Death knell of Sea Schools?

[FlyingGoose]

One does, when the topic is about Sea Schools.
Ah, I forgot, you haven't been on one, so have no idea what they entail.

No need, RYA dinghy Instructor , born on A navel Base ,Father and Brother worked in the fishing boats , been round boats all my life , spliced when I was 10 , dad dead bless him, but Brother a Marine Architect and other Brother A Master ROV pilot. Father in Law was a Skipper on some nice large wooden sailing yacht's and surveyor , looked after his brothers boat in the Caribbean, a Movie Producer , (produced the Sting , Ice station Zebra , great movies I recommend you watch them )
As you see some people can learn out with schools and if you read my post very clearly I did state that they are a good fit for some rather than others ,
Why do you not read properly , slow down , deep breathing and re read twice ,think before tapping away you will get better responses and mayby some one will like your posts
I tell you what I will give you a like so you do not feel left out

 

[laika]

who defines a good skipper , what is a good skipper , were does one learn to be a good skipper ,
The only way to learn is to go forth and do.

A "Good Skipper" has a whole bunch of skills many of which are not strictly "sailing" or "boat handling" skills. Passage planning, navigation, meteorology, rules and regulation, stores management, risk assessment, safety, firefighting, first aid, radio operation, engineering electronics and boat maintenance skills, sailmaking, whipping and splicing...the list goes on but most especially people management. A few of those are covered in dayskipper, more are covered variously in ocean yachtmaster, MCA and STCW courses. Some you have no alternative to learn by yourself.

Yes there are people out there who have never done a sailing course and know more about skippering a boat than I ever will. However for those who aren't blessed with enormous self confidence that "she'll be right"...how are you supposed to know what the most important things are to start out with? What you absolutely need to know before you take responsibility for another person's safety on the water? There is *so much* stuff to know. Learn from a relative or a mate? Anyone who got taught to drive by a parent whose knowledge of the highway code was scant at best when they learned to drive decades earlier will know that's hit and miss. Then you have the false confidence that someone you *think* knows it all has imparted what you need to know. No matter what your family or friends' occupation unless it's "Yachtmaster instructor" or similar and no matter how much you respect them....how do you tell folksy wisdom from current best practice?

That's the value of courses. A bunch of immensely experienced skippers who aren't your relative or mate but have spent years in the training business work out what the most important things are, continually revise that based on feedback, and provide a test to check you've understood those points. The course is published and open to criticism. It's providing a starting point and a base level. Yes for the theory you can buy a book, but that presupposes people have already thought out the course to write the book and you have some mechanism to check your understanding. For the practical...again, you can buy the syllabus (which is already acknowledging the value of the course) and practice on your own boat but who is going to point out those really stupid things you did while successfully mooring to a buoy, like not noticing the crewperson who's hand was resting on the mainsheet traveller, or the fact that it's high summer and 30 degrees and you haven't checked that everyone's had a glug of water for 3 hours?

Training schemes can never be perfect. IMHO the RYA schemes don't sufficiently emphasise people management even at the highest levels but I accept that that may well be a practical and honest acknowledgement of the skillsets of those who typically become instructors, ie they're excellent sailors but don't necessarily have degrees in psychology or business management. Yes you can have the full set of STCW courses and there's still a universe of other things to learn. Yes people who are "not lacking in self confidence" will not see why they have to do courses and not know the *really important* sh1t that others think they *should* know before heading out on the water.

RYA training may not be perfect but, as one who eschews jingoism but reads international sailing forums, it's the undisputed best of its kind in the world and I really hope as many of the schools come through this intact as possible.

 

[FlyingGoose]

A "Good Skipper" has a whole bunch of skills many of which are not strictly "sailing" or "boat handling" skills. Passage planning, navigation, meteorology, rules and regulation, stores management, risk assessment, safety, firefighting, first aid, radio operation, engineering electronics and boat maintenance skills, sailmaking, whipping and splicing...the list goes on but most especially people management. A few of those are covered in dayskipper, more are covered variously in ocean yachtmaster, MCA and STCW courses. Some you have no alternative to learn by yourself.

