Declining numbers of Sailors

The rivers I sail on in East Anglia swarm with dinghies, dayboats and pocket cruisers all season, the annual cruise to Dorset shows waters full of people afloat, young and old.
Marinas are stuffed full round these parts and marine businesses are mostly thriving. Along the south coast it seems the same. In decline? It doesn't look like it but then I sail in two of the three most popular areas of the UK, I've never sailed in the SW but I assume it's largely the same popularity wise?
 
From what I hear of the SW - I love it above all but for various reasons haven't been along beyond Poole for a few years - it's a growth area, though sadly it seems the ' Salcombe Effect ' of outsiders from London forcing out locals is in full swing- see various comments re Falmouth & Fowey mooring pricing.

A good chum knows someone who has lived in and sailed from Fowey all his life - always my favourite, relatively unspoilt harbour - the chap in question has been a lifelong resident but is now probably going to throw it in as he can't compete with the ' Chelsea On Sea ' set's money.

I have heard from several different sources that the shopkeepers have 2 sets of prices, and before a ' cruise ship ' comes in they whip on the higher £ tickets !

Good luck to them I say; I completely understand there are a lot of very good talented, skilled people in Cornwall ( and the Isle Of Wight ) going to waste, so any money into these places is great - but not at the expense of locals having to move out, youngsters finding house prices impossible.

I used to think the Channel Islands set-up of 2 different prices for houses, ' locals and others ' was snobby; now I realise they were farsighted.
 
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MoodySabre said:
If there aren't enough boats to fill them then revenues can only be increased by putting up prices.
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If people aren't buying the sweets in my sweet shop then hiking the price of Mars bars won't fix it. If they've never tasted a Mars bar because of the fabulous price then they might not even think they want it. They need to experience the joy of Mars bars in the first place, then you can gouge them on the king-size.

Really they need a different pricing structure that best gouges those who have gouging space whilst making it possible for those who don't to get sucked in. With the per metre pricing a young couple in a 25 footer (probably the smallest practical cruiser) at 8 metres will be paying only 20% less than a 32 footer (average cruiser) at 10 metres yet the difference in the amount of money the owners have to spend is not 20%. Then it maxes out, there are few boats over about 45' (14 metres) as they start to require more than two people to handle. Yet the 45'er is still only paying 75% more than the 25'er when that cost will represent a much smaller fraction of their disposable income.

I know those of you with big boats won't like the idea, but there's no point trying to squeeze more cash out of me.

(Just noticed the other thread where this has already been said, ignore me and blather onward over on that one.)
 
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Just a point; 22' cruisers like mine have crossed the Atlantic - racing - 3 times that I know of, a family of 6 seems to be doing just fine on one at the moment, and I've cruised mine with 4 adults over weekends, 3 adults for 3 weeks - the holiday time gave up before we did.

A chum has a 1960's designed 24', I have been very impressed; she almost has the accomodation of a Centaur.

Neither of the boats I'm thinking of are remotely in the ' floating caravan ' category.

Then again boats like the Achilles 24 and Folkboat, though great sailing designs, might have one thinking it requires at least 30' to be sociable ! :rolleyes:
 
JBJag27 said:
... when that cost will represent a much smaller fraction of their disposable income.
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I don't believe this is supported by facts, it's simply an assertion. See my post above. You're also assuming that marinas charge the same per foot no matter the length, which is also not supported by any evidence.

What I would say is that marinas in the UK charge far too much to *everybody* in comparison to both European and North American equivalents - less than half the price for our 38footer in Roscoff 80 miles away compared to south Devon where we are currently.

I would suggest that one reason for the seeming decline in activity in the UK is that so many people have simply moved their boats to French, Belgian and Spanish marinas. It would be nice to see a studiy into this by the UK marine industries federation...
 
Saguday,

good point; I know several owners of larger boats who have done this - as long as one doesn't want a handy weekend boat for the Solent, it's quite an attractive idea.
 
Saguday said:
I don't believe this is supported by facts, it's simply an assertion. See my post above. You're also assuming that marinas charge the same per foot no matter the length, which is also not supported by any evidence.

What I would say is that marinas in the UK charge far too much to *everybody* in comparison to both European and North American equivalents - less than half the price for our 38footer in Roscoff 80 miles away compared to south Devon where we are currently.

I would suggest that one reason for the seeming decline in activity in the UK is that so many people have simply moved their boats to French, Belgian and Spanish marinas. It would be nice to see a studiy into this by the UK marine industries federation...
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I think I was trying to say they need some form of "goldilocks pricing" where effectively people who have the money will spend more rather than explicitly suggesting a formula. There are some very large grungy boats where charging by size wouldn't reflect the capacity of the owner to pay.

I agree prices are too high, my main point was that by hiking prices to cover costs they might well kill their business by stopping new owners from even considering it.
 
The UK is just a rip-off. Marinas, houses, boats - everything is overpriced. Us Brits just get into line and pay our money without fuss.

If we all got together and told the likes of MDL, Premier etc that we're not going to pay your overpriced marina fees, then there would an almighty scramble to lower marina prices.

I see a campaign coming on....
 
Bring back rickets, at'll tech em, the scallywags.
 
thecommander said:
The UK is just a rip-off. Marinas, houses, boats - everything is overpriced. Us Brits just get into line and pay our money without fuss.
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Nothing is overpriced if people are willing to pay the prices charged. To me, house prices in London are insane, but if studio flats in scruffy areas are snapped up at half a million within days of going on the market, the price is clearly right.
 
