Death by Carbon Monoxide

[oldbilbo]

It kills us .....yotties just like us, and our children, too.

I was certainly one of those 'close calls' last spring. Had it not been for a simple little CO alarm box left on board by a sailing friend, a forumeer, I would certainly have figured in the list of fatalities.

Is it timely for a pleathat we all give thought to having a cheap CO alarm device on board, sooner rather than later? I know they cost just a couple of quid, via Aldi/Lidl, and can even be had free from some local Fire and Rescue Services....

Buy one at SIBS?

I say again all after 'It kills....'

“Quite early in the season I was reading late at night, aboard, and anchored. It was remarkably cold outside, the Taylors paraffin cabin heater was on full blast, and I was reducing the prior season's stock of single malt and water.

Right opposite me on the other side of the cabin was a bookshelf. I noticed a small white plastic box propped up on the books. Numbers displayed on its LED screen seemed to be increasing. Dimly I wondered what the box was for....

Sleepy, and about to pull the sleeping bag over my head, I remembered I needed a pee, so eventually heaved myself to my feet and clambered onto the deck. While clinging to the shrouds and lowers, admiring the stars, I was struck by how clean and fresh was the air I was now breathing, compared with that down below. Eventually the penny dropped!

It took just a few moments to open the hatches, go below, and turn off the Taylors heater, which was pumping out Carbon Monoxide as a consequence of an unusually bright yellow flame. The damn thing was trying to kill me! Insidious or what?

It was, I think, a lucky escape."

clicky ladycampanula

The MAIB have again issued a video-warning, a 'heads up' for us.... and every year there's another crop of regrettable, avoidable 'CO Post Mortems'.

clicky MAIB-two-people-dead-motor-cruiser-wroxham-norfolk-22986

 

[VicS]

If buying an electronic CO detector and alarm be aware that ordinary domestic units may not be suitable for use in situations where they are subject to movement and vibration.

Be sure to get one which complies with the standard for use in motor caravans and boats etc.

 

[elton]

I'm very conscious of the dangers of CO from my dad's career with the fire service, but I've seen some frighteningly dangerous advice given, sadly even on this forum. In particular, the failure to differentiate between CO which is deadly, and CO2, which is essential to plant life, and in natural concentration is perfectly harmless. I've also seen someone writing that CO poisoning can be quickly remedied with a good breath of fresh air To be perfectly clear, Carbon monoxide is also known as CO, and CO exposure will often result in permanent brain damage. The consequences of CO induced brain damage can be totally debilitating, or it can be very subtle, and at the same time quite debilitating. The ultimate consequence of continued CO exposure is death.

 

[alant]

I'm very conscious of the dangers of CO from my dad's career with the fire service, but I've seen some frighteningly dangerous advice given, sadly even on this forum. In particular, the failure to differentiate between CO which is deadly, and CO2, which is essential to plant life, and in natural concentration is perfectly harmless. I've also seen someone writing that CO poisoning can be quickly remedied with a good breath of fresh air To be perfectly clear, Carbon monoxide is also known as CO, and CO exposure will often result in permanent brain damage. The consequences of CO induced brain damage can be totally debilitating, or it can be very subtle, and at the same time quite debilitating. The ultimate consequence of continued CO exposure is death.

CO2 kills as well, but not by replacing oxygen in your blood to form a carboxylhaemaglobin, which is what CO does.

 

[[3889]]

I'm very conscious of the dangers of CO from my dad's career with the fire service, but I've seen some frighteningly dangerous advice given, sadly even on this forum. In particular, the failure to differentiate between CO which is deadly, and CO2, which is essential to plant life, and in natural concentration is perfectly harmless. I've also seen someone writing that CO poisoning can be quickly remedied with a good breath of fresh air To be perfectly clear, Carbon monoxide is also known as CO, and CO exposure will often result in permanent brain damage. The consequences of CO induced brain damage can be totally debilitating, or it can be very subtle, and at the same time quite debilitating. The ultimate consequence of continued CO exposure is death.

You're quite right in saying CO poisoning cannot be reversed by breathing fresh air. CO has a greater affinity for haemoglobin than O2 so once red blood cells are combined with CO they become redundant. Purging CO from the blood is only achieved over several days as cells are replaced.
Whilst CO2 is toxic at sufficient levels, it is less deadly than CO as even a sleeping casualty will wake up gasping with high CO2, whereas CO does not have this effect.

 

[pvb]

It kills us .....yotties just like us, and our children, too.

