Irish Rover
Well-known member
Don't forget the bleedin Oirish
.
Dangerously unintelligible VHF exchanges
- Thread starter Irish Rover
- Start date
.boomerangben
Well-known member
But there are Scousers, Geordies, Wegies and teuchters who fly and do air traffic control and we all manage very nicely!!
If we draw parallels with aviation, which could be said is fair comparison (both global in coverage, international in make up and both governed by UN based organisations) if ICAO can ensure reasonable adherence to language skills requirements and knowledge of rules of the air by pilots and air traffic control, why can’t the IMO do the same for watch keepers at sea?
I get that the marine community is a much larger, more easily accessible at the grass roots level (buy/build/inherit yourself a boat and dodge as much of the bureaucracy as you can without getting caught) meaning that it is much more difficult to enforce minimum standards, whereas aviation tends to be a bit more Darwinian (aircraft tend to kill those learning by themselves) and/or Dickensian (if you are wise enough to get someone to teach you then you learn how big the rule book is) and expensive to access.
If it is a safety problem, why doesn’t the IMO do more to address it?
If we draw parallels with aviation, which could be said is fair comparison (both global in coverage, international in make up and both governed by UN based organisations) if ICAO can ensure reasonable adherence to language skills requirements and knowledge of rules of the air by pilots and air traffic control, why can’t the IMO do the same for watch keepers at sea?
I get that the marine community is a much larger, more easily accessible at the grass roots level (buy/build/inherit yourself a boat and dodge as much of the bureaucracy as you can without getting caught) meaning that it is much more difficult to enforce minimum standards, whereas aviation tends to be a bit more Darwinian (aircraft tend to kill those learning by themselves) and/or Dickensian (if you are wise enough to get someone to teach you then you learn how big the rule book is) and expensive to access.
If it is a safety problem, why doesn’t the IMO do more to address it?
RunAgroundHard
Well-known member
It is my understanding that IMO, STCW Conference states that a good command of english, spoken word, reading and writing, is required for officers, ratings who may helm or maintain a watch at sea and crew who interact with passengers in emergency situations. I do not know if this is a recommendation or mandatory requirement for those who train under the STCW banner.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
I think that there's a combination of issues. First of all, the entire operating crew of an aircraft is small, and flights are short. Pilot and copilot, perhaps doubled on a long haul flight. The days of flight engineers and navigators are past, but even when they were usual, the operating crew was only 4. All the essential crew are in the command team, all trained to the same standard. Ships need a much larger team, which includes ordinary sailors; the level of training varies widely, and lower ranking crew members aren't required to learn English. English is the usual language of aviation, but because of the larger crew of a ship, although English is the language for marine communications, it isn't the working language on most ships.
You alluded to the other issue - in many countries there are alternative routes to command of a vessel, not all of which ensure a firm grasp of English. A ship's officer may only know English formulae, and be unable to comprehend anything beyond that. That's one reason for the standardized form of a Mayday, and communications with VTS and so on tend to be in formulae, not colloquial English. It's the reason for prowords in VHF protocols.
Even in aviation there have been accidents caused by the use of non standard language in communications between ATC and aircraft. Any communication that isn't governed by strict protocols bears the risk of misunderstanding.
fisherman
Well-known member
An exchange heard off the Lizard, ch16, mid 90s
(in a heavy irish accent) "What the hell are you doin', yer a chemical tanker for Christsake, I've been trying to avoid you for the last twenty minutes"
"....al slippin' on dis sheep"
we looked round and saw the black smoke from, presumably, an emergency manoeuvre.
(in a heavy irish accent) "What the hell are you doin', yer a chemical tanker for Christsake, I've been trying to avoid you for the last twenty minutes"
"....al slippin' on dis sheep"
we looked round and saw the black smoke from, presumably, an emergency manoeuvre.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
Must be the Irish accent - I've no idea what this is about
fisherman
Well-known member
Apparently a ship was having difficulty avoiding a collision with a chemical tanker, the Irish OOW called on 16 to complain, the reply came from the other OOW in poor English that he was the only one awake, maybe intimating that he was not very confident or capable.
No surprise to me having spent many years fishing that area, and having nearly been run down.
No surprise to me having spent many years fishing that area, and having nearly been run down.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
Thanks. My initial thought was Paddy might have confused a live animal carrier for a chemical tanker and had interrupted an intimate moment
.
TwoHooter
Well-known member
It isn't just shipping that has interesting radio exchanges. Aviation has its share. Plenty on Youtube. Here's my anecdote, from 1986, at a Spanish airport where I had landed one evening enroute Casablanca - Parham (in short hops).
An inbound Swiss light aircraft had got lost in the twilight. This was before GPS and attempts to locate him using Direction Finding were being made on the Tower frequency instead of Approach. The result was total chaos for several minutes. I heard the exasperated Tower ATC say to the inbound pilot, "Hotel Kilo; Be quiet and tell me whether you are over land or sea." This was followed immediately by a frenzied screech from the same controller to a British Airways 737 that had landed several minutes before: "Speedbird ###, you just made a 180 on the runway when I have an aircraft on finals! You don't never make a 180 without I tell you so!" To which the 737 laconically replied, in the sort of drawl one might associate with Simon Templar, "We couldn't get a word in edgeways. If you gave us some instructions we would know what to do." I sat in the cockpit of my little single seater unwinding from my flight and reflecting on the fact that ten minutes previously the 737 had been cleared to land while I was still on the runway.
An inbound Swiss light aircraft had got lost in the twilight. This was before GPS and attempts to locate him using Direction Finding were being made on the Tower frequency instead of Approach. The result was total chaos for several minutes. I heard the exasperated Tower ATC say to the inbound pilot, "Hotel Kilo; Be quiet and tell me whether you are over land or sea." This was followed immediately by a frenzied screech from the same controller to a British Airways 737 that had landed several minutes before: "Speedbird ###, you just made a 180 on the runway when I have an aircraft on finals! You don't never make a 180 without I tell you so!" To which the 737 laconically replied, in the sort of drawl one might associate with Simon Templar, "We couldn't get a word in edgeways. If you gave us some instructions we would know what to do." I sat in the cockpit of my little single seater unwinding from my flight and reflecting on the fact that ten minutes previously the 737 had been cleared to land while I was still on the runway.
penfold
Well-known member
He'd have been 6-8nm and 2-3 minutes away from the threshold at that point, so plenty of time to get clear but no time for lollygagging.
TwoHooter
Well-known member
My maximum taxi speed was 4 mph because my tail skid had been replaced with a supermarket trolley wheel so I could land on hard surfaces. But of course I could have turned on to the grass. And he would probably have seen me. But it's a weird feeling hearing someone else cleared to land while you are on the runway. It kind of suggests that ATC has forgotten all about you. It was unforgettable for me.
Picture taken elsewhere.
wonkywinch
Well-known member
There have been many incidents across France including CDG due to the insistence of French ATC & French airline pilots to speak their own language.
Accident/incident reports continue to highlight the loss of situational awareness this causes to other airlines but the practise continues.
No doubt there are similar issues in Quebec where ATC also speak French to AF etc.
Accident/incident reports continue to highlight the loss of situational awareness this causes to other airlines but the practise continues.
No doubt there are similar issues in Quebec where ATC also speak French to AF etc.
mjcoon
Well-known member
When was it the French gave up and agreed to base longitude on Greenwich (IIRC)?
penfold
Well-known member
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
For entirely historical reasons, French continues to be one of the languages approved for international communications. The ICAO is based in Montreal, in French speaking Canada, and Montreal is more French than France!