Dangerously unintelligible VHF exchanges

[Irish Rover]

I posted this on another thread yesterday
" I came across a report about a similar incident in the North Sea in 2012 where a Bahamas ship the Baltic Ace sank after a collision. The other vessel was Cypriot registered and the Cypriot inquiry concluded "the most probable cause of the accident is the failure of the officers on watch to understand each other's intentions".
Most of my boating is done around the Eastern Aegean which is not an area where we generally see heavy commercial traffic. This year I spent a good few weeks in the Western Aegean including the Saronic Gulf where there is very heavy traffic. Some of the ship to ship VHF communications amazed and appalled me in equal measure. Some of it was just unintelligible gibberish. It was clear many of the officers involved hardly spoke English and understood considerably less. They could announce in broken, heavily accented English what they intended to do but were totally lost if the other ships response was more than a word or two.
I wonder how many accidents happen because of "the failure of the officers on watch to understand each other's intentions".

 

[DFL1010]

That's why it's discouraged.

MGN 324 (M+F) Amendment 2

 

[Irish Rover]

That's why it's discouraged.

MGN 324 (M+F) Amendment 2

That's very interesting. I wasn't aware of it but it bears out what I'm saying. Some of the gibberish I heard especially close to Pireaus port, which is a VTS controlled area, was frightening.

 

[capnsensible]

That's very interesting. I wasn't aware of it but it bears out what I'm saying. Some of the gibberish I heard especially close to Pireaus port, which is a VTS controlled area, was frightening.

Absolutely, I agree! Sit down and breathe.

I spent a lot of years sailing back and forth across and through the Straits of Gibraltar. Very busy with loadsa through traffic, ferries, high speed ferries, fishermen from Spain and Morocco, pleasure vesselsbof all sorts and a Traffic Seperation Scheme complete with a 'roundabout' off Tangier Med, a big port.,

The vhf traffic is constant. Very frequently heard watchkeepers discussing how they will pass each other in broken English from both sides. Occasional row and swearing. Overlaid with constant vhf alerts for weather forecasts and missing migrant boats crossing. In English, French, Spanish and Arabic.

Plus bored fishermen playing short bursts of music, using 16 as a chat channel and not so much these days, the infamous 'Philippino monkey' also whistled.

I'm sure it must be the same at lots of the worlds chokepoints. Although I must say, more disciplined off Panama.

We are lucky that we speak English as a first language. Must be hard for some watchkeepers to get it right, especially when stress levels move up a notch. Will ais solve it? Dunno.

 

[Irish Rover]

Absolutely, I agree! Sit down and breathe.

Thanks for your concern. Are you a nurse?

 

[capnsensible]

Thanks for your concern. Are you a nurse?

 

[Sandy]

I posted this on another thread yesterday
" I came across a report about a similar incident in the North Sea in 2012 where a Bahamas ship the Baltic Ace sank after a collision. The other vessel was Cypriot registered and the Cypriot inquiry concluded "the most probable cause of the accident is the failure of the officers on watch to understand each other's intentions".
Most of my boating is done around the Eastern Aegean which is not an area where we generally see heavy commercial traffic. This year I spent a good few weeks in the Western Aegean including the Saronic Gulf where there is very heavy traffic. Some of the ship to ship VHF communications amazed and appalled me in equal measure. Some of it was just unintelligible gibberish. It was clear many of the officers involved hardly spoke English and understood considerably less. They could announce in broken, heavily accented English what they intended to do but were totally lost if the other ships response was more than a word or two.
I wonder how many accidents happen because of "the failure of the officers on watch to understand each other's intentions".

Err um, COLREGS are there to give mariners a set of simple, logical rules there should be no need to reach for the radio mic at any time.

I have never needed to call a ship, even when crossing busy shipping lanes, and have heard very, very little radio traffic between the big stuff when doing so.

On passage down the La Manche a member of crew did call up a ship that was giving him the heebie jeebies, Scots for crapping in his pants, the reply was, 'Don't worry I spotted you 20 minutes ago and have put in a 2° course correction'.

Given what has gone on in the North Sea over the last week and after looking at the AIS tracks I cannot see that VHF comms played any part in the situation.

 

[srm]

Apparently, discussing what to do with another vessel is regarded as the norm in US waters, but discouraged in the UK.
A colleague when OOW on a British ship (before AIS) in US waters was called up on VHF and asked his intentions. His reply, "comply with the COLREGS."

 

[RogerJolly]

Err um, COLREGS are there to give mariners a set of simple, logical rules there should be no need to reach for the radio mic at any time.

I have never needed to call a ship, even when crossing busy shipping lanes, and have heard very, very little radio traffic between the big stuff when doing so.

On passage down the La Manche a member of crew did call up a ship that was giving him the heebie jeebies, Scots for crapping in his pants, the reply was, 'Don't worry I spotted you 20 minutes ago and have put in a 2° course correction'.

Given what has gone on in the North Sea over the last week and after looking at the AIS tracks I cannot see that VHF comms played any part in the situation.

Is there a website with the simple, logical rules? Hoping for something official, like the highway code, but not in overblown bureaucrat-speak. Adapted for those of the meanest understanding, with maybe pictures.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

We are lucky that we speak English as a first language. Must be hard for some watchkeepers to get it right, especially when stress levels move up a notch. Will ais solve it? Dunno.

A friend of mine has just passed her Second Officer oral examination - in English. She is a native of Hong Kong and her first language is Cantonese. She speaks perfectly reasonable conversational English, but she doesn't really think in it, isn't confident in it, and had difficulty with the oral exam - this was her third try. But it is my understanding that the international language for shipping, as for aircraft, is English, and that anyone qualifying as a ship's officer has to be able to exchange information in that language. But I think that Hong Kong is probably stricter than most places in insisting on the use of English during qualification exams; English is still an official language here.