I was certainly one of those 'close calls' last spring. Had it not been for a simple little CO alarm box left on board by a sailing friend, a forumeer, I would certainly have figured in the list of fatalities.

Certainly CO is dangerous, but surely the correct procedure is to ensure that heat sources onboard are safe, rather than relying on a CO alarm? You mention a paraffin stove being used, these things are inherently dangerous. I'd never have any sort of open flame heater on a boat.

 

[Nicholas123]

It kills us .....yotties just like us, and our children, too.

I was certainly one of those 'close calls' last spring. Had it not been for a simple little CO alarm box left on board by a sailing friend, a forumeer, I would certainly have figured in the list of fatalities.

Is it timely for a pleathat we all give thought to having a cheap CO alarm device on board, sooner rather than later? I know they cost just a couple of quid, via Aldi/Lidl, and can even be had free from some local Fire and Rescue Services....

Buy one at SIBS?

I say again all after 'It kills....'



The MAIB have again issued a video-warning, a 'heads up' for us.... and every year there's another crop of regrettable, avoidable 'CO Post Mortems'.

clicky MAIB-two-people-dead-motor-cruiser-wroxham-norfolk-22986

No good trying to blame the yellow flame when you were too plastered to recognise it.With a little bit of care these things are perfectly safe.Clearly your setup has too little ventilation or you don't service the burner regularly.

 

[prv]

Certainly CO is dangerous, but surely the correct procedure is to ensure that heat sources onboard are safe, rather than relying on a CO alarm?

Can we not have both, just in case?

Obviously the correct procedure is to avoid setting fire to your house, so there's no need for buildings insurance nor the Fire Brigade.

Clearly your setup has too little ventilation or you don't service the burner regularly.

And obviously death is an appropriate and proportionate punishment for that little maintenance failing.

Pete

 

[elton]

Certainly CO is dangerous, but surely the correct procedure is to ensure that heat sources onboard are safe, rather than relying on a CO alarm? You mention a paraffin stove being used, these things are inherently dangerous. I'd never have any sort of open flame heater on a boat.

Yes the first thing to do is to make sure the equipment is safe. But it can fail at any time, and the CO alarm is insurance. I've got three smoke alarms and two CO alarms in my house. Some might think that's crazy, but if they'd seen the things I've seen, they'd fit them as well. The first thing I did when I bought this boat was to fit a CO and a smoke alarm.

 

[sarabande]

I cannot imagine for the tiniest tiniest moment that the OP would "rely" on an alarm, rather than use a device or system which was not working perfectly well at the time of starting. Having seen the debris of the burner afterwards, it is clear that the device failed in use, and that is the purpose of an alarm - to give warning of a significant departure from the normal operating envelope.

We are all aware of the danger of open flames on board , but greater heating risks are managed in houses and caravans, and it is only by scrupulous maintenance that one can run cooking and heating devices which operate on petrol, paraffin, diesel or alcohol. Mitigating risk is also about design, so your advice against any open flame device on board includes matches, decorative or space-heating candles, and means that you must have a boat with a microwave (not available to those of us unable to afford mains power), or a fiendishly expensive diesel heater/cooker such as the Wallas, exhausting directly to the outside of the boat.

And yet, thousands if not hundreds of thousands of owners successfully run heating and cooking from open flames without disaster. A prescriptive ban on open flames would require considerable extra costs for sensible people who are committed to the careful and safe use of hydrocarbon fuels in many forms.

Smoke, heat, CO, CO₂, gas alarms and detectors are indeed important, but relying on them as a preventive measure is not.

 

[Nicholas123]

Can we not have both, just in case?

Obviously the correct procedure is to avoid setting fire to your house, so there's no need for buildings insurance nor the Fire Brigade.



And obviously death is an appropriate and proportionate punishment for that little maintenance failing.

Pete

Sounds to me like it is just fortunate that ob did'nt fall overboard,dos'nt he have a frigging loo fitted?

 

[Nicholas123]

I cannot imagine for the tiniest tiniest moment that the OP would "rely" on an alarm, rather than use a device or system which was not working perfectly well at the time of starting. Having seen the debris of the burner afterwards, it is clear that the device failed in use, and that is the purpose of an alarm - to give warning of a significant departure from the normal operating envelope.

We are all aware of the danger of open flames on board , but greater heating risks are managed in houses and caravans, and it is only by scrupulous maintenance that one can run cooking and heating devices which operate on petrol, paraffin, diesel or alcohol. Mitigating risk is also about design, so your advice against any open flame device on board includes matches, decorative or space-heating candles, and means that you must have a boat with a microwave (not available to those of us unable to afford mains power), or a fiendishly expensive diesel heater/cooker such as the Wallas, exhausting directly to the outside of the boat.

