AndrewB
Well-known member
Sorry! (nm)
Dead reckoning?
- Thread starter olavs
- Start date
Reap
New member
Re: Sorry! (nm)
No problem
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No problem
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TheBoatman
New member
Re: Err ... 50-50?
Andrew
I'm glad you said that because I've been sitting here thinking I've been taught wrongly and more importantly been doing it wrong for the past (God knows) how many years.
DR = you know where you started from, course steered, speed, tide etc i.e. you "lay" the tide on to your track first and check for leeway.
EP = You "lay" your tide etc after you use speed, distance travelled etc.
OK I've left myself open to death by forum here, but I have managed to make landfall where I expected to be for the last 30+ years so I don't think I'm to far off<s>
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Andrew
I'm glad you said that because I've been sitting here thinking I've been taught wrongly and more importantly been doing it wrong for the past (God knows) how many years.
DR = you know where you started from, course steered, speed, tide etc i.e. you "lay" the tide on to your track first and check for leeway.
EP = You "lay" your tide etc after you use speed, distance travelled etc.
OK I've left myself open to death by forum here, but I have managed to make landfall where I expected to be for the last 30+ years so I don't think I'm to far off<s>
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MainlySteam
New member
Re: Err ... 50-50?
Dead Reckoning takes account of the vessel's speed and course only, and no account of currents, wind, etc. The position obtained is the Dead Reckoning Position and it is obtained by applying the vessels speed and course for the time elapsed from the last fix.
Comparison of the Dead Reckoning Position with a concurrently made fix gives the sum of currents, wind, etc.
The Estimated Position is the most probable position of the vessel as determined from incomplete data. It is not the Dead Reckoning position corrected just for current and leeway. If no better data is available then the Estimated Position is the Dead Reckoning Position, but it is usually the Dead Reckoning Position enhanced by data such as, but not necessarily all of, current, wind, soundings, lines of position of uncertain accuracy, etc.
I trust that makes a satisfactory addition to the confusion and alternative views, but, of course, it is correct /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
John
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Dead Reckoning takes account of the vessel's speed and course only, and no account of currents, wind, etc. The position obtained is the Dead Reckoning Position and it is obtained by applying the vessels speed and course for the time elapsed from the last fix.
Comparison of the Dead Reckoning Position with a concurrently made fix gives the sum of currents, wind, etc.
The Estimated Position is the most probable position of the vessel as determined from incomplete data. It is not the Dead Reckoning position corrected just for current and leeway. If no better data is available then the Estimated Position is the Dead Reckoning Position, but it is usually the Dead Reckoning Position enhanced by data such as, but not necessarily all of, current, wind, soundings, lines of position of uncertain accuracy, etc.
I trust that makes a satisfactory addition to the confusion and alternative views, but, of course, it is correct /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
John
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G
Guest
Guest
So you get thye name wrong but..
So you may have confused EP and DR .......... but the point is that you have managed to get to the answer - isn't that the whole point of the nav ??
And of course the biggest misunderstanding actually is not DR / EP or anything other than the real meaning and action oif navigation ....... The art of knowing where you HAVE BEEN and in so doing being able to deduce where you are most likely to be ........... sort of differs from the generally accepted view !!!!!
So if you make a landfall using your method and you get the system name wrong - who cares ????? except a YM examiner ?????
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
So you may have confused EP and DR .......... but the point is that you have managed to get to the answer - isn't that the whole point of the nav ??
And of course the biggest misunderstanding actually is not DR / EP or anything other than the real meaning and action oif navigation ....... The art of knowing where you HAVE BEEN and in so doing being able to deduce where you are most likely to be ........... sort of differs from the generally accepted view !!!!!
So if you make a landfall using your method and you get the system name wrong - who cares ????? except a YM examiner ?????
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
G
Guest
Guest
Agreed but one small point...