I fully agree that the use of VHF for collision avoidance should not be necessary, and as has been pointed out, it's use for that is firmly discouraged by the Power That Be!

One thing I noticed during her cadet years was that she served on ships with various nationalities on board - mainly Indian. The only common language was English.

 

[RogerJolly]

Liverpool got given offside in the most horrendous mis-communication, and everyone spoke English (guessing).

 

[DFL1010]

Common language of the sea is English.

For this reason the IMO have published the Standard Marine Communication Phrases.

This being IMO, it's not free but an older version can be found here.

Sets out how to communicate in a logical and unambiguous manner. THe use of 'message markers' is especially useful.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I’ll put my hand up. One of the very very rare occasions when I’ve called up a ship was a year or two ago. I was motor sailing across the channel and I am that sad mariner who actually had a cone up point down to show our status. A ship coming from starboard had the cone obscured to him by our genoa, so I called him up and explained I was motoring and I was altering for him in accordance with IRPCS. He was very gracious and said thank you….

 

[RupertW]

Is there a website with the simple, logical rules? Hoping for something official, like the highway code, but not in overblown bureaucrat-speak. Adapted for those of the meanest understanding, with maybe pictures.

This sort of thing is a good fun way of learning by example.

Flip Cards - Rule of Road Pack

 

[Irish Rover]

Err um, COLREGS are there to give mariners a set of simple, logical rules there should be no need to reach for the radio mic at any time.

I have never needed to call a ship, even when crossing busy shipping lanes, and have heard very, very little radio traffic between the big stuff when doing so.

On passage down the La Manche a member of crew did call up a ship that was giving him the heebie jeebies, Scots for crapping in his pants, the reply was, 'Don't worry I spotted you 20 minutes ago and have put in a 2° course correction'.

Given what has gone on in the North Sea over the last week and after looking at the AIS tracks I cannot see that VHF comms played any part in the situation.

Regarding your last point that's why I started a separate thread and referenced the report in relation to the Arctic Ash sinking which does conclude the VHF exchange was the most probable cause.
I'm no expert on Colregs. I'm, at best, an average amateur small pleasure boat operator. Colregs leave a huge amount to discretion. For instance let's assume I'm see a boat approaching from my port side. I'm stand on. When do I decide he's not going to give way and take evasive action and what's my best course of action? I'd be inclined to turn to port to pass by his stern. But if he decides to do the right thing at the same time as me we increase the risk of collision.
I'm probably setting myself up for a roasting here, but, what the hell.

 

[finestgreen]

Is there a website with the simple, logical rules? Hoping for something official, like the highway code, but not in overblown bureaucrat-speak. Adapted for those of the meanest understanding, with maybe pictures.

Would recommend this book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seamans-Guide-Rule-Road/dp/0948254580/

It's chunky but it's essentially a full training course in book format, builds everything up bit by bit with questions and exercises throughout to check your understanding

 

[DFL1010]

Regarding your last point that's why I started a separate thread and referenced the report in relation to the Arctic Ash sinking which does conclude the VHF exchange was the most probable cause.
I'm no expert on Colregs. I'm, at best, an average amateur small pleasure boat operator. Colregs leave a huge amount to discretion. For instance let's assume I'm see a boat approaching from my port side. I'm stand on. When do I decide he's not going to give way and take evasive action and what's my best course of action? I'd be inclined to turn to port to pass by his stern. But if he decides to do the right thing at the same time as me we increase the risk of collision.
I'm probably setting myself up for a roasting here, but, what the hell.

Answered your own question really.

Either slow down and/or alter to stbd (including a full round turn if reqd).

 

[finestgreen]

Regarding your last point that's why I started a separate thread and referenced the report in relation to the Arctic Ash sinking which does conclude the VHF exchange was the most probable cause.
I'm no expert on Colregs. I'm, at best, an average amateur small pleasure boat operator. Colregs leave a huge amount to discretion. For instance let's assume I'm see a boat approaching from my port side. I'm stand on. When do I decide he's not going to give way and take evasive action and what's my best course of action? I'd be inclined to turn to port to pass by his stern. But if he decides to do the right thing at the same time as me we increase the risk of collision.
I'm probably setting myself up for a roasting here, but, what the hell.

I'm no expert either but I'll risk being roasted next to you

I think: you should sound five short blasts as soon as you're not confident they'll give way effectively.

You should take evasive action before you run out of time for it to be effective.

You might consider slowing down or stopping if practical. If not, probably make a big bold turn to starboard.

 

[dunedin]

Don’t have to go far to get unintelligible VHF comms - lots of non standard terms used in UK waters.

An outfit called BUTEC spend hours calling people and getting no responses. Partly because they fail to realise that many have no idea what the acronym BUTEC is, and they never explain their location and purpose. If they do manage to get a reply they want to “Chop” rather than switch channels, and “Roger” this and “Roger” that.
Was amusing last time past them when they spent literally 45 minutes repeatedly trying to contact a yacht - who clearly had their VHF switched off. What was more amusing, latterly they spent over 20 minutes trying to make contact with one of the three guard boats in the area to go and physically intercept the yacht. We could see BUTEC, the yacht and the guard boats - but for 20 minutes their own guard boat failed to respond on Channel 16 ! By the time they answered the yacht was in the middle of their live range.

 

[Irish Rover]

I'm no expert either but I'll risk being roasted next to you

I think: you should sound five short blasts as soon as you're not confident they'll give way effectively.

You should take evasive action before you run out of time for it to be effective.

You might consider slowing down or stopping if practical. If not, probably make a big bold turn to starboard.

You can see the attraction of using the VHF, though, especially if he's on AIS and you can make a DSC call