And yet, thousands if not hundreds of thousands of owners successfully run heating and cooking from open flames without disaster. A prescriptive ban on open flames would require considerable extra costs for sensible people who are committed to the careful and safe use of hydrocarbon fuels in many forms.

Smoke, heat, CO, CO₂, gas alarms and detectors are indeed important, but relying on them as a preventive measure is not.

I'm not familiar with Taylors parafin heaters but gas heaters don't just suddenly breakdown in that way.I'd want to know if the burner was serviced properly before use or another reason for the burner producing a yellow flame could be insufficient oxygen or ventilation.Was the ventilation calculated properly in the first place?

PS the burner would clog up & produce soot if the ventilation was inadequate.

 

[oldbilbo]

Sounds to me like it is just fortunate that ob did'nt fall overboard,dos'nt he have a frigging loo fitted?

'Tis not everyone on here would echo that remark...

Twenty-twenty hindsight got to work - and it was indeed Sarabande's CO warning device, installed on't opposite bookshelf at eye height, wot did the trick. Some would say I owe him. Others might cuss him for interfering with Natural Selection.....

The unit itself, bulkhead mounted, was rarely used. I was quite comfortable with paraffin-burners, having used them for decades, but the wee window - and the flame - wasn't really visible from where I sat on the opposite settee. The burner crown itself was found to have corroded badly, but this wasn't spotted when lighting the thing. It crumbled under the heat....

I'll put my hands up to all sorts of 'mea culpas', but that's not the point..... which is encouraging others to take a long, sceptical look at their own kit.

 

[pvb]

which is encouraging others to take a long, sceptical look at their own kit.

Which is what I said in post 6, when I wrote "...surely the correct procedure is to ensure that heat sources onboard are safe, rather than relying on a CO alarm?" Your burner crown didn't suddenly decide to be badly corroded. But I still wouldn't have open flame heating on any boat I own. Open flame cooking is fine, because it's attended, and is generally quite well ventilated.

 

[oldbilbo]

Which is what I said in post 6, when I wrote "...surely the correct procedure is to ensure that heat sources onboard are safe, rather than relying on a CO alarm?" Your burner crown didn't suddenly decide to be badly corroded. But I still wouldn't have open flame heating on any boat I own. Open flame cooking is fine, because it's attended, and is generally quite well ventilated.

Y'know, I 'sure as eggs is eggs' agree with you! And I didn't know the CO alarm had been put there.

But - again - that ain't the point.....

 

[pvb]

Y'know, I 'sure as eggs is eggs' agree with you! And I didn't know the CO alarm had been put there.

But - again - that ain't the point.....

Maybe not, but the answer isn't for people to blindly go out and buy CO alarms; the answer is for people to install safe equipment in the first place and then to maintain it properly so that it remains safe.

 

[oldbilbo]

Okay! Okay! You carry the placard.... I'll chant the mantra in the corner....

 

[GHA]

Maybe not, but the answer isn't for people to blindly go out and buy CO alarms; the answer is for people to install safe equipment in the first place and then to maintain it properly so that it remains safe.

What's wrong with the answer being both?

 

[pvb]

What's wrong with the answer being both?

Nothing much, except that for years people took care to look after their heaters, in the days before CO alarms were available. Now, having a CO alarm is fashionable, whereas my view is that people would be better advised to maintain their heaters.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

What's wrong with the answer being both?

Nothing per se but there are psychological matters associated with 'doing something for years' and the belief that safety devices will protect you. In the first matter, routine and familiarity create complacency and a false sense of security, a depressingly frequent root cause in incidents. In the second matter, increased use of safety features actually reduces the perception of danger and increases risk taking e.g. not doing maintenance. This is not my observations this is years of research in safety engineering.

The point pvb is making, I would hazard a guess, is also supported by the same research. People have to be taught and reminded every day of the risks so that they have a heightened sense of danger to themselves and therefore respond to control the situation that is dangerous i.e maintain an appliance or spend the money and replace it with more modern equipment. The wrong approach is not dealing with the risk and the most ineffective control is an alarm. All this has been researched and now forms the basis of HSSE Engineering, it is well understood.

Hierarchy of Hazard Control

1. Elimination
2. Substitution
3. Engineering controls
4. Administrative controls
5. Personal protective equipment

The last one includes alarms and is the least effective at controlling a risk.