Cruising the racer?

[Lucky Duck]

Raced on a 31.7 as a main trimmer for a while. Often had the mainsheet uncleated - usually only cleated with any sort of wind if I was playing the fine tuner, and then I'd have the traveller in my hand in case I needed to dump it very quickly.

I really wouldn't recommend the 31.7 for family cruising. It's not so much that they can broach, but that they can go from being OK to broaching in a blink. Even the headsail can cause it.

Reef earlier when cruising to buy yourself a greater margin of error?

I cruised a 31.7 quite extensively for 4 seasons. It did have a tendency to broach but provided you reefed early it wasn't a major problem

 

[lpdsn]

Reef earlier when cruising to buy yourself a greater margin of error?

The damn things barely had enough sail area in the first place.

Never cruised one, but I remain to be convinced. In my own boat I've had the wind going between F1 and F6 on a few occasions, but she can handle it. That would've been scary for novices and family members in a 31.7.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Thanks for that. However the only Elan333 that won it's class was in the ISC classes - 5B. Undoubtedly a great result, but not quite the same as an IRC win. The fastest Elan 333 in IRC3A was 20 minutes faster than the ISC Elan. Photos of the ISC Elan show white sails etc, so not surprising that a fully carbon sailed (as I know the fastest 333 is) sistership is that much faster - in fact actually a great result to only be 20 min slower.

I'm really looking for examples of boats being used for a serious crack at events like Cowes, Dartmouth, Cork, IRC nationals etc - and also being used as cruisers.

Another Knot did spring to mind when I first read this thread but as you note his racing is at ISC and NHC level. Sails are a basic laminate with coded headsails although furler mounted rather than using a tuff luff rather than plain Dacron


I note an Arcona 410 is enjoying some success in RORC racing but I don't know how much cruising gets done.

 

[lpdsn]

I note an Arcona 410 is enjoying some success in RORC racing but I don't know how much cruising gets done.

At one stage I did look very seriously at an Arcona 370. Nice fast boats but I decided the cockpit layout was sub-optimal for a full crew doing inshore racing. Would be less of a problem for offshore racing. Has the 410 changed that much?

 

[jac]

The damn things barely had enough sail area in the first place.

Never cruised one, but I remain to be convinced. In my own boat I've had the wind going between F1 and F6 on a few occasions, but she can handle it. That would've been scary for novices and family members in a 31.7.

I have an out and out cruiser and that will broach if gets hit by a F6 with full sail up!

 

[Lucky Duck]

At one stage I did look very seriously at an Arcona 370. Nice fast boats but I decided the cockpit layout was sub-optimal for a full crew doing inshore racing. Would be less of a problem for offshore racing. Has the 410 changed that much?

Its a newer design so has twin wheels and a wider stern but, for example, all the sail controls will be taken back to cockpit clutches rather than having them mounted where they would be accessible for a full racing crew

 

[lpdsn]

Its a newer design so has twin wheels and a wider stern but, for example, all the sail controls will be taken back to cockpit clutches rather than having them mounted where they would be accessible for a full racing crew

It was the sheet winches that I remember being the worst offenders. So far aft the the jib trimmer had to face aft and look over his shoulder at the sail.

 

[lpdsn]

I have an out and out cruiser and that will broach if gets hit by a F6 with full sail up!

That wasn't the point I was making. Most boats can deal with being a bit over canvassed for a while, the 31.7s can't, so if you want to avoid it in gusty conditions you have to be way under canvassed most of the time (or have a experienced racing type crew). Of course, each to his own, just explaining why I don't consider them good cruisers.

 

[Kerenza]

I think the original question was about actual boats rather than wider observations and therefore some if not all of the cruising crew will be racers also, the case with the 31.7 I mentioned.
As an aside, I trimmed the main on that boat for a few years and had less than a handful of broaches, although I agree the main was depowered quite a lot!

 

[lpdsn]

As an aside, I trimmed the main on that boat for a few years and had less than a handful of broaches, although I agree the main was depowered quite a lot!

It was less the broaches than the fast reactions needed from the main trimmer to keep the boat going in a straight line in gusty conditions. I just don't think cruising crew would like to have to give it that much focus, rather than having a cup of tea and a natter. Anyway, don't want to bore everyone to tears on this, so happy to accept other people have different opinions.