Yes there are people out there who have never done a sailing course and know more about skippering a boat than I ever will. However for those who aren't blessed with enormous self confidence that "she'll be right"...how are you supposed to know what the most important things are to start out with? What you absolutely need to know before you take responsibility for another person's safety on the water? There is *so much* stuff to know. Learn from a relative or a mate? Anyone who got taught to drive by a parent whose knowledge of the highway code was scant at best when they learned to drive decades earlier will know that's hit and miss. Then you have the false confidence that someone you *think* knows it all has imparted what you need to know. No matter what your family or friends' occupation unless it's "Yachtmaster instructor" or similar and no matter how much you respect them....how do you tell folksy wisdom from current best practice?

That's the value of courses. A bunch of immensely experienced skippers who aren't your relative or mate but have spent years in the training business work out what the most important things are, continually revise that based on feedback, and provide a test to check you've understood those points. The course is published and open to criticism. It's providing a starting point and a base level. Yes for the theory you can buy a book, but that presupposes people have already thought out the course to write the book and you have some mechanism to check your understanding. For the practical...again, you can buy the syllabus (which is already acknowledging the value of the course) and practice on your own boat but who is going to point out those really stupid things you did while successfully mooring to a buoy, like not noticing the crewperson who's hand was resting on the mainsheet traveller, or the fact that it's high summer and 30 degrees and you haven't checked that everyone's had a glug of water for 3 hours?

Training schemes can never be perfect. IMHO the RYA schemes don't sufficiently emphasise people management even at the highest levels but I accept that that may well be a practical and honest acknowledgement of the skillsets of those who typically become instructors, ie they're excellent sailors but don't necessarily have degrees in psychology or business management. Yes you can have the full set of STCW courses and there's still a universe of other things to learn. Yes people who are "not lacking in self confidence" will not see why they have to do courses and not know the *really important* sh1t that others think they *should* know before heading out on the water.

RYA training may not be perfect but, as one who eschews jingoism but reads international sailing forums, it's the undisputed best of its kind in the world and I really hope as many of the schools come through this intact as possible.

Nice post ,
Just to add when taking my boat out for the first few days I hired a YM instructor to help and watch me with the new boat, knowledge is king , I'm an aspie ,I'm like a sponge with anything, although does not mean I put that into practice well , as my mother always said your cack handed

 

[newtothis]

Then you have the false confidence that someone you *think* knows it all has imparted what you need to know. No matter what your family or friends' occupation unless it's "Yachtmaster instructor" or similar and no matter how much you respect them....how do you tell folksy wisdom from current best practice?


RYA training may not be perfect but, as one who eschews jingoism but reads international sailing forums, it's the undisputed best of its kind in the world and I really hope as many of the schools come through this intact as possible.

Completely agree... the further I went up through the RYA ladder, the more I realised how little I knew. Learning on the job can give a false sense of competence. Learning from someone with more sea miles than I'll ever get was a real insight in what I should aspire to. I'm quite capable of heading south and hitting France, but I still know I can learn how to do it better.

 

[LittleSister]

I don't think anyone has yet noted that there will be an element of 'pent-up demand' for courses and the like once restrictions are lifted.

This may well be significantly less than the amount of business foregone during the lockdown, but I imagine that those sailing schools that are able to hang on in there will likely be rather busy once things start moving again.

 

[philmarks]

I don't think anyone has yet noted that there will be an element of 'pent-up demand' for courses and the like once restrictions are lifted.

This may well be significantly less than the amount of business foregone during the lockdown, but I imagine that those sailing schools that are able to hang on in there will likely be rather busy once things start moving again.

Agreed. Sailing - esp. cruising - is a good way of getting away from people. I can see that there will be pent up demand by the time that this is all over.

