so it drops on them - still ellicits the required squeals now as ever...
A ' meal out ' was a mixed grill in Wimpys in Weymouth, and at the end of one holiday we were down to cornflakes & water as we re-entered the Solent.
I couldn't understand it when a girlfriend who'd been along on some adventures traded me in for a good looking rich bloke who seemed to do nothing but sit around, counting his money.
An elderly, rather well off relative has just been befriended by a younger lady; so far he has bought her teenage lads HUGE wall size TV's with Sky Sports etc, all I've heard of them doing is watch - not even play, and that's appaling enough - football...
I still think we were the ones who got it right, by pure luck of the times really.
Fortunately I know several families with youngsters as full of the spirit of ' Swallows and Amazons ' as ever; one little lad, beset with 3 young sisters on a rather small sailing cruiser for a family of 6, was very keen to hear how to deal with girl dinghy crews; throw seaweed into the main, so it drops on them - still ellicits the required squeals now as ever...
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Seajet
...
Jumbleduck,
well one can never allow for people apparently doing / ' designing ' things for drunken bets with chums...
Being a Sea Harrier fan, I particularly like the glass ski ramp with raised forehatch at the bottom, this should give crew quite some upward and forward ballistic component to their trajectory - suppose if one's going to cause a MOB they might as well be easy to recover without a course deviation...
well one can never allow for people apparently doing / ' designing ' things for drunken bets with chums...
Being a Sea Harrier fan, I particularly like the glass ski ramp with raised forehatch at the bottom, this should give crew quite some upward and forward ballistic component to their trajectory - suppose if one's going to cause a MOB they might as well be easy to recover without a course deviation...
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Halo
Well-Known Member
Young people are different because they have grown up in a new world. They are far more confident than my generation.
Sad for them they are forced to stay in education for too long and most are encouraged to take on eye watering debts before they start earning a bean. They then expect to spend a year or two travelling the globe before joining the real world with no practical experience and no idea what they want to do when they "grow up ". They then get depressed because they have done what was expected of them and got nowhere.
My kids often thank me for being vey clear with them from age 14. From this point I told them every 6 months that I would support them until age 21 and after that they were paying rent or moving out. Consequently they have got careers and there own space, this is in sharp contrast to some of my friends who have mollycoddled their kids who have "failed to launch " and are still dependent in their 30s
The impact on sailing is that young people are getting solvent enough to buy a boat much later in life.
I don't think that boat ownership has ever been cheaper with so many older yachts on sale for a song. However as others have said people expect more these days so a trip in a mucky old tub is less attractive to young people than it was to me.
The real trend I have noticed is for bigger boats. Many of these seem too big for the established marinas which seem to have been built for 25 to 30 footers rather than the bigger boats which seem to predominate these days.
Sad for them they are forced to stay in education for too long and most are encouraged to take on eye watering debts before they start earning a bean. They then expect to spend a year or two travelling the globe before joining the real world with no practical experience and no idea what they want to do when they "grow up ". They then get depressed because they have done what was expected of them and got nowhere.
My kids often thank me for being vey clear with them from age 14. From this point I told them every 6 months that I would support them until age 21 and after that they were paying rent or moving out. Consequently they have got careers and there own space, this is in sharp contrast to some of my friends who have mollycoddled their kids who have "failed to launch " and are still dependent in their 30s
The impact on sailing is that young people are getting solvent enough to buy a boat much later in life.
I don't think that boat ownership has ever been cheaper with so many older yachts on sale for a song. However as others have said people expect more these days so a trip in a mucky old tub is less attractive to young people than it was to me.
The real trend I have noticed is for bigger boats. Many of these seem too big for the established marinas which seem to have been built for 25 to 30 footers rather than the bigger boats which seem to predominate these days.
Seajet
...
True,
for many years a lovely wooden canoe sterned yawl was by far the biggest boat in our club - she is a tiny 20' with probably less interior space than a Corribee.
I often look at couples struggling with 32-35 footers in marinas and think ' you're paying the price now for the showers and treble aft cabins, aren't you ? '.
When I finally got someone else to fund my YMO course in 1992, I was the only experienced boat owner aboard inc the instructors; one of my fellow students had just bought his first cruiser in a syndicate, a 37' job.
I genuinely feel sorry for people who haven't tried smaller cruisers, it's meant to be about sailing, not carting around furniture - I tried a larger boat, found the experience far less enjoyable, so got my old boat back.
for many years a lovely wooden canoe sterned yawl was by far the biggest boat in our club - she is a tiny 20' with probably less interior space than a Corribee.
I often look at couples struggling with 32-35 footers in marinas and think ' you're paying the price now for the showers and treble aft cabins, aren't you ? '.
When I finally got someone else to fund my YMO course in 1992, I was the only experienced boat owner aboard inc the instructors; one of my fellow students had just bought his first cruiser in a syndicate, a 37' job.
I genuinely feel sorry for people who haven't tried smaller cruisers, it's meant to be about sailing, not carting around furniture - I tried a larger boat, found the experience far less enjoyable, so got my old boat back.