EP = EP
DR = DR
They never equal each other. They are distinct and separate tersm and answers that remain named - bit like saying that is black, but because no white exists then we will call it white ....... so EP will not be termed DR in theory, but it is common for a navigator to pass to another a EP position that has been worked by EP ....... as the term EP is not so commonly heard across chart tables !!!! Don't ask me why - but that's my experience over the years I did it on Merch .........
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
EP = EP
DR = DR
They never equal each other. They are distinct and separate tersm and answers that remain named - bit like saying that is black, but because no white exists then we will call it white ....... so EP will not be termed DR in theory, but it is common for a navigator to pass to another a EP position that has been worked by EP ....... as the term EP is not so commonly heard across chart tables !!!! Don't ask me why - but that's my experience over the years I did it on Merch .........
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
MainlySteam
New member
Re: Agreed but one small point...
Nigel - like with chain I think we are pretty much in the same boat. I agree that if the best available position is the Dead Reckoning Position, then one should avoid calling it the Estimated Position.
John
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Nigel - like with chain I think we are pretty much in the same boat. I agree that if the best available position is the Dead Reckoning Position, then one should avoid calling it the Estimated Position.
John
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G
Guest
Guest
If someone agrees with me .....
I have to be wrong somewhere !!!!
Cheers
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
I have to be wrong somewhere !!!!
Cheers
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
StugeronSteve
New member
Re: Err ... 50-50?
Yep thats the way I was tought. DR: Speed, time and course steered, EP: The above plus allowance for tidal set, leeway etc.
Steve.
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Yep thats the way I was tought. DR: Speed, time and course steered, EP: The above plus allowance for tidal set, leeway etc.
Steve.
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peterb
New member
Re: Err ... 50-50?
I agree generally that DR is based on course and distance, while EP takes into account leeway, stream, etc.
But I have always wondered why DR can't include leeway. When Columbus went to China (well, that's what he thought!) he could have used his course, and got his distance from log and time. But surely he would have known enough about his ship to be able to estimate leeway? If DR included all that data that was observable on board, while EP added the data (such as current and tidal stream) recorded by other observations, wouldn't it make more sense? It would mean that you could plot your DR as the first vector of your tidal triangle, then just add tide or current to get your EP. At present there seems to be no name for the DR plus leeway position, even though we regularly plot and use it.
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I agree generally that DR is based on course and distance, while EP takes into account leeway, stream, etc.
But I have always wondered why DR can't include leeway. When Columbus went to China (well, that's what he thought!) he could have used his course, and got his distance from log and time. But surely he would have known enough about his ship to be able to estimate leeway? If DR included all that data that was observable on board, while EP added the data (such as current and tidal stream) recorded by other observations, wouldn't it make more sense? It would mean that you could plot your DR as the first vector of your tidal triangle, then just add tide or current to get your EP. At present there seems to be no name for the DR plus leeway position, even though we regularly plot and use it.
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LadyInBed
Well-known member
Re: Err ... 50-50?
I would have no problem including leeway into a DR because under these circumstances my course would actually be my wake course, not my heading.
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I would have no problem including leeway into a DR because under these circumstances my course would actually be my wake course, not my heading.
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G
Guest
Guest
Re: Err ... 50-50?
Leeway in fact is not calculated or a part of either EP / DR but estimated / guessed and allowed in course correction ...... actually not affecting speed ..... We all know that is not physically possible ....... but that is the theory !!
So in fact leeway can be allowed for in any of the DR / EP situations without contravening the meaning of the term.
I know someone will pick me up on this and say I'm wrong and I agree in practical terms ... to say my Sunrider or someones MacWester doesn't lose speed with leeway is bunkum !!!!!! But if you check out the nav books and all sorts you will see ...... calculate position for course and speed (DR) and current / drift / set and then allow x degrees on course for leeway !!!!
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
Leeway in fact is not calculated or a part of either EP / DR but estimated / guessed and allowed in course correction ...... actually not affecting speed ..... We all know that is not physically possible ....... but that is the theory !!
