Dare I say it, the "A" word ... Anchor advice ....

Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Captainslarty/LadyJessie , firstly its not the anchor manufactureres who are using terms like "drop and forget" it is enthusiastic ( possibly over enthusiastic) users. I count myself amongst the "over enthusiastic". I have very little experience ( one full season of own boat ownership) . In the 15 previous years I anchored on freinds boats in my area of sailing ( clyde /scotland west coast) the CQR was a pain to set. And I experienced one drag. my boat when purchased had a crappy , small CQR copy , so I replaced it with a ( one size up from recommended) Rocna. I then went sailing and anchoring. It would be fair to say that ( except for information gleaned from books and courses) I have no experience and a small amount of knowledge of what to do. The result of setting a rocna every time I laid it , first time , absolutely solidly as far as I could tell , does imply that the "experience" factor may be a red herring ( the sixth time I used my anchor we happily anchored in loch aline ( mud) and sat out wind continuosly over 35 knots overnight - not a dramatic test , but I was happy with it!).
Is it possible that its not such a "black art" with newer anchor designs? What is the " procedure" that you guys are talking about that ensures you anchor OK, or can I only gain that after 10 years and 100's of nights at anchor? Should anchoring be that difficult an art? Could anchors that do work better in weed and difficult surfaces like hard sand be just better things in general?
I don't have a windlass, reseting my anchor would be a complete pain in the @rse, so far I haven't had to do it.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Captainslarty/LadyJessie , firstly its not the anchor manufactureres who are using terms like "drop and forget" it is enthusiastic ( possibly over enthusiastic) users.

[/ QUOTE ]Quite right. We have issues sometimes getting people to remember that it is just a temporary anchor and good seamanship dictates all the normal cautions!

Moreover we for one distribute a user's guide with the anchor, with the intent on educating those boaters with little knowledge or experience. It covers things particular to the Rocna but also basic anchoring do's and don'ts. We figure that has to be a good idea.

Anyway, I do not believe I have ever called any anchor "drop and forget", even if they sometimes appear to rather be just that.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible that its not such a "black art" with newer anchor designs? What is the " procedure" that you guys are talking about that ensures you anchor OK, or can I only gain that after 10 years and 100's of nights at anchor? Should anchoring be that difficult an art? Could anchors that do work better in weed and difficult surfaces like hard sand be just better things in general?
I don't have a windlass, reseting my anchor would be a complete pain in the @rse, so far I haven't had to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]We want to produce, and believe we have produced, an anchor that will set itself in response to a load automatically and with the greatest reliability possible. While an initial set may be carefully and manually applied, we care more about what happens in the worst case scenario. The much greater importance is on handling veering and reversing pulls, and what the anchor does when it's either pulled out totally (does it reset?) or if it's pulled beyond yield (does it pull out and let go completely?). Usually at 3AM. With the 'technique' asleep down below.

A good anchor will handle these situations. It will reset if pulled out, with no intervention. It will not pull out when dragged, but rather give an increasing resistance the faster it moves. It will set immediately and hold over 150 times its weight, with no coaxing, when some guys from SAIL and Yachting Monthly chuck it over the side onto hard sand and tell the powerful motorboat it's tied to at 5:1 scope to start making for the horizon... because if it can do that, it's gonna look after every customer, not just the ones who are happy with the older types.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Sorry Craig - the 'throw and forget' comment was my fault - it was an over-simplification - apologies! I was (badly) trying to make the point that if 'easier' to set anchors are available why struggle setting a traditional anchor?

I have read (and printed a copy!) of the Rocna manual from the internet and it seems quite informative and useful - will be kept on the boat for future reference!

I know there is some debate over the SAIL / YM test results, and their emulation of real life conditions - but they appear to be as good a bechmark under monitored and standardised conditions as we can get and should therefore be taken seriously (IMHO).

[Why oh why did I start all this???]

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry Craig - the 'throw and forget' comment was my fault - it was an over-simplification

[/ QUOTE ]It is true that Craig is smart enough (or does he have good lawyers?) to not have stated something so obviously false on this forum. However, his friend the designer of the Spade anchor wrote in an earlier a-thread in this very forum that "the Spade sets everywhere, everytime". That is what I meant with the dangerous marketing nonsense of the 'modern anchors'. Craig is usually faster than lightning in pointing out inaccuracies in Hylas' postings, but not that time. Guilt by association.........?
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
[. While an initial set may be carefully and manually applied, we care more about what happens in the worst case scenario. The much greater importance is on handling veering and reversing pulls, and what the anchor does when it's either pulled out totally (does it reset?) or if it's pulled beyond yield (does it pull out and let go completely?). Usually at 3AM. With the 'technique' asleep down below.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. That's the whole point. The school of thought that lectures on how important it is to set the anchor properly with 'just the right amount of power' and so on is rubbish. What affects the safety of an anchor is the anchor design and the bottom. If it won't set when you drop it 'casually' then it certainly isn't going to set when the wind changes and picks up when you are ashore, and the anchor un-sets itself. Anyone who has every studied anchor tests will know that this is a usually happening, not a rarity.