 

[Sharky34]

No need, RYA dinghy Instructor , born on A navel Base ,Father and Brother worked in the fishing boats , been round boats all my life , spliced when I was 10 , dad dead bless him, but Brother a Marine Architect and other Brother A Master ROV pilot. Father in Law was a Skipper on some nice large wooden sailing yacht's and surveyor , looked after his brothers boat in the Caribbean, a Movie Producer , (produced the Sting , Ice station Zebra , great movies I recommend you watch them )
As you see some people can learn out with schools and if you read my post very clearly I did state that they are a good fit for some rather than others ,
Why do you not read properly , slow down , deep breathing and re read twice ,think before tapping away you will get better responses and mayby some one will like your posts
I tell you what I will give you a like so you do not feel left out

I don't doubt people can learn "out with" schools, but the topic IS about schools, not about how you got into sailing.

 

[Sharky34]

Nice post ,
Just to add when taking my boat out for the first few days I hired a YM instructor to help and watch me with the new boat, knowledge is king , I'm an aspie ,I'm like a sponge with anything, although does not mean I put that into practice well , as my mother always said your cack handed

You sure you've spelled that correctly?

 

[Sharky34]

Completely agree... the further I went up through the RYA ladder, the more I realised how little I knew. Learning on the job can give a false sense of competence. Learning from someone with more sea miles than I'll ever get was a real insight in what I should aspire to. I'm quite capable of heading south and hitting France, but I still know I can learn how to do it better.

Still learning, is the essence of any sailing, regardless of experience.

 

[FlyingGoose]

I don't doubt people can learn "out with" schools, but the topic IS about schools, not about how you got into sailing.

Schools also have instructors doing personnel training in which I did mention
Did not know you were the thread police . I better mind my Ps and Qs then

 

[awol]

Training, experience, competence? As I understand it before you can get a piece of paper from the RYA that actually mentions "competence" you have to be able to demonstrate "experience" and "competence" to an independent assessor. Absolutely no need for "training" or sailing schools if you don't want to but the RYA may be hard pushed to provide assessors without them.

 

[capnsensible]

Schools also have instructors doing personnel training in which I did mention

Yah. Talented, witty and charming with character and grace in adversity. Fearless and wise. Hoo Hah.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Yah. Talented, witty and charming with character and grace in adversity. Fearless and wise. Hoo Hah.

Thankyou for my Description I never knew you cared so much

 

[Vicarage]

Completely agree... the further I went up through the RYA ladder, the more I realised how little I knew. Learning on the job can give a false sense of competence. Learning from someone with more sea miles than I'll ever get was a real insight in what I should aspire to. I'm quite capable of heading south and hitting France, but I still know I can learn how to do it better.

This +1
The only time I've ever felt like crying and going home during a sea job was during my Yachtmaster Instructor course when it felt like I suddenly realised I knew nothing!

 

[gilesashton]

I've just spent the past two weeks (on and off) working through my RYA Day Skipper theory course with a local company (Splash Sea School) that offer the course completely online. Fantastic way to learn - especially during these troubling times. I've come away with my RYA Day Skipper Theory Qualification but now desperate to get the practical booked. It sounds like it could be some time before that happens which would be a great shame.

 

[JumbleDuck]

For the foreseeable future, yes, be bloody stupid not to be.
Do you want to die earlier than necessary, because that's the likelyhood otherwise.

Best estimates of COVD-19 mortality are around 0.6%, overwhelmingly biassed to the very old and the terminally ill.

 

[Sharky34]

Best estimates of COVD-19 mortality are around 0.6%, overwhelmingly biassed to the very old and the terminally ill.

So, what exactly does that mean?
In UK, 177,000 confirmed with virus, almost 28,000 deaths so far, thats about 16%, which = 10,000,000 if the whole population get it.

 

[Poignard]

I don't think anyone has yet noted that there will be an element of 'pent-up demand' for courses and the like once restrictions are lifted.

This may well be significantly less than the amount of business foregone during the lockdown, but I imagine that those sailing schools that are able to hang on in there will likely be rather busy once things start moving again.

'

I hope you're right. For everyone's sake. But a lot of people will have taken a very severe financial hit and may find it hard to justify spending on luxuries like sailing courses.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Have you bothered to check death rates, what's happening to young children, the prevelance of massive strokes happening to young people, etc.

"Prevalence of massive strokes" = "Report of five cases in New York"

 

[JumbleDuck]

So, what exactly does that mean?

If you don't know you would be well advised to find out. Ignorance is only a little better than stupidity.