So in fact leeway can be allowed for in any of the DR / EP situations without contravening the meaning of the term.
I know someone will pick me up on this and say I'm wrong and I agree in practical terms ... to say my Sunrider or someones MacWester doesn't lose speed with leeway is bunkum !!!!!! But if you check out the nav books and all sorts you will see ...... calculate position for course and speed (DR) and current / drift / set and then allow x degrees on course for leeway !!!!
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
peterb
New member
Course to steer
If I'm working out a course to steer then I always ignore leeway. Get the boat on to the calculated course, then watch its behaviour for a few minutes. Estimate the leeway, then point up by that amount. I reckon that you'll get a better estimate of leeway on deck than you'll ever get on a chart table.
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If I'm working out a course to steer then I always ignore leeway. Get the boat on to the calculated course, then watch its behaviour for a few minutes. Estimate the leeway, then point up by that amount. I reckon that you'll get a better estimate of leeway on deck than you'll ever get on a chart table.
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G
Guest
Guest
So you see my point and the old boys ....
who wrote the books many moons ago ..... did same basically !
Cheers
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
who wrote the books many moons ago ..... did same basically !
Cheers
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
TheBoatman
New member
Re: Course to steer
I'm now totally confused.
If I can explain what I do, then maybe someone can tell me what I've done? (I.e. DR or EP)
If I want to go from A -B then I draw a line on the chart from A-B. Consult the tidal flows/directions and lay them on at point A. This gives me a course to steer/time to go, after applying the normal calculation(s) of T v M d C. Because most of my sailing is done in the Thames Estuary,Southern North Sea, Dover Straights I have Nav marks to use plus a DGPS Chart plotter system at my disposal but I enjoy attempting to work out the leeway the hard way just to check myself. When I think I know the leeway I apply this to the heading.
This I call DR
I was taught that DR means you lay on the tide etc at point A and at any given time you should have a reasonable fix on your position. EP means you lay it on at point B, which I have never used as it seemed somewhat irrelevant to me. But I may have been using/taught the incorrect terminolgy?
God I can't believe I'm making this post, I feel very exposed here and me with a YM offshore /commercial and a DTI BM licence. Although I have to say that I haven't lost a vessel yet and whilst commercial fishing and going round in circles for the best part of 4 hours, always managed to round up basically where I expected to be without the use of radar<s>
No doubt someone will put me "right"
I would also add that because I have the use of DGPS Chart Plotter I find it just as useful to lay in a route and let the autohelm do the work, result never off course, at the touch of a button can get SOG, DTG, TTG and make landfall on the "button" every time <s>
<<< makes a mental note to move the Longnose WP in the chart plotter because the last time I used it I nearly sunk the boat by hitting it>>>
signed contrite Boatman?
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I'm now totally confused.
If I can explain what I do, then maybe someone can tell me what I've done? (I.e. DR or EP)
If I want to go from A -B then I draw a line on the chart from A-B. Consult the tidal flows/directions and lay them on at point A. This gives me a course to steer/time to go, after applying the normal calculation(s) of T v M d C. Because most of my sailing is done in the Thames Estuary,Southern North Sea, Dover Straights I have Nav marks to use plus a DGPS Chart plotter system at my disposal but I enjoy attempting to work out the leeway the hard way just to check myself. When I think I know the leeway I apply this to the heading.
This I call DR
I was taught that DR means you lay on the tide etc at point A and at any given time you should have a reasonable fix on your position. EP means you lay it on at point B, which I have never used as it seemed somewhat irrelevant to me. But I may have been using/taught the incorrect terminolgy?
