Death by Carbon Monoxide

putting it simply, the poisoning may prevent you from thinking "i need fresh air".


it's not outrage, it's concern that bad advice is being given.


And it's about on par with people on the For Sale forum who sell those 4 inch tube radar reflectors and say "2 sq metres reflective area". It's leading people astray from the realities of a flawed practice or piece of kit.
 
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I managed to wake up with a headache followed by nausea and shivers so turned up the Eberspacher a notch. Luckily, fresh air also seemed a good idea and I survived. Problem was a corroded exhaust pipe hidden in an insulating fabric sleeve - I had replaced it 2 seasons previously - that plus a tail wind. Maintenance inspections are now more frequent and a regularly tested CO detector with meter fitted. Incidentally, my cooker grill produces a response on the meter.

I would absolutely encourage the concept that a headache while a carbon fuelled appliance is active should be taken as a serious warning signal. I would also discourage the running of carbon fuelled heaters while sleeping.
 
>Sadly, the numbers of fatalities from CO or CO2 each year disproves your fallacious belief that headaches are a good method of avoiding death.

I agree that all boats should have a CO alarm (also a smoke alarm) but the main reason for CO deaths is that great majority of people don't know the first symptom of CO poisoning is a headache (you clearly didn't) so what I have said is not fallacious it is advice about staying alive and that's why I'm passing it on to everyone here and I hope they pass it on to others. All you are doing is trying to stop me with misleading statements which could lead to more CO deaths.
 
This seem to be a bit circular, its seems reasonable to suggest that if you get a headache you should consider CO, however while its a common symptom of CO exposure I would be very cautious about thinking of it as the first symptom. its also the case that "fresh cold air" often helps with headaches whatever the cause, so just because you feel better for getting outside doesn't mean it was a CO headache

I have a handbook of emergency medicine on the desk and it describes "early features are headache, malaise, nausea and vomiting (sometimes diagnosed as a viral illness or gastroenteritis)".


The bit in brackets is directly from the book, early CO exposure leads to quite non specific symptoms and can be a difficult diagnosis to make accurately, only blood gas tests conform it.

There is also a paragraph about severe poisoning which sounds very grim, it does however say that the cherry red facial colouring is a bit of a myth and is only seen post mortem

The bottom line is if you're burning stuff, regardless of what it is there's a chance of CO and the need need to be very vigilant. if you sleep with heaters running is the alarm loud enough to wake you? and have you an alarm close to where you sleep?
 
KellysEye said:
>
I agree that all boats should have a CO alarm (also a smoke alarm) but the main reason for CO deaths is that great majority of people don't know the first symptom of CO poisoning is a headache (you clearly didn't) so what I have said is not fallacious it is advice about staying alive and that's why I'm passing it on to everyone here and I hope they pass it on to others. All you are doing is trying to stop me with misleading statements which could lead to more CO deaths.
Click to expand...


You are confusing frequency of symptoms with sequence: a headache is not necessarily the first symptom.

You are still incapable of accepting that the effects of CO poisoning can be to make a person unable to realise that a headache may indicate CO poisoning, through reduced or inhibited mental capacity, even if they have been told headache = need for fresh air.

You cannot distinguish between a reason and a cause: the reason for CO deaths is the displacement of oxygen by CO; the causes of excess CO are failure of design of equipment , failure to maintain that equipment, failure of equipment even when maintained properly, failure of detection and alerting systems (and that includes acting upon a headache), and failure to adopt a pragmatic and thorough control system in the management of the boat's cooking/heating system.

This is not mere semantics. Prevention of CO deaths on board is a structured sequence of risk mitigation. Insisting that the most important thing is for people to know about headaches and fresh air, is to deny the greater importance of the prevention and alarm processes which are put in place before excess CO occurs in the cabin. You are relying on one small indicator, which may be rendered worthless by the action of the CO itself in stopping the person becoming aware there is a problem. That to me, as a practitioner in risk management for nearly thirty-five years, is focusing on one point of failure and insisting that it is a catch-all for all the failure nodes of the whole process.


i would be delighted to read your references for your statement about the main reason for CO deaths being ignorance about headaches as a precursor of death. I suspect the causes will be poor design, poor maintenance, operational failure, and absence or failure of alarms.
 
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FFS, what's wrong with you guys? Whether you outfit all your crew and the dog with their own personal CO monitor devices slung round their necks, or prowl around your boat 3 times a day with an £800 sniffer and a hefty maintenance tookit ( sets of spare parts at the ready ).... or merely note the 'heads up' reminder and determine it's not going to be you.... doesn't really matter, except in the Realms of Narnia and on 'ere.

Just be safe, however you manage it.

Puleez?
 