The CQR is one of the worst-resetting anchors in all the tests, and that's a fact.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Craig is usually faster than lightning in pointing out inaccuracies in Hylas' postings, but not that time. Guilt by association.........?

[/ QUOTE ]

or just that he's not his brothers keeper, or may have missed it, or couldnt be bothered etc. etc. etc.

It seems that you are as happy to spin circumstances to suit your own argument as you are to suggest that the anchor makers/sellers/supporters over egg the cake.

I think this brings you down to a level which devalues your argument.

Overall, the above is a shame, as much of what you say does have value.

I can repeat that, in the sandy/weedy bottom at P. Andratx, Mallorca, nothing could have given me a worse experience than my CQR, and nothing would make me drop a CQR in a weedy bottom with any confidence ever again. This was reinforced at Vulcano in light grass.

Posts here, and various PMs from people who are wary of being criticised for supporting the new anchors, have convinced me that the new generation are better and, given that they are all that lies between the boat and the shore, worth the money.

I really cant see why you and those like you cant live and let live in respect of anchor types .... Liferafts and much other stuff doesnt seem to engender the same feelings, yet prices and types etc. are even more variable.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
I really cant see why you and those like you cant live and let live in respect of anchor types .... Liferafts and much other stuff doesnt seem to engender the same feelings, yet prices and types etc. are even more variable.

[/ QUOTE ]'twas always thus. Could the answer lie in where most people stow their anchors? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Very Freudian /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
I really cant see why you and those like you cant live and let live in respect of anchor types .... Liferafts and much other stuff doesnt seem to engender the same feelings, yet prices and types etc. are even more variable.

[/ QUOTE ]

My feelings exactly! Also, the cost of even the most expensive anchor I am considering is less than 14 nights in a marina, how long does an anchor last ... more than 2 weeks ... potential savings in marina fees if your happy in your anchor are therefore significant.

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. That's the whole point. The school of thought that lectures on how important it is to set the anchor properly with 'just the right amount of power' and so on is rubbish. What affects the safety of an anchor is the anchor design and the bottom. If it won't set when you drop it 'casually' then it certainly isn't going to set when the wind changes and picks up when you are ashore, and the anchor un-sets itself. Anyone who has every studied anchor tests will know that this is a usually happening, not a rarity.

The CQR is one of the worst-resetting anchors in all the tests, and that's a fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

A very good point - all of your technique is worthless when the wind shifts in the middle of the night, regardless how well set it was in the first place - I for one have seen big curved shaped grooves in Abersoch bay first thing in the morning leading to my CQR anchor, fortunately it was quite calm!

I knew this thread would start to go this way eventually, maybe its time to take a back seat and let the bun throwing commence? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the cost of even the most expensive anchor I am considering is less than 14 nights in a marina, how long does an anchor last ... more than 2 weeks ... potential savings in marina fees if your happy in your anchor are therefore significant.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. Here in the liveaboard section we are talking about our homes hanging on an anchor month after month. There is powerful evidence that the new anchors are vastly superior to the old ones.

Re bun fights: It would be lovely to find buns down here to have a fight with /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
The school of thought that lectures on how important it is to set the anchor properly with 'just the right amount of power' and so on is rubbish. What affects the safety of an anchor is the anchor design and the bottom. If it won't set when you drop it 'casually' then it certainly isn't going to set when the wind changes and picks up when you are ashore, and the anchor un-sets itself. Anyone who has every studied anchor tests will know that this is a usually happening, not a rarity.

[/ QUOTE ]I think this is a good example of the incorrect and dubious 'information' that the new anchor marketers are spreading; that they have somehow designed something new that can handle a windshift. Now, a windshift at night is unfortunately a pretty common event and every anchor should be able to handle it. If I thought that my CQR could not handle a windshift; I would have replaced it long time ago. This IMHO is another example of disinformation and it can lead less experienced sailors to make the wrong decision.

And please Lemain, don't quote 'tests' as any evidence. Do you also believe all the positive boat tests in the yotting rags?
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
And please Lemain, don't quote 'tests' as any evidence. Do you also believe all the positive boat tests in the yotting rags?

[/ QUOTE ]If you won't believe any of the evidence from controlled tests is there any point in having a discussion with you on this subject? What are you looking for, the endorsement of God Almighty?
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
Jonny,

Oh boo for being such a reasonable chap, the flames were just getting going
Thanks for keeping the debate on a level keel.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I tried, and it lasted a while, but hey ho!!!

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

>If you won't believe any of the evidence from controlled tests

Well I must admit I don't believe them at all e.g.pulling anchors in a straight line is nonsense, anchors have snatch loads.

IMO anchor tests rank with MOB kit tests - near flat calm, at least four winch monkeys aboard etc.

I wish somebody would hire 12 charter boats of the same make and model, anchor them properly in mud with 12 different anchors when a gale and a 90 degree wind shift is forecast. Then do it in sand etc etc. Then I'd take note.