God I can't believe I'm making this post, I feel very exposed here and me with a YM offshore /commercial and a DTI BM licence. Although I have to say that I haven't lost a vessel yet and whilst commercial fishing and going round in circles for the best part of 4 hours, always managed to round up basically where I expected to be without the use of radar<s>
No doubt someone will put me "right"
I would also add that because I have the use of DGPS Chart Plotter I find it just as useful to lay in a route and let the autohelm do the work, result never off course, at the touch of a button can get SOG, DTG, TTG and make landfall on the "button" every time <s>
<<< makes a mental note to move the Longnose WP in the chart plotter because the last time I used it I nearly sunk the boat by hitting it>>>
signed contrite Boatman?
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MainlySteam
New member
Re: Course to steer
Don't get me wrong, I do not have a pedantic view on this and personally use the terms loosely. But I think the following is generally correct.
The laying out of a course taking into account the vessels speed, course and time is the Dead Reckoning Plot. It does not include the effects of wind, tide, etc (nor I think deviation, strictly). There is no reason why one cannot run another plot showing the effects of these things, and that is the one that would normally determine the course to be steered, but there is a good reason to maintain the DR Plot as it can be used to determine the other influences on the boats progress (see below).
Using time elapsed from the Departure (which is normally assumed to be a fix) one can determine a DR Position which again does not include the effects of current, wind, etc.
If you adjust the DR Position, or otherwise determine a position by using other data to give an uncertain position, such as using current, wind, soundings, etc you get an Estimated Position.
By comparing a DR position with a Fix, one then determines the other influences (current, wind, etc) on the boats progress which can then be used to modify your tactics for maintaining a corrected plot from which to determine a course or which will in the future assist in determining new Estimated Positions. The DR Plot is restarted from each Fix.
The DR Plot is usually regarded as sufficiently accurate for calculating ETA's, time of raising a light, etc or, in the case of being out of pilotage, making a landfall.
After all that, in the end I too do it basically as you say, although I do normally advance a line from each fix along the boat's heading (with no corrections for current, etc) against which I can refer future fixes to get a rough idea of the external influences (but I very rarely plot a DR Position on that line against which to compare a Fix in order to determine those more accurately - just think to myself, "Looks like I should be heading a bit more thataway to me"!). I rarely determine an EP as a GPS fix is always(?) available.
John (Ducking Also!)
<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by MainlySteam on 02/09/2003 02:36 (server time).</FONT></P>
Don't get me wrong, I do not have a pedantic view on this and personally use the terms loosely. But I think the following is generally correct.
The laying out of a course taking into account the vessels speed, course and time is the Dead Reckoning Plot. It does not include the effects of wind, tide, etc (nor I think deviation, strictly). There is no reason why one cannot run another plot showing the effects of these things, and that is the one that would normally determine the course to be steered, but there is a good reason to maintain the DR Plot as it can be used to determine the other influences on the boats progress (see below).
Using time elapsed from the Departure (which is normally assumed to be a fix) one can determine a DR Position which again does not include the effects of current, wind, etc.
If you adjust the DR Position, or otherwise determine a position by using other data to give an uncertain position, such as using current, wind, soundings, etc you get an Estimated Position.
By comparing a DR position with a Fix, one then determines the other influences (current, wind, etc) on the boats progress which can then be used to modify your tactics for maintaining a corrected plot from which to determine a course or which will in the future assist in determining new Estimated Positions. The DR Plot is restarted from each Fix.
The DR Plot is usually regarded as sufficiently accurate for calculating ETA's, time of raising a light, etc or, in the case of being out of pilotage, making a landfall.
After all that, in the end I too do it basically as you say, although I do normally advance a line from each fix along the boat's heading (with no corrections for current, etc) against which I can refer future fixes to get a rough idea of the external influences (but I very rarely plot a DR Position on that line against which to compare a Fix in order to determine those more accurately - just think to myself, "Looks like I should be heading a bit more thataway to me"!). I rarely determine an EP as a GPS fix is always(?) available.
John (Ducking Also!)
<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by MainlySteam on 02/09/2003 02:36 (server time).</FONT></P>
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Course to steer
The heading you gave is more correct ...... the post heading I mean !!! What you have done is 'pre-calculated' course to steer.