 

[RobbieW]

From the OPs question, I think the answer has a lot more to do with the skills/inclination of the owner(s) than the boat per se. There is also an Arcona (I think, I'll have to try and research a bit) that did well in RiR (cant remember if that was ISC or IRC) but that boat was stripped of everything they didnt need to race the day before.

 

[awol]

One year prior to an Autumn/Winter series one year I stripped most of the extraneous gear out of my CO32 and, before dumping it in the garage, weighed it. Over 400kg (or 3.9kN for the pedants) of extra anchors, chain, gas bottles, warps, tools, spares, outboard, liferaft, dinghy, sails, cushions (allowed by rules), food, plates and cutlery, etc. - none of which I would go cruising without. The boat floated noticeably higher and I lost one excuse for bad performances.

 

[onesea]

One year prior to an Autumn/Winter series one year I stripped most of the extraneous gear out of my CO32 and, before dumping it in the garage, weighed it. Over 400kg (or 3.9kN for the pedants) of extra anchors, chain, gas bottles, warps, tools, spares, outboard, liferaft, dinghy, sails, cushions (allowed by rules), food, plates and cutlery, etc. - none of which I would go cruising without. The boat floated noticeably higher and I lost one excuse for bad performances.

It is amazing the difference removing weight makes we do it 2 or 3 times a year if we think she needs it or not. Amazing how the case of beer, case of wine extra canned food, outboard, inflatable canoe, extra fender & boat hook etc mount up... If you do it when the waterline is not clean you come back the next day and can see she is lighter!

It was less the broaches than the fast reactions needed from the main trimmer to keep the boat going in a straight line in gusty conditions. I just don't think cruising crew would like to have to give it that much focus, rather than having a cup of tea and a natter. Anyway, don't want to bore everyone to tears on this, so happy to accept other people have different opinions.

You do have a point as some one who bought an old racing boat for cruising, if you want to sail her near her capabilities you do have to work harder for it.

Then if you want to cruise trim the boat to the gusts not the lulls, we find doing this we still leave your average cruising boat behind. Maybe not as quickly but we still do it with cup of tea in hand...

For us the fun is in the sailing, we like a boat that can challenge us, that sails quicker than it motors, that does not have much in the way of cushions to keep dry, kept to t the basic's it works for us.

Is she the boat we dream of spending the summer on in the highlands of Scotland no. A week or 2 sailing is enough for us, but for what we use her for she is pretty much on the mark...

Fast fun and capable...

 

[Racecruiser]

Interesting to read this thread .....

I think IRC stipulating certain creature comforts like a cooker and berth cushions are very sensible (plus of course safety items). Flaming, surely even if you only do short day races you want a cuppa and you must sleep on board sometimes? It's a level field assuming everyone adheres and you can always protect cushions, woodwork etc with tape or covers. Winter and spring series usually say cushions can be removed.

Generally inshore/coastal races are ISAF Cat 4 and Offshore are Cat 3 - we do both in JOG and hire a liferaft and put a 2nd anchor on depending on what we are doing. We empty the water tanks inshore (filling bottles instead) and take a reasonable minimum in the tank offshore - fuel is never overfilled consistent with ISAF/JOG prescriptions for a minimum motoring time at cruising speed. We also have an old set of Dacron sails that go on for cruising. None of this is particularly onerous although replacing the main is not the work of a few minutes. We win some trophies and another Elan 295 Shooting Star won her IRC class in the RTI a few years ago.

As for boats that can compete at a high level in IRC and cruise, as others have said Elans (inc the Elan 37 Flaming sails could be one if so inclined), Sigma 33/38, J 109/120, Arconas etc manage to combine both but I concede not necessarily at the very highest level where you start to get into expensive Ker one-offs etc.

Oh and when looking at who/what is successful fully agree - look at IRC results not other less rigorous handicap systems.

 

[RobbieW]

... There is also an Arcona (I think, I'll have to try and research a bit) that did well in RiR (cant remember if that was ISC or IRC) but that boat was stripped of everything they didnt need to race the day before.

Arcona 400, did well in 2010/11 RiR with 31st & 15th placings but in ISC not IRC

 

[flaming]

Interesting to read this thread .....

I think IRC stipulating certain creature comforts like a cooker and berth cushions are very sensible (plus of course safety items). Flaming, surely even if you only do short day races you want a cuppa and you must sleep on board sometimes? It's a level field assuming everyone adheres and you can always protect cushions, woodwork etc with tape or covers. Winter and spring series usually say cushions can be removed.