My CO detector cost about 20 bucks from a chandler.
Not a lot if it might save my life or my families.:)
The headache may be a indicator of something being wrong and proper maintenance may be a good idea, but people usually succumb without ever realising there is a problem often their primary goal was getting warm and eliminating drafts. so they seal everything up.

Twenty bucks or about a tenner is cheep piece of mind to add to awareness of the issue and maintenance.
The person who is aware may not be there or capable of realising what is happening due to impairment by CO or other influences which may be enjoyed on a cold night.:)
 
sarabande said:
putting it simply, the poisoning may prevent you from thinking "i need fresh air".

it's not outrage, it's concern that bad advice is being given.
Click to expand...

The NHS does not agree with you that headaches should be ignored:

Being aware of the signs

It's very important to be aware of the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning and to look out for warning signs.

You should suspect carbon monoxide poisoning if:

other people in your house, flat or workplace fall ill with similar symptoms
your symptoms disappear when you go away – for example, on holiday – and return when you come back
your symptoms tend to be seasonal – for example, if you get headaches more often during the winter when the central heating is used more frequently
your pets also become ill

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Carbon-monoxide-poisoning/Pages/Introduction.aspx#symptoms
​
 
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sarabande said:
You are confusing frequency of symptoms with sequence: a headache is not necessarily the first symptom.
Click to expand...

Doesn't mean it should be ignored.

Nobody has said "Don't bother taking any precautions, because you'll always be warned by a headache if you're breathing CO." They are saying "Headaches should be taken seriously, because they may indicate CO poisoning even if you think you have taken sensible precautions."
 
>You are confusing frequency of symptoms with sequence: a headache is not necessarily the first symptom.

If you had bothered to read the NHS URL you posted , and I repeated, you will find as I posted the first symptom on their list is a headache. Look at the URL before posting again.
 
Headache may well be the most commonly reported feature in carbon monoxide poisoning, but it isn't universal and its abscence certainly cannot exclude carbon monxide poisoning. In the days when scienists were brave (!) Haldane exposed himself to carbon monoxide in controlled conditions and described carefully his experiences:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25336613?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

I'm not sure that would get through an ethics committee nowadays! A carbon monxide detector is eminently sensible. My heating engineer told me to install it at ground level. It's actually lighter than air, but diffuses very readily so it doesn't really matter where the detector is placed.
 
Just remember that a sensitive sub £20 piece of elecronics is not likely to be reliable after a few months in a damp environment, like a lot of boats.
It's no substitute for proper kit that isn't trying to kill you and no excuse for plain stupid behaviour like generators with exhausts on deck or in the cockpit, or bringing the smouldering barbeque out of the rain.
Most people who kill themselves or others with CO have done pretty stupid things.
 
lw395 said:
Just remember that a sensitive sub £20 piece of elecronics is not likely to be reliable after a few months in a damp environment, like a lot of boats..
Click to expand...

There are two British Standards for CO alarms

BS EN 50291-1:2010+A1:2012 is applicable to alarms for use in domestic premises .

BS EN 50291-2:2010 ia pplicable to alarms for domestic premises and in situations where thay will be subjet to movement and vibration, such as in caravans and boats


As I said earlier in the thread make sure you have an alarm that is suitable for use in boats, I.e. one which complies with BS EN 50291-2:2010


There is also guide, ‘Guide on the selection, installation, use and maintenance’ of ‘Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises, caravans and boats’. BS EN 50292:2013
 
I have a long history of stupidity.:)
Most of the time I have or used some piece of gear or common-sense to help reduce the consequence of my stupidity.
From time to time just plain old good luck has kept me from succumbing to the negative consequences of Darwin's theory.
Chances are pretty good I will continue to be stupid and do stupid things on occasion.

A simple cheep piece of safety equipment like a CO alarm may just make the difference in keeping me and mine around to continue to do stupid things.
Replacing it every year it still cheep.

From time to time in another aspect of life. I show up after somebody has done something stupid. It never ceases to amaze me how its almost never a stupid person who did the something stupid.
In fact its surprising to find its often some of the "best" who make the worst mistakes.
 
Whatever the cause a very lucky escape. Even af home we sleep with our bedroom window open, just because we both dislike being hot and stuffy.

I can always get warm but have trouble getting cooled off. we visit anyone ee tufn if rads in our room, snd have to open the bedroom door, just can't take the heat

When camping or caravanning we never used a heater, even when really cold.

I always turn of anything bottle gas related at the bottle when not in use. i have had a perished flexible gas pipe in the past, fortunately it stank alerting me. Now to scarred it might have collected and possibly blown up.

Even with all that 'natural over caution' error can still get anyone, complacacy is the biggest killer IMHO.

Alan
 
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