DR actually is to determine position after following a course and speed from a starting known departure position. Let's say using the Mercator sailings formula.
An EP is the same but with adding in the current / set / drift allowances given by local knowledge / tables / charts etc. A more accurate assessment of where you are.
Leeway is the amount of being off course and displaced from the desired course line and in so doing you compensate by turning the head up an estimated amount .......
In practical terms ...... taking a chart and a start position :
Say yuo steer 145 deg true at 6 knots for 2 hours. Draw a line from start position in direction 145 and measure along it 6 x 2 = 12 nm. That is the DR position.
Now using the same line / drawing you have just made ..... and you have calculate / read that there is a set of 045 deg and rate of current at 1.5 knots. From the FINAL DR position draw a line at 045 deg. and measure along it 1.5 x 2hrs = 3 nm. That is now your EP position.
If you think that leeway is going to deflect you from course about +3 deg. Then taking the final DR position course from the original start position minus 3 degrees from it and thats the course you steer to arrive at the EP plot ....... phew got there !!!!
Of course the SOG is the distance /2 from original start to EP plot, similarly the COG is the start to EP plot line.
Anyone confused ?????? If I have errored in my typing etc.please let me know !!!!!
It's interesting that many years ago I used to give talks to yacht groups and also used to assist others in pubs / yards etc. with answers etc. I stopped after one time in The Spinnaker Pub in Hamble. 2 guys were trying to sort out their trip to france and tidal / current allowances ..... this was when GPS was in infant stages and VERY expensive !!!! I'm standing near wiating for my HSB to be placed ready to slurp..... I casually mentioned that maybe I could join the chat and maybe propose an answer ???? To which they both readily agreed. I turned over a beer-mat and drew the triangle of forces, named each line and gave them it and said basically that was all there was to it ...... Boy I did not expect the answer they gave !!!! They were rude and totally dismissive - claiming that it was impossible to be so easy and there must be far more technicality to it, that I obviously knew absolutely nothing about the subject..... I left them with the parting words that navigating ships may just be a good ground to learn on ...... and arguing and vowed I would never ever do it again.
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
The heading you gave is more correct ...... the post heading I mean !!! What you have done is 'pre-calculated' course to steer.
DR actually is to determine position after following a course and speed from a starting known departure position. Let's say using the Mercator sailings formula.
An EP is the same but with adding in the current / set / drift allowances given by local knowledge / tables / charts etc. A more accurate assessment of where you are.
Leeway is the amount of being off course and displaced from the desired course line and in so doing you compensate by turning the head up an estimated amount .......
In practical terms ...... taking a chart and a start position :
Say yuo steer 145 deg true at 6 knots for 2 hours. Draw a line from start position in direction 145 and measure along it 6 x 2 = 12 nm. That is the DR position.
Now using the same line / drawing you have just made ..... and you have calculate / read that there is a set of 045 deg and rate of current at 1.5 knots. From the FINAL DR position draw a line at 045 deg. and measure along it 1.5 x 2hrs = 3 nm. That is now your EP position.
If you think that leeway is going to deflect you from course about +3 deg. Then taking the final DR position course from the original start position minus 3 degrees from it and thats the course you steer to arrive at the EP plot ....... phew got there !!!!
Of course the SOG is the distance /2 from original start to EP plot, similarly the COG is the start to EP plot line.
Anyone confused ?????? If I have errored in my typing etc.please let me know !!!!!
It's interesting that many years ago I used to give talks to yacht groups and also used to assist others in pubs / yards etc. with answers etc. I stopped after one time in The Spinnaker Pub in Hamble. 2 guys were trying to sort out their trip to france and tidal / current allowances ..... this was when GPS was in infant stages and VERY expensive !!!! I'm standing near wiating for my HSB to be placed ready to slurp..... I casually mentioned that maybe I could join the chat and maybe propose an answer ???? To which they both readily agreed. I turned over a beer-mat and drew the triangle of forces, named each line and gave them it and said basically that was all there was to it ...... Boy I did not expect the answer they gave !!!! They were rude and totally dismissive - claiming that it was impossible to be so easy and there must be far more technicality to it, that I obviously knew absolutely nothing about the subject..... I left them with the parting words that navigating ships may just be a good ground to learn on ...... and arguing and vowed I would never ever do it again.