Seajet said:
Just a point; 22' cruisers like mine have crossed the Atlantic - racing - 3 times that I know of, a family of 6 seems to be doing just fine on one at the moment, and I've cruised mine with 4 adults over weekends, 3 adults for 3 weeks - the holiday time gave up before we did.
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Well, those are all in the 25' ballpark. I've sailed a Catalina 22 and it's a great sailing boat, and nominally cruisable but the accommodation really wouldn't work well for two for more than one or two nights. The bulk of the bathroom facilities were afforded by an ensemble of buckets for instance. You must be very close with your friends, for so many to perform your ablutions in such a small space. Although there is very little that can't be achieved with another bucket.

Seajet said:
A chum has a 1960's designed 24', I have been very impressed; she almost has the accomodation of a Centaur.
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She's almost the size of a Centaur they're only 26'.

Seajet said:
Then again boats like the Achilles 24 and Folkboat, though great sailing designs, might have one thinking it requires at least 30' to be sociable ! :rolleyes:
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I was actually suggesting 32' was "average" as in most boats in marinas are about that size rather than "required for sociability".
Indeed you could argue that with four adults 22' enforces sociability. :D
 
Our yachting press could do with adopting a more robust regime of hard investigative journalism on what drives trends in recreational sailing. Lots of comments on here which touch on factors more complex and wide ranging than the price of a berth are more instructive than any of the 'articles' in the print magazines. CBT
 
Saguday said:
You're also assuming that marinas charge the same per foot no matter the length, which is also not supported by any evidence.
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Really? Until you start getting into superyacht territory, all the UK marina pricing I've ever seen has been a fixed rate per metre. Except one where the fixed price was per foot (metric martyr? :) ) and one where the berths were divided into categories each with a fixed price, but the main difference between them was the length so it worked out to more or less the same thing.

No doubt there are some other exceptions, but they are exceptions. Price per metre per year is absolutely the norm.

Pete
 
prv said:
Really? Until you start getting into superyacht territory, all the UK marina pricing I've ever seen has been a fixed rate per metre. Except one where the fixed price was per foot (metric martyr? :) ) and one where the berths were divided into categories each with a fixed price, but the main difference between them was the length so it worked out to more or less the same thing.

No doubt there are some other exceptions, but they are exceptions. Price per metre per year is absolutely the norm.

Pete
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Swanwick have different prices per metre based on LOA. See here: file:///C:/Users/phill/Downloads/Swanwick%20Berthing%20Price%20List.pdf
 
JBJag27 said:
Well, those are all in the 25' ballpark. I've sailed a Catalina 22 and it's a great sailing boat, and nominally cruisable but the accommodation really wouldn't work well for two for more than one or two nights. The bulk of the bathroom facilities were afforded by an ensemble of buckets for instance. You must be very close with your friends, for so many to perform your ablutions in such a small space. Although there is very little that can't be achieved with another bucket.


She's almost the size of a Centaur they're only 26'.


I was actually suggesting 32' was "average" as in most boats in marinas are about that size rather than "required for sociability".
Indeed you could argue that with four adults 22' enforces sociability. :D
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If the only boat around 22' you've sailed is a Catalina / Jaguar 22 - a rather lightly built open plan design majoring on big hatchways for the hot American climate, best not judge all others until you've seen more to allow informed comment...

My boat has a separate loo, a separate forecabin and washbasin as well as the galley sink, beside the fully gimballed & pan clamped cooker with grill, ta; for longer trips yes people have to be a little sociable but no more than on the 30' boat I had ( which actually had much smaller bunks ) where I found I was carrying around loads of furniture, when the general idea had been to go sailing.

With modern marinas, clubs, quays, and even pubs offering showers along with breakfasts etc, there is no need to rough it nowadays.
 
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On the big boat bad, small boat good tack, I think that it's very much horses for courses. I have two boats at the moment: a Bavaria 38 and a Hurley 18.

We lived on board the Bavaria for six years (and will probably move back on board in the future) and consider that she represents (for us) the ideal as regards the compromise between size and affordability. At a fraction under 12 metres, she sneaks in under the cut off for many marina berths where there is a significant jump in pricing above 12 m. Any smaller and I suspect that murder might have occurred at some point: any larger and we'd have been caught in the pricing trap, especially in the Med. She has all the facilities on board we need for comfortable living away from marinas, which we cannot afford during the summer season.
The Hurley 18 cost £400, is tiny and bears no comparison to the Bavaria in any shape or form. It's tiny, has no life support on board beyond a camping stove and a bucket: you couldn't really stay on board her for much more than 24 hours without going ashore unless you really like baked beans and sausages. But she's great fun, costs a pittance to keep on a club mooring during the summer and a half tide berth in the winter.
Now, the Hurley is great for me to have fun with. It's also great for the grandkids to learn the basics of sailing, because kids can do much of the boat handling themselves with me standing in the companionway directing things. It's brilliant for SWMBO and I to escape in for day sailing. I'm happy to singlehand her for longer trips but they're going to have to be by way of places where life support is available rather than dropping the hook somewhere. As to the idea of a boat like her being attractive to the majority of the younger generation as anything beyond a taster, forget it.
I'm based in Falmouth and there's no shortage of sailing and sailors down here. This year, the moorings are still half occupied with boats making the most of the mild weather. Our club dinghy races are still drawing good entries at the weekends and whenever the weather is halfway to reasonable, the Fal is crowded with boats large and small. And it's not all incomers doing the sailing by a very long chalk.
 
prv said:
Really? Until you start getting into superyacht territory, all the UK marina pricing I've ever seen has been a fixed rate per metre.
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Most of the ones I go to have per metre pricing, but in bands.

Kip, for example, charges £310 per metre up to 8.5m, then £415 per metre. Largs charges £1,313 flat rate for <6m, then £336/m for 6.1 - 7m, then £417/m from 7.1 - 12.1m, then £425/m for >12.2m.
 
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