We sometimes sleep on board when we go down to Dartmouth, otherwise no. And we just bring coffee in thermos mugs. Means you get good coffee, not instant muck! Up until 2 years back, whoever bought the boat next would have had to take the plastic covering off the inside of the oven.
I guess my point is that IRC aren't actually letting owners decide how to use the boat. We took the door to the forecabin off a few years back. It was just in the way, and ripping sailbags. We left it on the boat and strapped it down in the aft cabin. Being honest sailors we told the rating office. They hit us with a 4 point rating hike! Despite the fact that the door was still on the boat. How exactly did that make us 4 points quicker? It didn't of course, it's just a penalty designed so that people don't alter the cabins of cruiser racers. So obviously we put it back on. We used the table for the first time ever last year, and not to actually eat at, just to support the bottle of rum whilst we crowded round sat on spinnakers waiting for either the rain to stop or the fireworks to start. Can't take the damn thing off though.

As for boats that can compete at a high level in IRC and cruise, as others have said Elans (inc the Elan 37 Flaming sails could be one if so inclined), Sigma 33/38, J 109/120, Arconas etc manage to combine both but I concede not necessarily at the very highest level where you start to get into expensive Ker one-offs etc.

But my point is that no-one does. So why are we prevented from configuring the boat as we want it (and of course re-weighing if we've taken stuff off) just because of the ideal that people will win (or even compete at) the IRC nationals one week and cruise to the channel islands the following week. Do RORC still think that requiring everyone to leave the cabin of their cruiser racer as sold to them is encouraging participation?

I think it is perhaps different for the smaller sizes, but from the mid 30 foot bracket up, to family cruise on a boat set up to win races? No roller furling, no sprayhood, main on a bolt rope etc. No thanks.

 

[jac]

But my point is that no-one does. So why are we prevented from configuring the boat as we want it (and of course re-weighing if we've taken stuff off) just because of the ideal that people will win (or even compete at) the IRC nationals one week and cruise to the channel islands the following week. Do RORC still think that requiring everyone to leave the cabin of their cruiser racer as sold to them is encouraging participation?

I think it is perhaps different for the smaller sizes, but from the mid 30 foot bracket up, to family cruise on a boat set up to win races? No roller furling, no sprayhood, main on a bolt rope etc. No thanks.

Those 3 examples though are fairly quick to fix - I seem to remember some roller furling gear that simply unbolt to convert to a foil. Sprayhood is a simple matter to remove / fit, Main is slightly more work but how many would want to use racing sails for cruising.

Having the rest of the boat basically useable as a cruiser in theory should encourage people to participate. If every IRC boat was basically a bare shell with only structural fittings left then the gulf between cruiser & racer is too much.

I think it does show a fundamental problem with RORC in understanding firstly ARE there people who would like to compete in IRC more often and secondly - what is preventing them from doing so. I suspect that is driven more by the difficulties of having a competitive boat than the ability to lose weight. I.e. how many boat owners can afford brand new sets of high tech sails all the time, have the time to train a full crew ( or who have access to sufficient people with the commitment) the time to race a lot.

There may be some at the top of NHC who might want to challenge themselves and compete under IRC but I doubt there is huge untapped, viable demand

 

[lw395]

There have been plenty of rating schemes making no allowance for cruising comfort.
But everyone gravitated to CHS.

AIUI some clubs make local adjustments for taking the cushions off, particularly in Winter series?

There's only one cure when you get disillusioned with handicaps, that's one design racing!

 

[flaming]

Having the rest of the boat basically useable as a cruiser in theory should encourage people to participate. If every IRC boat was basically a bare shell with only structural fittings left then the gulf between cruiser & racer is too much.

But this is the point - as this thread illustrates - nobody has been able to come up with any examples of people that race IRC competitively AND cruise that same boat. So the current ethos of encouraging dual use boats to race IRC isn't working, as there aren't any! All that's happening is that keen racers cannot modify the interior of their boat to suit their needs. We can modify the exterior, add tweakers, inhaulers, uprated cordage, nice sails etc with no change to the rating. Stuff that does make the boat go faster makes no change to the rating, is massively expensive and does nothing to encourage participation by the cruiser if they don't have it - is a barrier in effect. But at the same time relocating a door to the aft cabin to stop it getting damaged is a 4 point hit!

 

[lw395]

But this is the point - as this thread illustrates - nobody has been able to come up with any examples of people that race IRC competitively AND cruise that same boat. .....!

Cheeki Rafiki?