<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !
Reap
New member
Re: Course to steer
Quote from 'The complete Yachtmaster by Tom Cunliffe':
The Dead reckoning position (DR) is worked up from two sources only: your course steered, and your distance run from the last known position. It is plotted by drawing a suitable heading line on the chart and it is marked with a small cross. A DR is the starting point for an EP, but it should not be used on its own, because it leaves out two vital factors affecting where you have actually been.
(Namely Leeway and the Tide Vector.)
Ideally, an EP is plotted at the end of a 'tidal hour'. This makes all calculations and construction as simple as possible etc. etc.......
Quote from RYA shorebased yachtmaster course notes:
Dead reckoning(DR) ia a position deduced from a course steered and a distance run. It makes no allowance for tidal set and drift or leeway. so is of little practical use in coastal navigation.
Estimated position(EP) is the best possible estimate of a present or future position. It is based on a distance run from a known positiuon with an allowance made for both leeway and the tidal set and drift.
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yacht-links.net>http://www.yacht-links.net</A>
Quote from 'The complete Yachtmaster by Tom Cunliffe':
The Dead reckoning position (DR) is worked up from two sources only: your course steered, and your distance run from the last known position. It is plotted by drawing a suitable heading line on the chart and it is marked with a small cross. A DR is the starting point for an EP, but it should not be used on its own, because it leaves out two vital factors affecting where you have actually been.
(Namely Leeway and the Tide Vector.)
Ideally, an EP is plotted at the end of a 'tidal hour'. This makes all calculations and construction as simple as possible etc. etc.......
Quote from RYA shorebased yachtmaster course notes:
Dead reckoning(DR) ia a position deduced from a course steered and a distance run. It makes no allowance for tidal set and drift or leeway. so is of little practical use in coastal navigation.
Estimated position(EP) is the best possible estimate of a present or future position. It is based on a distance run from a known positiuon with an allowance made for both leeway and the tidal set and drift.
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yacht-links.net>http://www.yacht-links.net</A>
MainlySteam
New member
Re: Course to steer
Agree.
But interested in the RYA course notes comment on DR "...so is of little practical use in coastal navigation."
Comparison of the DR position with a concurrent fix gives the actual current/leeway vector (but also including things such as helming error, etc) from the track already run. This is useful in managing ones allowance for those things for the next part of the course to be run ie tells you if one has been allowing for current/leeway appropriately in the immediate past, which may cause you to modify ones allowance for those in the immediate future.
John
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Agree.
But interested in the RYA course notes comment on DR "...so is of little practical use in coastal navigation."
Comparison of the DR position with a concurrent fix gives the actual current/leeway vector (but also including things such as helming error, etc) from the track already run. This is useful in managing ones allowance for those things for the next part of the course to be run ie tells you if one has been allowing for current/leeway appropriately in the immediate past, which may cause you to modify ones allowance for those in the immediate future.
John
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TheBoatman
New member
Re: Course to steer
OK
I've obviously been using EP in place of DR. I will admit to being taught incorrectly and not to my brain having a small seizure (senior moment) and getting the two mixed up.
From now on I will do the same thing but call it EP and not DR. After all today(3rd) is my B/day and I'm over 50 so I think I'm entiled<s>
Thanks one and all<s>
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OK
I've obviously been using EP in place of DR. I will admit to being taught incorrectly and not to my brain having a small seizure (senior moment) and getting the two mixed up.
From now on I will do the same thing but call it EP and not DR. After all today(3rd) is my B/day and I'm over 50 so I think I'm entiled<s>
Thanks one and all<s>
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