Maybe the somebody hiring the boats should be a cooperative of manufacturers, should sort out the bulls******s.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

But Johnny you do come over as disingenuous when you appeal for a sensible debate while stirring things up just on the previous page. I genuinely hope you do post less and anchor more because you might discover that lots and lots of fellow cruisers are doing it equally well with all sorts of anchor. They don’t all end up on the beach every wind shift nor do they make the mistake of spending a quite substantial sum of money for a misguided sense of safety.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

The most experienced cruisers I know (started full-time in 1976 and still going strong) - almost never use a marina except for the winter - always try to find a mooring buoy or moorings on the seabed rather than anchor. They always dive down to check if it is possible to do so and tend not to stay long unless they can inspect their anchor and the sea bottom. I shan't reveal which main anchor they have but it isn't a new one and it isn't a CQR or Bruce. Regardless of the type of anchor I know that they would do it the same.

Craig was correct when he said that these things are for temporary moorings not permanent ones. They are far from perfect and must be treated as suspect in bad conditions. Obviously you can reduce the risks by using the best anchor you can afford, avoid dodgy bottoms, plenty of chain and dig it in but at the end of the day it is a temporary mooring.

People who rely on an anchor day in, day out, expecting no problems will have a nasty surprise one day, no matter what make of anchor and no matter how careful they are.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Mike,

Sorry if thats how it came across. The post on the prior page was a joke in response to another post. If you read back through the thread you will see that from the outset my intention has been to try to gleam information from cruisers as to their opinion on the new generation of anchors. I have tried on numerous occassions so far to steer this thread away from bickering and toward the objective I have just outlined. However, there comes a time when the thread goes its on way and drifts away from the inital post - as this has now done.

Once again, thanks to everyone for their input. There is clearly a distinct gap between those who use a CQR and those who have converted to the newer anchors. I am not in a position to say which is 'better' (however you define that). I suspect this will be a gap that never closes, just as the SSB vs HAM; centre cockpit vs aft cockpit etc threads appear time and time again.

I have found all the comments useful, and will honestly take all of them on board.

I only fear that the nature of some of the posts detracts from the overall good theme of the thread. If I stirred things up, I apologise, I have tried to steer the thread on a steady course throughout.

I also feel that due to the strong views some people hold, many may feel pressured not to post on this forum due to critiscm or stereotyping for their choices.

Jonny
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

[ QUOTE ]
If you won't believe any of the evidence from controlled tests is there any point in having a discussion with you on this subject? What are you looking for, the endorsement of God Almighty?

[/ QUOTE ]I believe the difference between us Lemain, is that I am approaching this using my own experience and that of many, many of my fellow cruisers. I will always believe my own experiences to be more true and valid than any test in a paper. You seem IMHO to approach this from a somewhat theoretical angle; just reading tests. I don't think that will tell you all the truths and facts you need. 'Experience is a tough master' but I think in the end that is the only way to find out how many things work in this world; anchors are not an exception to this.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

Jonny, you are a brave soul. The a-word is a very difficult one on this forum as we have such a diverse and opinionated group here. I am quilty of being one that stirs things up as I have little time for some of the uninformed nonsense (IMHO of course...) being said on this subject, just as I am sure others think the same of my contributions. Hope you still got some interesting thoughts out of this.

Now the really interesting thread to start is to understand why all these emotions are being spent on anchors. As is correctly noted in a post above, there are much more important subjects for liveaboards; liferafts, teak deck maintenance, sundowners, secluded bays in Greece, etcetera, etcetera. It does not get the same coverage as the dull subject of anchors. Why is that? Now that is a mystery to me. There is never an anchor discussion in a yottie bar in the Med. We have more important things to cover.
 
Re: Dare I say it, the \"A\" word ... Anchor advice ....

"why all these emotions are being spent on anchors."

That is something I have often pondered on, and FWIW here are some of my conclusions:

1) Some people take it as a personal attack if they perceive the implication that their anchoring skills are at fault

2) It is common to think that your own gear is superior to some "new-fangled" stuff. (This is very common among sailors IMO, with innovations from other fields taking a long time to become established)

3) There is a suspicion about testing results, many of which are subsequently shown to be inadequate or biased. So personal experience is the dominant factor.

4) The behaviour of anchors and rodes, according to those who have specialised in the study, sometimes seems to be counter-intuitive. Those who don't have a grasp of the maths tend to reject the findings (eg all chain v. chain + rope)

5) Statements like "That's what everyone uses round here, so it must be best" get up the nose of someone who knows of better gear

6) Skill in choosing an anchoring spot, and setting the gear, is undoubtedly hugely important - but implying that that is why someone is having problems with their particular gear is insensitive at best, and could be very insulting

7) I bet the majority of people who have ever anchored have not seen what actually happens on the sea bed, and maybe noone has watched how the anchor and rode behaves in extreme conditions. There are a lot of assumptions based on personal experience, which may not be what actually happens. So "I'm right, you are wrong" happens.

That will do for now /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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